A lurker here, but hopefully no more. I am writing here seeking some advice, but I think I might as well introduce myself first.
My name is Scott Yang, a software developer based in Sydney. I guess you can probably find out more about me by googling my name. I have basically gone through two startups. Back in '98 to mid 2000, I was an employee of an online gaming startup over here in Sydney, ended up being a team leader of their backend architecture team doing Java on Solaris boxes. However online gaming is not something I really want to get involved with, so I quit after two years (and before the .com burst :) Count that as half a startup under my records.
In 2001 a few colleagues from another company I worked for started our own software company servicing the financial planners. It was pretty much started from scratch coding-from-your-own-bedroom kind of style. It grew in size, got a few clients, and then in 2003 the company got acquired by an ASX listed company, and it had grown A LOT ever since. Well, it wasn't really an "exit strategy" for me because I am currently still working as a software architect in that company (doing mostly Python + front-end HTML/JS there), enjoying the office environment, employee benefits, stable income, share option, etc. However I got lots of idea in my head (+ I can code :) and maybe -- maybe one day I will be back in the loop starting something new again.
I started blogging in ~2000 and being a bargain-lover, I started blogging about bargains in Australia since 2005. That blog started to grow and after some positive response from some of my readers, I decided to transform the site into a community site instead in October 2006 -- *OzBargain.com.au*, which is a bargain-sharing/voting community website, with most of the content user-generated. Similar to FatWallet or SlickDeals in US + Digg/Reddit style voting, but for us Aussies.
That site has enjoyed some slow but steady growth over the last 2 and half years -- mostly viral with no advertisement, no PR, and a little bit of SEO. Last month it has grown to around 2.8 million page views with a nice side income through Google AdSense (although still a lot less than my day job). I still got tons of idea that I would like to implement -- if only I have the time! (not that easy when you have a demanding day job, wife, 2 kids, church, etc to look after). But again, who knows what will happen :)
-=-=-=-=-=-
The real reason for me to write this email is to seek some advice (probably legal ones) on "defamation" made on a user generated content site, which in this case is OzBargain.
What happened was that one of the merchants who posted offers on my website DOES NOT like the idea that his offer gets voted down, and he has deemed the comments from our members "defamotory" (although far from it in my dictionary). He has now decided to sue us + file defamation action with fair trading (as though I am actually trading). If he has decided to sue us -- then it is okay as we'll settle in court. But instead he has bombarded me with threatening emails with abusive comments, called my manager at work (but I was in annual today so didn't reach me), etc. While I am writing this he has sent three one-line threatening emails.
I guess instead of waiting for court order, I might just call the police instead. But just in case that the user-generated content site actually gets sued, what kind of legal action do I have? Classic case might be Whirlpool vs. 2Clix but I did not the follow the case so not sure how WP got away at the end. Can anyone suggest who will be the best people to contact in Sydney?
I know that there might be some IANAL response, and it might not be a good idea discuss it on a public newsgroup. If you know anything, feel free to email me directly at sco...@yang.id.au
Scott, from running a site where people leave reviews of others
(homethinking.com) I can say that I have probably been threatened with
legal action 20-30 times and not one of them has actually followed
through and sued. It is used as a threat and usually is just borne
from a frustration.
In your case, if you don't care that much, just simply remove all
deals from the merchant from the site and tell them that they will
never appear on your site again. That usually works.
Other than that, they can't actually sue you, they can only sue the
people who voted down. Not sure about in Australia but in the US there
is the Federal Communications Decency Act.
As well as regulating porn it also regulates liability in the case of
the person providing a forum (review site, news site, forum site etc.)
and those who post in the forum. See Section 230:
"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be
treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by
another information content provider"
Again, if the above doesn't work, just forward them that and there are
any number of other examples you can search for that should show them
they have absolutely no chance of succeeding (at least in suing you).
On Jul 1, 7:20 pm, Scott Yang <sco...@yang.id.au> wrote:
> A lurker here, but hopefully no more. I am writing here seeking some advice,
> but I think I might as well introduce myself first.
> My name is Scott Yang, a software developer based in Sydney. I guess you can
> probably find out more about me by googling my name. I have basically gone
> through two startups. Back in '98 to mid 2000, I was an employee of an
> online gaming startup over here in Sydney, ended up being a team leader of
> their backend architecture team doing Java on Solaris boxes. However online
> gaming is not something I really want to get involved with, so I quit after
> two years (and before the .com burst :) Count that as half a startup under
> my records.
