> Don't waste your time, Michael. Jamie, Nymbecile, etc., have NO CLUE > as to why/how a GFCI works... their ignorance approaches that of > Slowman... almost... nobody exceeds Slowman when it comes to flat-out > ignorance and stubborn adherence to ignorant positions ;-)
Come on Jim. We all know that Bill taught pigs to be ignorant. :)
> >> My EE colleagues are correct when they asked me why I even bother to > >>read these forums. They have dropped in here from time to time, only > >> to not come back after seeing the idiots that pollute this area with > >>their ignorance and child's play.
> > I kinda figure... the SNR here is at least as good as IEEE journals these days > > (particularly when it comes to *applied* electronics design), and certainly > > far more entertaining on occasion!
> > This is a bit of a thresholding effect, though -- years ago when significantly > > more people read this group, the SNR was rather higher. Sadly, Usenet in > > general is slowly dying.
> Yes, it's a shame that Usenet is going the way of the trash can.
> As you get along in life, you start to > wonder, where at what point do you start falling > behind to those younger people coming up in the ranks?
> After what I've seen here lately, I can say that I sleep very well at > night.
Morons always do.
> I used to monitor these groups at work how ever, It put me to much > in a pissy mood after watching the children here. Besides, the IT guys > were convinced that some how I was going to introduce a virus into their > system by interacting with UseNet.. Maybe they know something I don't ? > Oh well.
> >>>On Nov 1, 9:38 pm, ehsjr <eh...@nospamverizon.net> wrote:
> >>>>Jamie wrote:
> >>>><snip>
> >>>>>The older homes used armor/Bx type wire most of the time, that supplies > >>>>>the ground. Not a good one but one good enough for a GFCI most of the > >>>>>time. > >>>>> And there are still homes with knob & tube still in service.. think > >>>>>about those who have put in U-ground receptacles that have no ground.
> >>>>>As stated before, GCFI do not work with out a ground.
> >>>>Jamie, That is simply not true.
> >>>>GFCIs *DO NOT* need a ground to work.
> >>>>Ed
> >>>Also: If you can't get a ground wire to the box, you have no business > >>>putting a U-ground outlet in there. You can run a coper wire back to > >>>the water pipe taking any route that works.
> >>>BTW: I took a GFI apart. The black and white go through a core a > >>>couple of times in the same direction. Many turns on the core hook to > >>>the electronics. The electronics drives a coil that yanks the trigger > >>>out on the thing that goes "snap". The green wire does not go into > >>>the area.
> >> The ground is not connected to the electronics in a GFCI receptacle.
> >> The idea is to have the balanced circuit come into contact with a > >>ground at the appliance. This will unbalance the circuit..
> >> of course, this won't work if the appliance does not have a ground one > >>way of another.
> >> Some GFCI's are designed to trip any way if the balanced current > >>saturates the core and thus generates enough mag field to snap the > >> latch.
> > What a blithering dumbass you are, Maynard. If the two wire device > > has more than the GFCI's rated leakage, the GFCI will trip. In that > > case, something has to allow current flow. Since there is no chassis > > ground, it can be through a person but it will trip before it can hurt > > you.
> I don't normally resort to childish words but!
everything yo do is childish. You think you know more then the manufacturers of GFCIs and the NEC.
> You are a retard..
Yawn.
> Fight with what you know about. At least it'll keep you quit > for a long time to come.
It will take forever for you to post anything without a lot of errors.
> >> Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
> >From BCHydro The first Para from the FACTS pdf
> >"What is a ground fault?
> >Normally, electricity flows in a circuit from the > >“hot” wire through the electrical equipment in > >your home, then back to the utility through a > >“neutral” wire. A circuit can also be completed > >when electrical current runs from the hot wire to > >ground. Have you ever experienced an electric > >shock? If you did, it probably happened because > >your hand or some other part of your body > >contacted a source of electrical current and your > >body provided a path for the electrical current to > >go to the ground, so that you received a shock. This > >rare, unexpected condition is called a “Ground Fault."
> >For a summary an earth ground isn't needed for GFCI to work as > >intended. Protect people from shocks.
> >> Take my word for it. > >> You need a ground, unless you want to user (person) to be the ground > >>for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line > >>through them? > >> The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI circuit > >>will become unbalanced and trip. > >[snip]
> Thank you, Hammy!
> But I'll bet you that Jamie still doesn't understand :-)
Maynard (his real name) still doesn't understand why the sun rises every morning. That's the reason he posts under a sock puppet, in an attempt to hide his ignorance. :(
<jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote: >Sorry, not to start a flame war, I don't need reading on a subject that > I worked in years ago before it became a mandate for CFGI's..
> I didn't work doing anything for residential but it was for industrial >applications to detect ground faults in circuits for fast disconnects.
> The methods used today for residential or where ever these services >apply, work the same way.
> This is old school for me..
> But nice of you to post it, in any case. I'm sure others can get >something out of it.
> Btw, I see my working years winding down and have been consulting > with a retired Electrical instructor which still gives adult courses >and is currently an active state inspector, along with being on the > NEC comity. He has been trying to convince me I should become a >part time Code/State inspector after my retirement. Where by, I can > retire early and do that part time.
> I have gone out with him on a few inspections to get a feel for how >its conducted in other places other than where I've worked over the >years. After seeing some of the emotional out burst from some of the >people when he rejects something, makes me wonder if I want to be in >the line of fire.
> Currently, my line or work involves HV equipment that produce > up to 5Mev for irradiation xlinking. etc.. Along with alot of other > industrial processing equipment with micro-controller operations, >building custom circuits for special operations etc..
> I don't see my self finding this kind of work at retirement out of my >home! ;)
> It kind of makes me wonder what other people do at retirement, of >this line of work?
Huh?
I'm not intrested in a flame war either but your wrong everyone is once in a while it's not the end of the world.
The earth ground in the outlet has nothing to do with the GFCI.The current is sensed in the line and neutral any differences as low as a couple mA means the current is flowing through somwhere or someone else to ground (ground fault) and the GFCI trips.
>> Don't waste your time, Michael. Jamie, Nymbecile, etc., have NO CLUE >> as to why/how a GFCI works... their ignorance approaches that of >> Slowman... almost... nobody exceeds Slowman when it comes to flat-out >> ignorance and stubborn adherence to ignorant positions ;-)
> Come on Jim. We all know that Bill taught pigs to be ignorant. :)
I thought Slowman was attempting to teach pigs to fly ?:-)
...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
Obama says, "I AM NOT a cry baby, Fox REALLY IS out to get me!"
>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:59:19 -0500, Jamie >> <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:
>>> Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
>> From BCHydro The first Para from the FACTS pdf
>> "What is a ground fault?
>> Normally, electricity flows in a circuit from the >> “hot” wire through the electrical equipment in >> your home, then back to the utility through a >> “neutral” wire. A circuit can also be completed >> when electrical current runs from the hot wire to >> ground. Have you ever experienced an electric >> shock? If you did, it probably happened because >> your hand or some other part of your body >> contacted a source of electrical current and your >> body provided a path for the electrical current to >> go to the ground, so that you received a shock. This >> rare, unexpected condition is called a “Ground Fault."
>> For a summary an earth ground isn't needed for GFCI to work as >> intended. Protect people from shocks.
>>> Take my word for it. >>> You need a ground, unless you want to user (person) to be the >>> ground >>>for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line >>>through them? >>> The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI >>> circuit >>>will become unbalanced and trip.
>> [snip] > Sorry, not to start a flame war, I don't need reading on a subject > that > I worked in years ago before it became a mandate for CFGI's..
> I didn't work doing anything for residential but it was for > industrial > applications to detect ground faults in circuits for fast disconnects.
> The methods used today for residential or where ever these services > apply, work the same way.
> This is old school for me..
> But nice of you to post it, in any case. I'm sure others can get > something out of it.
> Btw, I see my working years winding down and have been consulting > with a retired Electrical instructor which still gives adult courses > and is currently an active state inspector, along with being on the > NEC comity. He has been trying to convince me I should become a > part time Code/State inspector after my retirement. Where by, I can > retire early and do that part time.
> I have gone out with him on a few inspections to get a feel for > how > its conducted in other places other than where I've worked over the > years. After seeing some of the emotional out burst from some of the > people when he rejects something, makes me wonder if I want to be in > the line of fire.
> Currently, my line or work involves HV equipment that produce > up to 5Mev for irradiation xlinking. etc.. Along with alot of other > industrial processing equipment with micro-controller operations, > building custom circuits for special operations etc..
> I don't see my self finding this kind of work at retirement out of > my > home! ;)
> It kind of makes me wonder what other people do at retirement, of > this line of work?
We work at doing the things that we enjoy ! If it makes a little money great, if not we enjoyed it anyway.
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 23:48:26 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell" > <mike.terr...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >Jim Thompson wrote:
> >> Don't waste your time, Michael. Jamie, Nymbecile, etc., have NO CLUE > >> as to why/how a GFCI works... their ignorance approaches that of > >> Slowman... almost... nobody exceeds Slowman when it comes to flat-out > >> ignorance and stubborn adherence to ignorant positions ;-)
> > Come on Jim. We all know that Bill taught pigs to be ignorant. :)
> I thought Slowman was attempting to teach pigs to fly ?:-)
Only because he's too lazy to walk to the kitchen when he's hungry.
>>> The older homes used armor/Bx type wire most of the time, that >>> supplies the ground. Not a good one but one good enough for a GFCI >>> most of the >>> time. >>> And there are still homes with knob & tube still in service.. think >>> about those who have put in U-ground receptacles that have no ground.
>>> As stated before, GCFI do not work with out a ground.
>> Jamie, That is simply not true.
>> GFCIs *DO NOT* need a ground to work.
>> Ed
> Oh really..
Yes, really.
> Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
Because it is intended to protect personnel from a current through themselves to ground.
> Take my word for it.
Absolutely not. Your word is wrong. Here's a diagram of wiring that requires no ground and no fault to ground for the GFCI to trip:
You can wire it for yourself to test and prove to yourself that no ground is required for a GFCI to work.
By the way, the diagram above is representative of how the test circuit inside the GFCI is set up. In other words, every GFCI with a test switch includes a circuit that makes the GFCI trip with NO ground connection.
> You need a ground,
As conclusively proven above you do not need a ground for a GFCI to work.
> unless you want to user (person) to be the ground > for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line > through them? > The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI circuit > will become unbalanced and trip.
Absolute bullshit. Electric frying pans, toasters, can openers etc that have two prong plugs with no ground, are protected by the (code reguired) GFCI receptacle(s) serving the counter top in the kitchen.