> In 2001 a few colleagues from another company I worked for started our own
> software company servicing the financial planners. It was pretty much
> started from scratch coding-from-your-own-bedroom kind of style. It grew in
> size, got a few clients, and then in 2003 the company got acquired by an ASX
> listed company, and it had grown A LOT ever since. Well, it wasn't really an
> "exit strategy" for me because I am currently still working as a software
> architect in that company (doing mostly Python + front-end HTML/JS there),
> enjoying the office environment, employee benefits, stable income, share
> option, etc. However I got lots of idea in my head (+ I can code :) and
> maybe -- maybe one day I will be back in the loop starting something new
> again.
> I started blogging in ~2000 and being a bargain-lover, I started blogging
> about bargains in Australia since 2005. That blog started to grow and after
> some positive response from some of my readers, I decided to transform the
> site into a community site instead in October 2006 -- *OzBargain.com.au*,
> which is a bargain-sharing/voting community website, with most of the
> content user-generated. Similar to FatWallet or SlickDeals in US +
> Digg/Reddit style voting, but for us Aussies.
> That site has enjoyed some slow but steady growth over the last 2 and half
> years -- mostly viral with no advertisement, no PR, and a little bit of SEO.
> Last month it has grown to around 2.8 million page views with a nice side
> income through Google AdSense (although still a lot less than my day job). I
> still got tons of idea that I would like to implement -- if only I have the
> time! (not that easy when you have a demanding day job, wife, 2 kids,
> church, etc to look after). But again, who knows what will happen :)
> -=-=-=-=-=-
> The real reason for me to write this email is to seek some advice (probably
> legal ones) on "defamation" made on a user generated content site, which in
> this case is OzBargain.
> What happened was that one of the merchants who posted offers on my website
> DOES NOT like the idea that his offer gets voted down, and he has deemed the
> comments from our members "defamotory" (although far from it in my
> dictionary). He has now decided to sue us + file defamation action with fair
> trading (as though I am actually trading). If he has decided to sue us --
> then it is okay as we'll settle in court. But instead he has bombarded me
> with threatening emails with abusive comments, called my manager at work
> (but I was in annual today so didn't reach me), etc. While I am writing this
> he has sent three one-line threatening emails.
> I guess instead of waiting for court order, I might just call the police
> instead. But just in case that the user-generated content site actually gets
> sued, what kind of legal action do I have? Classic case might be Whirlpool
> vs. 2Clix but I did not the follow the case so not sure how WP got away at
> the end. Can anyone suggest who will be the best people to contact in
> Sydney?
> I know that there might be some IANAL response, and it might not be a good
> idea discuss it on a public newsgroup. If you know anything, feel free to
> email me directly at sco...@yang.id.au
...and then add their email address to your junk senders list and tell your boss you've got a nutter stalker so that any future calls aren't career limiting for you...
-----Original Message-----
From: silicon-beach-australia@googlegroups.com [mailto:silicon-beach-australia@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Niki Scevak
Sent: Thursday, 2 July 2009 6:59 AM
To: Silicon Beach Australia
Subject: [SiliconBeach] Re: Introducing Myself + Advice Needed on "Defamation" on User Generated Content Site
Scott, from running a site where people leave reviews of others
(homethinking.com) I can say that I have probably been threatened with
legal action 20-30 times and not one of them has actually followed
through and sued. It is used as a threat and usually is just borne
from a frustration.
In your case, if you don't care that much, just simply remove all
deals from the merchant from the site and tell them that they will
never appear on your site again. That usually works.
Other than that, they can't actually sue you, they can only sue the
people who voted down. Not sure about in Australia but in the US there
is the Federal Communications Decency Act.
As well as regulating porn it also regulates liability in the case of
the person providing a forum (review site, news site, forum site etc.)
and those who post in the forum. See Section 230:
"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be
treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by
another information content provider"
Again, if the above doesn't work, just forward them that and there are
any number of other examples you can search for that should show them
they have absolutely no chance of succeeding (at least in suing you).