You can easily prove these things to yourself. Do not take my word on it. Do some looking, and some thinking, and you will learn something.
A GFCI will trip on a difference of current between the hot and the neutral. The typical GFCI will trip at about 5mA difference. It does not matter what creates that difference: if it exists, the GFCI will trip.
> I suppose the appliance it self can have a external ground that makes > its way back to the same ground the service is on, but would you want to > gamble on that?
> Now, if you are referring to arc breakers, which are not GFCI. Then I > might agree.
> Arc breakers will trip on an arch how ever, they are a problem in some > environments to use.
> P.S.
> There are some brand of GFCI receptacles that do trip on a balanced > over load. Normally, when it passes its rating for the receptacle.
>>> My EE colleagues are correct when they asked me why I even bother to >>>read these forums. They have dropped in here from time to time, only >>> to not come back after seeing the idiots that pollute this area with >>>their ignorance and child's play.
>> I kinda figure... the SNR here is at least as good as IEEE journals these days >> (particularly when it comes to *applied* electronics design), and certainly >> far more entertaining on occasion!
>> This is a bit of a thresholding effect, though -- years ago when significantly >> more people read this group, the SNR was rather higher. Sadly, Usenet in >> general is slowly dying.
>Yes, it's a shame that Usenet is going the way of the trash can.
--- If it is, the blame can only be laid on the shoulders of knuckle-dragging buffoons like you who, even when they're presented with incontrovertible evidence to support that fact, are so stupid they can't understand it and insist on trying to prove to their betters that they aren't. ---
> As you get along in life, you start to >wonder, where at what point do you start falling >behind to those younger people coming up in the ranks?
> After what I've seen here lately, I can say that I sleep very well at >night.
--- After what you've posted here lately, it seems you're asleep about 26 hours a day. ---
> I used to monitor these groups at work how ever, It put me to much >in a pissy mood after watching the children here. Besides, the IT guys >were convinced that some how I was going to introduce a virus into their >system by interacting with UseNet.. Maybe they know something I don't ?
>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:59:19 -0500, Jamie >> <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:
>>> Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
>> From BCHydro The first Para from the FACTS pdf
>> "What is a ground fault?
>> Normally, electricity flows in a circuit from the >> “hot” wire through the electrical equipment in >> your home, then back to the utility through a >> “neutral” wire. A circuit can also be completed >> when electrical current runs from the hot wire to >> ground. Have you ever experienced an electric >> shock? If you did, it probably happened because >> your hand or some other part of your body >> contacted a source of electrical current and your >> body provided a path for the electrical current to >> go to the ground, so that you received a shock. This >> rare, unexpected condition is called a “Ground Fault."
>> For a summary an earth ground isn't needed for GFCI to work as >> intended. Protect people from shocks.
>>> Take my word for it. >>> You need a ground, unless you want to user (person) to be the ground >>>for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line >>>through them? >>> The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI circuit >>>will become unbalanced and trip.
>> [snip] >Sorry, not to start a flame war, I don't need reading on a subject that > I worked in years ago before it became a mandate for CFGI's..
--- Obviously, you do, since there is no dedicated ground conductor required for a GFCI to work properly.
All that's required for the circuit to trip, and break the hot connection, is that the current in the hot lead be different from the current in the neutral lead. ---
> I didn't work doing anything for residential but it was for industrial >applications to detect ground faults in circuits for fast disconnects.
--- What exactly did you do? ---
> The methods used today for residential or where ever these services >apply, work the same way.
--- If they do, then the commercial applications you're referring to don't, since residential devices don't need a dedicated ground conductor to work properly. ---
> This is old school for me..
--- But you obviously napped in class, so the conclusions you've come to are fatally flawed. ---
> But nice of you to post it, in any case. I'm sure others can get >something out of it.
--- Too late for you though, huh?
Fixed in your ways and unwilling to bend because of pride, you refuse to allow the neuron pathways you treasure, and which have led you to steadfastly cling to the path which will surely lead you into the abyss, to be rerouted. ---
> Btw, I see my working years winding down and have been consulting > with a retired Electrical instructor which still gives adult courses >and is currently an active state inspector, along with being on the > NEC comity. He has been trying to convince me I should become a >part time Code/State inspector after my retirement. Where by, I can > retire early and do that part time.
--- I think, since you don't even know how a GFCI works, (well, maybe you do now since everyone in the world has explained it to you) that's a very, very bad idea. ---
> I have gone out with him on a few inspections to get a feel for how >its conducted in other places other than where I've worked over the >years. After seeing some of the emotional out burst from some of the >people when he rejects something, makes me wonder if I want to be in >the line of fire.
--- I wouldn't worry about it since the level of competence you display in your posts might easily let the house burn down with no witnesses left to cast the blame on the inspector. ---
> Currently, my line or work involves HV equipment that produce > up to 5Mev for irradiation xlinking. etc.. Along with alot of other > industrial processing equipment with micro-controller operations, >building custom circuits for special operations etc..
--- "Building" seems to be the keyword here, although you sneakily allude to greater responsibility in order to exalt your persona.
What, exactly, do you do? ---
> I don't see my self finding this kind of work at retirement out of my >home! ;)
--- Wise choice, IMO. ---
> It kind of makes me wonder what other people do at retirement, of >this line of work?