On Jul 1, 7:20 pm, Scott Yang <sco...@yang.id.au> wrote:
> Hi Silicon Beach Australia,
> A lurker here, but hopefully no more. I am writing here seeking some advice,
> but I think I might as well introduce myself first.
> My name is Scott Yang, a software developer based in Sydney. I guess you can
> probably find out more about me by googling my name. I have basically gone
> through two startups. Back in '98 to mid 2000, I was an employee of an
> online gaming startup over here in Sydney, ended up being a team leader of
> their backend architecture team doing Java on Solaris boxes. However online
> gaming is not something I really want to get involved with, so I quit after
> two years (and before the .com burst :) Count that as half a startup under
> my records.
> In 2001 a few colleagues from another company I worked for started our own
> software company servicing the financial planners. It was pretty much
> started from scratch coding-from-your-own-bedroom kind of style. It grew in
> size, got a few clients, and then in 2003 the company got acquired by an ASX
> listed company, and it had grown A LOT ever since. Well, it wasn't really an
> "exit strategy" for me because I am currently still working as a software
> architect in that company (doing mostly Python + front-end HTML/JS there),
> enjoying the office environment, employee benefits, stable income, share
> option, etc. However I got lots of idea in my head (+ I can code :) and
> maybe -- maybe one day I will be back in the loop starting something new
> again.
> I started blogging in ~2000 and being a bargain-lover, I started blogging
> about bargains in Australia since 2005. That blog started to grow and after
> some positive response from some of my readers, I decided to transform the
> site into a community site instead in October 2006 -- *OzBargain.com.au*,
> which is a bargain-sharing/voting community website, with most of the
> content user-generated. Similar to FatWallet or SlickDeals in US +
> Digg/Reddit style voting, but for us Aussies.
> That site has enjoyed some slow but steady growth over the last 2 and half
> years -- mostly viral with no advertisement, no PR, and a little bit of SEO.
> Last month it has grown to around 2.8 million page views with a nice side
> income through Google AdSense (although still a lot less than my day job). I
> still got tons of idea that I would like to implement -- if only I have the
> time! (not that easy when you have a demanding day job, wife, 2 kids,
> church, etc to look after). But again, who knows what will happen :)
> -=-=-=-=-=-
> The real reason for me to write this email is to seek some advice (probably
> legal ones) on "defamation" made on a user generated content site, which in
> this case is OzBargain.
> What happened was that one of the merchants who posted offers on my website
> DOES NOT like the idea that his offer gets voted down, and he has deemed the
> comments from our members "defamotory" (although far from it in my
> dictionary). He has now decided to sue us + file defamation action with fair
> trading (as though I am actually trading). If he has decided to sue us --
> then it is okay as we'll settle in court. But instead he has bombarded me
> with threatening emails with abusive comments, called my manager at work
> (but I was in annual today so didn't reach me), etc. While I am writing this
> he has sent three one-line threatening emails.
> I guess instead of waiting for court order, I might just call the police
> instead. But just in case that the user-generated content site actually gets
> sued, what kind of legal action do I have? Classic case might be Whirlpool
> vs. 2Clix but I did not the follow the case so not sure how WP got away at
> the end. Can anyone suggest who will be the best people to contact in
> Sydney?
> I know that there might be some IANAL response, and it might not be a good
> idea discuss it on a public newsgroup. If you know anything, feel free to
> email me directly at sco...@yang.id.au
Thanks for all the suggestions. And sorry for those trying to tell me how to run my business -- thanks for the suggestion but I do not think that I'll categorise it as a proper "business" yet. More like a very time draining hobby :)
I think the likeliness of getting sued is pretty low now because of the amount of threatening emails he has sent me over the last 24 hours (30+) which involves impersonating me on hate websites claiming that I am anti-gay, anti-jew, anti-muslim, etc etc & trying to get my current work place into trouble with above false claims. If any lawsuit is happening it'll be more likely me suing him instead, but I don't think I want to go there.
I have reported to the police and will be very quiet now on the Internet (i.e. no tweeting no blogging for me for next next couple of days).
I'm probably chiming in a little late here, but given some of the
other responses it's probably warranted. For background I've been
threatened a number of times in the past for things I've written, and
commenters have written, so I have some experience in the matter.
The key consideration here though is where the site is hosted, then we
get to liability between you writing it, and you hosting it.