>>>> The older homes used armor/Bx type wire most of the time, that >>>> supplies the ground. Not a good one but one good enough for a GFCI >>>> most of the >>>> time. >>>> And there are still homes with knob & tube still in service.. think >>>> about those who have put in U-ground receptacles that have no ground.
>>>> As stated before, GCFI do not work with out a ground.
>>> Jamie, That is simply not true.
>>> GFCIs *DO NOT* need a ground to work.
>>> Ed
>> Oh really..
>Yes, really.
>> Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
>Because it is intended to protect personnel from a current >through themselves to ground.
>> Take my word for it.
>Absolutely not. Your word is wrong. Here's a diagram of >wiring that requires no ground and no fault to ground >for the GFCI to trip:
>You can wire it for yourself to test and prove to yourself that >no ground is required for a GFCI to work.
>By the way, the diagram above is representative of how the >test circuit inside the GFCI is set up. In other words, >every GFCI with a test switch includes a circuit that makes >the GFCI trip with NO ground connection.
>> You need a ground,
>As conclusively proven above you do not need a ground for >a GFCI to work.
>> unless you want to user (person) to be the ground >> for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line >> through them? >> The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI circuit >> will become unbalanced and trip.
>Absolute bullshit. Electric frying pans, toasters, can openers >etc that have two prong plugs with no ground, are protected by >the (code reguired) GFCI receptacle(s) serving the counter top >in the kitchen.
>You can easily prove these things to yourself. Do not take >my word on it. Do some looking, and some thinking, and >you will learn something.
>A GFCI will trip on a difference of current between the hot >and the neutral. The typical GFCI will trip at about 5mA >difference. It does not matter what creates that difference: >if it exists, the GFCI will trip.
>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:59:19 -0500, Jamie >>> <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:
>>>> Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
>>> From BCHydro The first Para from the FACTS pdf
>>> "What is a ground fault?
>>> Normally, electricity flows in a circuit from the >>> “hot” wire through the electrical equipment in >>> your home, then back to the utility through a >>> “neutral” wire. A circuit can also be completed >>> when electrical current runs from the hot wire to >>> ground. Have you ever experienced an electric >>> shock? If you did, it probably happened because >>> your hand or some other part of your body >>> contacted a source of electrical current and your >>> body provided a path for the electrical current to >>> go to the ground, so that you received a shock. This >>> rare, unexpected condition is called a “Ground Fault."
>>> For a summary an earth ground isn't needed for GFCI to work as >>> intended. Protect people from shocks.
>>>> Take my word for it. >>>> You need a ground, unless you want to user (person) to be the ground >>>>for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line >>>>through them? >>>> The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI circuit >>>>will become unbalanced and trip.
>>> [snip] >>Sorry, not to start a flame war, I don't need reading on a subject that >> I worked in years ago before it became a mandate for CFGI's..
>--- >Obviously, you do, since there is no dedicated ground conductor required >for a GFCI to work properly.
>All that's required for the circuit to trip, and break the hot >connection, is that the current in the hot lead be different from the >current in the neutral lead. >---
>> I didn't work doing anything for residential but it was for industrial >>applications to detect ground faults in circuits for fast disconnects.
>--- >What exactly did you do? >---
>> The methods used today for residential or where ever these services >>apply, work the same way.
>--- >If they do, then the commercial applications you're referring to don't, >since residential devices don't need a dedicated ground conductor to >work properly. >---
>> This is old school for me..
>--- >But you obviously napped in class, so the conclusions you've come to are >fatally flawed. >---
>> But nice of you to post it, in any case. I'm sure others can get >>something out of it.
>--- >Too late for you though, huh?
>Fixed in your ways and unwilling to bend because of pride, you refuse to >allow the neuron pathways you treasure, and which have led you to >steadfastly cling to the path which will surely lead you into the abyss, >to be rerouted. >---
>> Btw, I see my working years winding down and have been consulting >> with a retired Electrical instructor which still gives adult courses >>and is currently an active state inspector, along with being on the >> NEC comity. He has been trying to convince me I should become a >>part time Code/State inspector after my retirement. Where by, I can >> retire early and do that part time.
>--- >I think, since you don't even know how a GFCI works, (well, maybe you do >now since everyone in the world has explained it to you) that's a very, >very bad idea. >---
>> I have gone out with him on a few inspections to get a feel for how >>its conducted in other places other than where I've worked over the >>years. After seeing some of the emotional out burst from some of the >>people when he rejects something, makes me wonder if I want to be in >>the line of fire.
>--- >I wouldn't worry about it since the level of competence you display in >your posts might easily let the house burn down with no witnesses left >to cast the blame on the inspector. >---
>> Currently, my line or work involves HV equipment that produce >> up to 5Mev for irradiation xlinking. etc.. Along with alot of other >> industrial processing equipment with micro-controller operations, >>building custom circuits for special operations etc..
>--- >"Building" seems to be the keyword here, although you sneakily allude to >greater responsibility in order to exalt your persona.
>What, exactly, do you do? >---
>> I don't see my self finding this kind of work at retirement out of my >>home! ;)
>--- >Wise choice, IMO. >---
>> It kind of makes me wonder what other people do at retirement, of >>this line of work?
>--- >The sentence doesn't parse well.
>What is it you're trying to say?
>JF
Isn't "Jamie" trying to say, "I am so ignorant I might as well be dead" ?:-)
...Jim Thompson -- | James E.Thompson, CTO | mens | | Analog Innovations, Inc. | et | | Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus | | Phoenix, Arizona 85048 Skype: Contacts Only | | | Voice:(480)460-2350 Fax: Available upon request | Brass Rat | | E-mail Icon at http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |
"We are a nation of laws" Which is double-speak for... "We are a nation of yellow-belly wusses"
>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 20:32:42 -0500, Jamie >><jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:
>>>Michael A. Terrell wrote:
>>>> Jamie wrote:
>>>>>ehsjr wrote:
>>>>>>Jamie wrote:
>>>>>><snip>
>>>>>>> The older homes used armor/Bx type wire most of the time, that >>>>>>>supplies the ground. Not a good one but one good enough for a GFCI >>>>>>>most of the >>>>>>>time. >>>>>>> And there are still homes with knob & tube still in service.. think >>>>>>>about those who have put in U-ground receptacles that have no ground.
>>>>>>> As stated before, GCFI do not work with out a ground.
>>>>>>Jamie, That is simply not true.
>>>>>>GFCIs *DO NOT* need a ground to work.
>>>>>>Ed
>>>>>Oh really..
>>>>> Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
>>>>> Take my word for it. >>>>> You need a ground, unless you want to user (person) to be the ground >>>>>for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line >>>>>through them? >>>>> The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI circuit >>>>>will become unbalanced and trip.
>>>>> I suppose the appliance it self can have a external ground that makes >>>>>its way back to the same ground the service is on, but would you want to >>>>> gamble on that?
>>>>> Now, if you are referring to arc breakers, which are not GFCI. Then I >>>>>might agree.
>>>>> Arc breakers will trip on an arch how ever, they are a problem in some >>>>> environments to use.
>>>>> P.S.
>>>>> There are some brand of GFCI receptacles that do trip on a balanced >>>>>over load. Normally, when it passes its rating for the receptacle.
>>>>> Take it as you wish.
>>>>> Practice what you want, right or wrong.
>>>> You're always wrong, second edition. I gave you the NEC code showing >>>> that it is permitted.
>>>You're the biggest joke here.
>>Then why is everyone here laughing at you?
>>> Really, no fooling, you are!
>>Really, no fooling, they are!
>We need to tie Jamie to a whipping post. Then "induce" him to >understand "common-mode" ;-)
> ...Jim Thompson
Who do you think you are kidding, i can't create or handle a 70 megatesla field. But i bet jamie thinks he can.
>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:59:19 -0500, Jamie >> <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:
>>> Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
>> From BCHydro The first Para from the FACTS pdf
>> "What is a ground fault?
>> Normally, electricity flows in a circuit from the >> “hot” wire through the electrical equipment in >> your home, then back to the utility through a >> “neutral” wire. A circuit can also be completed >> when electrical current runs from the hot wire to >> ground. Have you ever experienced an electric >> shock? If you did, it probably happened because >> your hand or some other part of your body >> contacted a source of electrical current and your >> body provided a path for the electrical current to >> go to the ground, so that you received a shock. This >> rare, unexpected condition is called a “Ground Fault."
>> For a summary an earth ground isn't needed for GFCI to work as >> intended. Protect people from shocks.
>>> Take my word for it. >>> You need a ground, unless you want to user (person) to be the ground >>>for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line >>>through them? >>> The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI circuit >>>will become unbalanced and trip.
>> [snip] >Sorry, not to start a flame war, I don't need reading on a subject that > I worked in years ago before it became a mandate for CFGI's..
> I didn't work doing anything for residential but it was for industrial >applications to detect ground faults in circuits for fast disconnects.
> The methods used today for residential or where ever these services >apply, work the same way.
> This is old school for me..
> But nice of you to post it, in any case. I'm sure others can get >something out of it.
> Btw, I see my working years winding down and have been consulting > with a retired Electrical instructor which still gives adult courses >and is currently an active state inspector, along with being on the > NEC comity. He has been trying to convince me I should become a >part time Code/State inspector after my retirement. Where by, I can > retire early and do that part time.
> I have gone out with him on a few inspections to get a feel for how >its conducted in other places other than where I've worked over the >years. After seeing some of the emotional out burst from some of the >people when he rejects something, makes me wonder if I want to be in >the line of fire.
> Currently, my line or work involves HV equipment that produce > up to 5Mev for irradiation xlinking. etc.. Along with alot of other > industrial processing equipment with micro-controller operations, >building custom circuits for special operations etc..
> I don't see my self finding this kind of work at retirement out of my >home! ;)
> It kind of makes me wonder what other people do at retirement, of >this line of work?
So, you are not an engineer, and arrogantly stupid, and listen to arrogant stupids as well. Reread the portions of the NEC that have been pointed out to you by others.
>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:59:19 -0500, Jamie >>> <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:
>>>> Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
>>> From BCHydro The first Para from the FACTS pdf
>>> "What is a ground fault?
>>> Normally, electricity flows in a circuit from the >>> “hot” wire through the electrical equipment in >>> your home, then back to the utility through a >>> “neutral” wire. A circuit can also be completed >>> when electrical current runs from the hot wire to >>> ground. Have you ever experienced an electric >>> shock? If you did, it probably happened because >>> your hand or some other part of your body >>> contacted a source of electrical current and your >>> body provided a path for the electrical current to >>> go to the ground, so that you received a shock. This >>> rare, unexpected condition is called a “Ground Fault."