If the site is hosted in the United States the law is very clear cut:
a fair review of a service is protected free speech, even where that
criticism is disparaging and results in a loss of business. There is
also liability protection in the case that a user left the comment vs
you as well, after all Facebook or Google would be in court 100 times
a day if liability for a comment was transfered to the owner of the
site.
If hosted in Australia it's not quite as clear cut, although without
the same free speech protections a review would normally be fine even
where it was bad. after all, a newspapers can publish a negative
review without legal issue. There's a line there of course: if the
review was clearly defamatory (such as "the owner is a pedophile")
then there may be grounds for a defamation case, although whether
liability would rest with you or the commenter I'm not sure of as I'm
not as up on the Australian laws as I am with the US ones (I'd think
not, but without 100% certainty.) Also remember that the truth is
accepted as a defense in these cases: you can't defame someone in
Australia if what you say is the truth, even if it was your opinion of
the truth (within reason.) Indeed truth is the argument I've put to
the three times I've been threatened over reviews I've written
personally..and I've never been sued once.
You then have a jurisdiction problem as well. Even if the site is
hosted in the United States, you could be held liable in Australia
(Victoria in particular thx to Gutnik vs Dow Jones) but outside of
Victoria you could put up a fair argument that publication takes place
at the location of the server.
Hope this helps to some degree. I'd be surprised if the person could
personally sue you for something you didn't write, even where you host
the comment. If he is harassing you, you've done the right thing in
going to the police, but if it was me I'd personally consider
publishing his emails, whether yourself, through another blog, or go
to the papers. The problem with people like this is that they bully
small operators knowing that in most cases sites will cave because we
can't afford the possibility of a legal case (I've had to back down on
a number of copyright claims for this very reason, even where I
believe I was in the right). But I've always named names and shamed
those who threaten me, because they need to learn that their threats
have consequences, and when enough of us stand up to people like this,
the BS may not perhaps stop, but we'll see a lot less of this rubbish
occur. Not telling you how to run your business by any stretch, but
I'd encourage you to go public with the issue.
Most of all though: don't pull the reviews if you can help it. Caving
in means that it's easier for the next guy to get the better of you.
"These types of claims are very worrying for the high levels of
uncertainty that they impose on forum operators. In the US, Section
230 of the Communications Decency Act essentially immunises forum
operators from defamation claims like this one, but no such strong
protection exists in Australia. This lack of certainty effectively
provides an incentive for those who feel aggrieved by posts on a
public forum to seek damages against the operators of the forum, even
where the operators have complied by removing the allegedly defamatory
material."
James
On Jul 10, 4:17 pm, Duncan Riley <niche...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'm probably chiming in a little late here, but given some of the
> other responses it's probably warranted. For background I've been
> threatened a number of times in the past for things I've written, and
> commenters have written, so I have some experience in the matter.
> The key consideration here though is where the site is hosted, then we
> get to liability between you writing it, and you hosting it.
> If the site is hosted in the United States the law is very clear cut:
> a fair review of a service is protected free speech, even where that
> criticism is disparaging and results in a loss of business. There is
> also liability protection in the case that a user left the comment vs
> you as well, after all Facebook or Google would be in court 100 times
> a day if liability for a comment was transfered to the owner of the
> site.
> If hosted in Australia it's not quite as clear cut, although without
> the same free speech protections a review would normally be fine even
> where it was bad. after all, a newspapers can publish a negative
> review without legal issue. There's a line there of course: if the
> review was clearly defamatory (such as "the owner is a pedophile")
> then there may be grounds for a defamation case, although whether
> liability would rest with you or the commenter I'm not sure of as I'm
> not as up on the Australian laws as I am with the US ones (I'd think
> not, but without 100% certainty.) Also remember that the truth is
> accepted as a defense in these cases: you can't defame someone in
> Australia if what you say is the truth, even if it was your opinion of
> the truth (within reason.) Indeed truth is the argument I've put to
> the three times I've been threatened over reviews I've written
> personally..and I've never been sued once.
> You then have a jurisdiction problem as well. Even if the site is
> hosted in the United States, you could be held liable in Australia
> (Victoria in particular thx to Gutnik vs Dow Jones) but outside of
> Victoria you could put up a fair argument that publication takes place
> at the location of the server.