>>> For a summary an earth ground isn't needed for GFCI to work as >>> intended. Protect people from shocks.
>>>> Take my word for it. >>>> You need a ground, unless you want to user (person) to be the ground >>>>for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line >>>>through them? >>>> The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI circuit >>>>will become unbalanced and trip.
>>> [snip] >>Sorry, not to start a flame war, I don't need reading on a subject that >> I worked in years ago before it became a mandate for CFGI's..
>--- >Obviously, you do, since there is no dedicated ground conductor required >for a GFCI to work properly.
>All that's required for the circuit to trip, and break the hot >connection, is that the current in the hot lead be different from the >current in the neutral lead. >---
>> I didn't work doing anything for residential but it was for industrial >>applications to detect ground faults in circuits for fast disconnects.
JosephKK wrote: > On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 16:25:56 -0600, John Fields > <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:23:30 -0500, Jamie >><jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:
>>>Hammy wrote:
>>>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:59:19 -0500, Jamie >>>><jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:
>>>>> Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
>>>>From BCHydro The first Para from the FACTS pdf
>>>>"What is a ground fault?
>>>>Normally, electricity flows in a circuit from the >>>>“hot” wire through the electrical equipment in >>>>your home, then back to the utility through a >>>>“neutral” wire. A circuit can also be completed >>>>when electrical current runs from the hot wire to >>>>ground. Have you ever experienced an electric >>>>shock? If you did, it probably happened because >>>>your hand or some other part of your body >>>>contacted a source of electrical current and your >>>>body provided a path for the electrical current to >>>>go to the ground, so that you received a shock. This >>>>rare, unexpected condition is called a “Ground Fault."
>>>>For a summary an earth ground isn't needed for GFCI to work as >>>>intended. Protect people from shocks.
>>>>>Take my word for it. >>>>> You need a ground, unless you want to user (person) to be the ground >>>>>for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line >>>>>through them? >>>>> The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI circuit >>>>>will become unbalanced and trip.
>>>>[snip]
>>>Sorry, not to start a flame war, I don't need reading on a subject that >>> I worked in years ago before it became a mandate for CFGI's..
>>--- >>Obviously, you do, since there is no dedicated ground conductor required >>for a GFCI to work properly.
>>All that's required for the circuit to trip, and break the hot >>connection, is that the current in the hot lead be different from the >>current in the neutral lead. >>---
>>> I didn't work doing anything for residential but it was for industrial >>>applications to detect ground faults in circuits for fast disconnects.
>>--- >>What exactly did you do? >>---
> Jamie is an electrician, and not a very good one.
>> On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 16:25:56 -0600, John Fields >> <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:23:30 -0500, Jamie >>><jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:
>>>>Hammy wrote:
>>>>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:59:19 -0500, Jamie >>>>><jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
>>>>>From BCHydro The first Para from the FACTS pdf
>>>>>"What is a ground fault?
>>>>>Normally, electricity flows in a circuit from the >>>>>“hot” wire through the electrical equipment in >>>>>your home, then back to the utility through a >>>>>“neutral” wire. A circuit can also be completed >>>>>when electrical current runs from the hot wire to >>>>>ground. Have you ever experienced an electric >>>>>shock? If you did, it probably happened because >>>>>your hand or some other part of your body >>>>>contacted a source of electrical current and your >>>>>body provided a path for the electrical current to >>>>>go to the ground, so that you received a shock. This >>>>>rare, unexpected condition is called a “Ground Fault."
>>>>>For a summary an earth ground isn't needed for GFCI to work as >>>>>intended. Protect people from shocks.
>>>>>>Take my word for it. >>>>>> You need a ground, unless you want to user (person) to be the ground >>>>>>for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line >>>>>>through them? >>>>>> The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI circuit >>>>>>will become unbalanced and trip.
>>>>>[snip]
>>>>Sorry, not to start a flame war, I don't need reading on a subject that >>>> I worked in years ago before it became a mandate for CFGI's..
>>>--- >>>Obviously, you do, since there is no dedicated ground conductor required >>>for a GFCI to work properly.
>>>All that's required for the circuit to trip, and break the hot >>>connection, is that the current in the hot lead be different from the >>>current in the neutral lead. >>>---
>>>> I didn't work doing anything for residential but it was for industrial >>>>applications to detect ground faults in circuits for fast disconnects.
>>>--- >>>What exactly did you do? >>>---
>> Jamie is an electrician, and not a very good one.
John Fields wrote: > On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 14:26:42 -0500, ehsjr <eh...@nospamverizon.net> > wrote:
>>Jamie wrote:
>>>ehsjr wrote:
>>>>Jamie wrote:
>>>><snip>
>>>>> The older homes used armor/Bx type wire most of the time, that >>>>>supplies the ground. Not a good one but one good enough for a GFCI >>>>>most of the >>>>>time. >>>>> And there are still homes with knob & tube still in service.. think >>>>>about those who have put in U-ground receptacles that have no ground.
>>>>> As stated before, GCFI do not work with out a ground.
>>>>Jamie, That is simply not true.
>>>>GFCIs *DO NOT* need a ground to work.
>>>>Ed
>>>Oh really..
>>Yes, really.
>>> Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
>>Because it is intended to protect personnel from a current >>through themselves to ground.