> Hope this helps to some degree. I'd be surprised if the person could
> personally sue you for something you didn't write, even where you host
> the comment. If he is harassing you, you've done the right thing in
> going to the police, but if it was me I'd personally consider
> publishing his emails, whether yourself, through another blog, or go
> to the papers. The problem with people like this is that they bully
> small operators knowing that in most cases sites will cave because we
> can't afford the possibility of a legal case (I've had to back down on
> a number of copyright claims for this very reason, even where I
> believe I was in the right). But I've always named names and shamed
> those who threaten me, because they need to learn that their threats
> have consequences, and when enough of us stand up to people like this,
> the BS may not perhaps stop, but we'll see a lot less of this rubbish
> occur. Not telling you how to run your business by any stretch, but
> I'd encourage you to go public with the issue.
> Most of all though: don't pull the reviews if you can help it. Caving
> in means that it's easier for the next guy to get the better of you.
> Basically, if you allow comment on your website and you live here, you are
open for the same troubles as I am having. Even if your site is hosted OS.
Got your own blog? Be very worried. Even after we complied with their
lawyers demands they are still coming after me and the Broadcasting Act
allows them.
Worrying for people operating content sites serving mostly Australians...
> "These types of claims are very worrying for the high levels of
> uncertainty that they impose on forum operators. In the US, Section
> 230 of the Communications Decency Act essentially immunises forum
> operators from defamation claims like this one, but no such strong
> protection exists in Australia. This lack of certainty effectively
> provides an incentive for those who feel aggrieved by posts on a
> public forum to seek damages against the operators of the forum, even
> where the operators have complied by removing the allegedly defamatory
> material."
> James
> On Jul 10, 4:17 pm, Duncan Riley <niche...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Scott
> > I'm probably chiming in a little late here, but given some of the
> > other responses it's probably warranted. For background I've been
> > threatened a number of times in the past for things I've written, and
> > commenters have written, so I have some experience in the matter.
> > The key consideration here though is where the site is hosted, then we
> > get to liability between you writing it, and you hosting it.
> > If the site is hosted in the United States the law is very clear cut:
> > a fair review of a service is protected free speech, even where that
> > criticism is disparaging and results in a loss of business. There is
> > also liability protection in the case that a user left the comment vs
> > you as well, after all Facebook or Google would be in court 100 times
> > a day if liability for a comment was transfered to the owner of the
> > site.
> > If hosted in Australia it's not quite as clear cut, although without
> > the same free speech protections a review would normally be fine even
> > where it was bad. after all, a newspapers can publish a negative
> > review without legal issue. There's a line there of course: if the
> > review was clearly defamatory (such as "the owner is a pedophile")
> > then there may be grounds for a defamation case, although whether
> > liability would rest with you or the commenter I'm not sure of as I'm
> > not as up on the Australian laws as I am with the US ones (I'd think
> > not, but without 100% certainty.) Also remember that the truth is
> > accepted as a defense in these cases: you can't defame someone in
> > Australia if what you say is the truth, even if it was your opinion of
> > the truth (within reason.) Indeed truth is the argument I've put to
> > the three times I've been threatened over reviews I've written
> > personally..and I've never been sued once.
> > You then have a jurisdiction problem as well. Even if the site is
> > hosted in the United States, you could be held liable in Australia
> > (Victoria in particular thx to Gutnik vs Dow Jones) but outside of
> > Victoria you could put up a fair argument that publication takes place
> > at the location of the server.
> > Hope this helps to some degree. I'd be surprised if the person could
> > personally sue you for something you didn't write, even where you host
> > the comment. If he is harassing you, you've done the right thing in
> > going to the police, but if it was me I'd personally consider
> > publishing his emails, whether yourself, through another blog, or go
> > to the papers. The problem with people like this is that they bully
> > small operators knowing that in most cases sites will cave because we
> > can't afford the possibility of a legal case (I've had to back down on
> > a number of copyright claims for this very reason, even where I
> > believe I was in the right). But I've always named names and shamed
> > those who threaten me, because they need to learn that their threats
> > have consequences, and when enough of us stand up to people like this,
> > the BS may not perhaps stop, but we'll see a lot less of this rubbish
> > occur. Not telling you how to run your business by any stretch, but
> > I'd encourage you to go public with the issue.
> > Most of all though: don't pull the reviews if you can help it. Caving
> > in means that it's easier for the next guy to get the better of you.
|