>>> Take my word for it.
>>Absolutely not. Your word is wrong. Here's a diagram of >>wiring that requires no ground and no fault to ground >>for the GFCI to trip:
>>You can wire it for yourself to test and prove to yourself that >>no ground is required for a GFCI to work.
>>By the way, the diagram above is representative of how the >>test circuit inside the GFCI is set up. In other words, >>every GFCI with a test switch includes a circuit that makes >>the GFCI trip with NO ground connection.
>>> You need a ground,
>>As conclusively proven above you do not need a ground for >>a GFCI to work.
>>>unless you want to user (person) to be the ground >>>for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line >>>through them? >>> The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI circuit >>>will become unbalanced and trip.
>>Absolute bullshit. Electric frying pans, toasters, can openers >>etc that have two prong plugs with no ground, are protected by >>the (code reguired) GFCI receptacle(s) serving the counter top >>in the kitchen.
>>You can easily prove these things to yourself. Do not take >>my word on it. Do some looking, and some thinking, and >>you will learn something.
>>A GFCI will trip on a difference of current between the hot >>and the neutral. The typical GFCI will trip at about 5mA >>difference. It does not matter what creates that difference: >>if it exists, the GFCI will trip.
>> On Tue, 03 Nov 2009 16:25:56 -0600, John Fields >> <jfie...@austininstruments.com> wrote:
>>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 21:23:30 -0500, Jamie >>><jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:
>>>>Hammy wrote:
>>>>>On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:59:19 -0500, Jamie >>>>><jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:
>>>>>> Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
>>>>>From BCHydro The first Para from the FACTS pdf
>>>>>"What is a ground fault?
>>>>>Normally, electricity flows in a circuit from the >>>>>“hot” wire through the electrical equipment in >>>>>your home, then back to the utility through a >>>>>“neutral” wire. A circuit can also be completed >>>>>when electrical current runs from the hot wire to >>>>>ground. Have you ever experienced an electric >>>>>shock? If you did, it probably happened because >>>>>your hand or some other part of your body >>>>>contacted a source of electrical current and your >>>>>body provided a path for the electrical current to >>>>>go to the ground, so that you received a shock. This >>>>>rare, unexpected condition is called a “Ground Fault."
>>>>>For a summary an earth ground isn't needed for GFCI to work as >>>>>intended. Protect people from shocks.
>>>>>>Take my word for it. >>>>>> You need a ground, unless you want to user (person) to be the ground >>>>>>for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line >>>>>>through them? >>>>>> The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI circuit >>>>>>will become unbalanced and trip.
>>>>>[snip]
>>>>Sorry, not to start a flame war, I don't need reading on a subject that >>>> I worked in years ago before it became a mandate for CFGI's..
>>>--- >>>Obviously, you do, since there is no dedicated ground conductor required >>>for a GFCI to work properly.
>>>All that's required for the circuit to trip, and break the hot >>>connection, is that the current in the hot lead be different from the >>>current in the neutral lead. >>>---
>>>> I didn't work doing anything for residential but it was for industrial >>>>applications to detect ground faults in circuits for fast disconnects.
>>>--- >>>What exactly did you do? >>>---
>> Jamie is an electrician, and not a very good one.
>> <snip> >Excuse Me?
I have worked with engineers, technicians, electricians and many other trades people of all grades for some decades. I calls 'em as i sees 'em.
>>> The older homes used armor/Bx type wire most of the time, that >>> supplies the ground. Not a good one but one good enough for a GFCI >>> most of the >>> time. >>> And there are still homes with knob & tube still in service.. think >>> about those who have put in U-ground receptacles that have no ground.
>>> As stated before, GCFI do not work with out a ground.
>> Jamie, That is simply not true.
>> GFCIs *DO NOT* need a ground to work.
>> Ed >Oh really..
> Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
Because it interrupts the circuit when there is a ground fault, namely a path to ground that shouldn't be there and might be somebody's body.
> Take my word for it. > You need a ground, unless you want to user (person) to be the ground >for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line >through them? > The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI circuit >will become unbalanced and trip.
No. The hot and neutral both run through a torroidal current transformer. If the outgoing and return currents don't cancel to within some small number of mA, there must be current leaking from one or the other conductor to ground, a voltage is induced into the CT sense circuit, and it trips.
A GFCI will work fine when a 2-wire appliance, like a lamp, is plugged into it. You can also install a GFCI-type outlet in an old box that has no ground available.
John Larkin wrote: > On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:59:19 -0500, Jamie > <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:
>>ehsjr wrote:
>>>Jamie wrote:
>>><snip>
>>>> The older homes used armor/Bx type wire most of the time, that >>>>supplies the ground. Not a good one but one good enough for a GFCI >>>>most of the >>>>time. >>>> And there are still homes with knob & tube still in service.. think >>>>about those who have put in U-ground receptacles that have no ground.
>>>> As stated before, GCFI do not work with out a ground.
>>>Jamie, That is simply not true.
>>>GFCIs *DO NOT* need a ground to work.
>>>Ed
>>Oh really..
>> Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
> Because it interrupts the circuit when there is a ground fault, namely > a path to ground that shouldn't be there and might be somebody's body.
>> Take my word for it. >> You need a ground, unless you want to user (person) to be the ground >>for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line >>through them? >> The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI circuit >>will become unbalanced and trip.
> No. The hot and neutral both run through a torroidal current > transformer. If the outgoing and return currents don't cancel to > within some small number of mA, there must be current leaking from one > or the other conductor to ground, a voltage is induced into the CT > sense circuit, and it trips.
> A GFCI will work fine when a 2-wire appliance, like a lamp, is plugged > into it. You can also install a GFCI-type outlet in an old box that > has no ground available.
>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:59:19 -0500, Jamie >> <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:
>>>ehsjr wrote:
>>>>Jamie wrote:
>>>><snip>
>>>>> The older homes used armor/Bx type wire most of the time, that >>>>>supplies the ground. Not a good one but one good enough for a GFCI >>>>>most of the >>>>>time. >>>>> And there are still homes with knob & tube still in service.. think >>>>>about those who have put in U-ground receptacles that have no ground.
>>>>> As stated before, GCFI do not work with out a ground.
>>>>Jamie, That is simply not true.
>>>>GFCIs *DO NOT* need a ground to work.
>>>>Ed
>>>Oh really..
>>> Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
>> Because it interrupts the circuit when there is a ground fault, namely >> a path to ground that shouldn't be there and might be somebody's body.
>>> Take my word for it. >>> You need a ground, unless you want to user (person) to be the ground >>>for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line >>>through them? >>> The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI circuit >>>will become unbalanced and trip.
>> No. The hot and neutral both run through a torroidal current >> transformer. If the outgoing and return currents don't cancel to >> within some small number of mA, there must be current leaking from one >> or the other conductor to ground, a voltage is induced into the CT >> sense circuit, and it trips.
>> A GFCI will work fine when a 2-wire appliance, like a lamp, is plugged >> into it. You can also install a GFCI-type outlet in an old box that >> has no ground available.
> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:59:19 -0500, Jamie > <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:
> >ehsjr wrote: > >> Jamie wrote:
> >> <snip>
> >>> The older homes used armor/Bx type wire most of the time, that > >>> supplies the ground. Not a good one but one good enough for a GFCI > >>> most of the > >>> time. > >>> And there are still homes with knob & tube still in service.. think > >>> about those who have put in U-ground receptacles that have no ground.
> >>> As stated before, GCFI do not work with out a ground.
> >> Jamie, That is simply not true.
> >> GFCIs *DO NOT* need a ground to work.
> >> Ed > >Oh really..
> > Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
> Because it interrupts the circuit when there is a ground fault, namely > a path to ground that shouldn't be there and might be somebody's body.
> > Take my word for it. > > You need a ground, unless you want to user (person) to be the ground > >for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line > >through them? > > The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI circuit > >will become unbalanced and trip.
> No. The hot and neutral both run through a torroidal current > transformer. If the outgoing and return currents don't cancel to > within some small number of mA, there must be current leaking from one > or the other conductor to ground, a voltage is induced into the CT > sense circuit, and it trips.
> A GFCI will work fine when a 2-wire appliance, like a lamp, is plugged > into it. You can also install a GFCI-type outlet in an old box that > has no ground available.
John, you are arguing with an ignorant troll. In another thread he bragged about reusing so NEMA rated outlets at higher voltages where he supposedly works, then laughed and claimed they wouldn't pay for damages when some contractor's equipment would get damaged. He won't even post under his real name of Maynard A. Philbrook. He lives in Willimantic, CT. This information is available on line, in the public record. I wonder if he really has a job, and if so, what his employer would have to say about the way he acts on line? he has bragged about all the non compliant wiring and that they are grandfathered by the EPA to use banned chemicals. The place sounds like something the fire department, EPA, and IRS should investigate, along with the GAO, since he claims they do work for the federal government.
I posted the relevant reference in the NEC, and information from Leviton about their GFCI products. He ignored it, just like I expected.
>>> On Mon, 02 Nov 2009 19:59:19 -0500, Jamie >>> <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1l...@charter.net> wrote:
>>>>ehsjr wrote:
>>>>>Jamie wrote:
>>>>><snip>
>>>>>> The older homes used armor/Bx type wire most of the time, that >>>>>>supplies the ground. Not a good one but one good enough for a GFCI >>>>>>most of the >>>>>>time. >>>>>> And there are still homes with knob & tube still in service.. think >>>>>>about those who have put in U-ground receptacles that have no ground.
>>>>>> As stated before, GCFI do not work with out a ground.
>>>>>Jamie, That is simply not true.
>>>>>GFCIs *DO NOT* need a ground to work.
>>>>>Ed
>>>>Oh really..
>>>> Why do you think! it is called Ground Fault Circuit interrupter.
>>> Because it interrupts the circuit when there is a ground fault, namely >>> a path to ground that shouldn't be there and might be somebody's body.
>>>> Take my word for it. >>>> You need a ground, unless you want to user (person) to be the ground >>>>for the appliance when it decides to connect the unbalanced line >>>>through them? >>>> The appliance requires a ground so that the lines in the GFCI circuit >>>>will become unbalanced and trip.
>>> No. The hot and neutral both run through a torroidal current >>> transformer. If the outgoing and return currents don't cancel to >>> within some small number of mA, there must be current leaking from one >>> or the other conductor to ground, a voltage is induced into the CT >>> sense circuit, and it trips.
>>> A GFCI will work fine when a 2-wire appliance, like a lamp, is plugged >>> into it. You can also install a GFCI-type outlet in an old box that >>> has no ground available.
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