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Lew  
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 More options Nov 3, 5:57 am
Newsgroups: rec.photo.darkroom
From: Lew <lew1...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:57:45 -0800 (PST)
Local: Tues, Nov 3 2009 5:57 am
Subject: More toning questions
Ok, thanks for responses to my previous, typographically impared
thread. The Rudman books are in transit and I've decided to work
initially with Ilford Multigrade Warmtone FB. While I'm waiting for
the books to arrive, the following questions occur to me:

1. Suggestions for the developer that will produce the warmest tone I
can obtain with the Ilford paper. I have a fully stocked supply of raw
chemicals, so any published formula is ok.

2. Will the choice of developer affect the tones I get subsequently
through toning?

3. Has anyone had success dying the paper base in combination with
toning? ... or is this a totally ridiculous idea?


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Richard Knoppow  
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 More options Nov 3, 10:13 am
Newsgroups: rec.photo.darkroom
From: "Richard Knoppow" <dickb...@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 15:13:05 -0800
Local: Tues, Nov 3 2009 10:13 am
Subject: Re: More toning questions

"Lew" <lew1...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:4c2d32c5-90be-4450-9b40-e6c2eb9aa2ce@37g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...

     Developer will have some effect on original image color
and toning. In general warm tone paper has somewhat finer
silver grains than neutral or cold tone paper. It is the
size of the grains that largely determines the color of
silver images. Fine silver grains generally tone more
rapidly than coarse grains partly because of the ratio of
volume to surface area, but note that this is not a strict
rule. Any developer that tends toward a warmer image color
will generally promote toning. The warmer the original image
color the warmer (yellower) the toned image will be, at
least in sulfiding toners.
     Again as a rule of thumb only the less active the
developer the warmer the image color. Some special developer
exist that will produce very warm silver images but usually
at the expense of speed and sometimes maximum black. Also,
in general, modern paper emulsions don't respond nearly as
much to variations in developers or to manipulation of
development time and exposure as the classic papers did.
About the only way to determine the final results of a
combination of paper, developer, and toner, is to make test
prints.
     Indirect sulfide toner, that is, the bleach and
redevelop kind, work well on cold or neutral paper. They
tend to produce too yellow an image on warm tone paper.
Direct toner, that is, single bath toners, are the opposite,
they tend to produce too cold an image color, or no change,
on cold or neutral tone paper but work well on warm tone
paper. At present Kodak makes three toners as described in
my original post. I have no idea of how long these will stay
in production but all work as advertised and are reliable.
Since none of the formulas is a secret others make very
similiar toners. Photographer's Formulars for instance has
several. Most sulfiding type toners are pretty easy to make
from scratch but Selenium toner is not plus selenium is
fairly toxic.
     You will find other types of toners. Not all have image
protection properties. The standard for decades for
protection of microfilm images is a gold toner. This is very
effective but expensive. On warm tone paper gold toner tends
to produce a slate blue color. If it is applied to an image
previously toned with a sulfide toner it turns brick red. By
partially toning in sulfide and then retoning in gold the
shadows will be blue and highlights red or yellow-red.
    Metal substitute toners, like Iron-Blue toner (Kodak
T-11) or copper toner, produce images which are less stable
than the original silver although the image colors can be
interesting.
    Papers used to come in a wide variety of stock tints,
from pure white or even slightly blue-white to old ivory.
For the most part these disappeared when color became
cheaper. The stock tint has a strong effect on appearent
image color. The same emulsion on a warm stock will appear
much warmer whether toned or not than the on a white stock.
It _is_ possible to tint paper stocks but not RC stocks. The
problem is that the tint in the original tinted stock was
also in the substrate of the paper. I don't know what sort
of dyes to use but I am sure there are articles describing
the process. There was a vogue for a time of "toning" in tea
but the tea really only stains the paper and emulsion. I
think this stain is pretty permanent. Its worth trying on a
scrap print. I am not sure if Tim Rudman discusses this in
his book.

--
Richard Knoppow
Los Angeles, CA, USA
dickb...@ix.netcom.com


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lloy...@the-wiredot.com  
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 More options Nov 5, 1:52 am
Newsgroups: rec.photo.darkroom
From: Lloy...@the-wiredot.com
Date: Wed, 04 Nov 2009 09:52:10 -0500
Local: Thurs, Nov 5 2009 1:52 am
Subject: Re: More toning questions
November 4, 2009, from Lloyd Erlick,

On Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:57:45 -0800 (PST), Lew

<lew1...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Ok, thanks for responses to my previous, typographically impared
>thread. The Rudman books are in transit and I've decided to work
>initially with Ilford Multigrade Warmtone FB. While I'm waiting for
>the books to arrive, the following questions occur to me:

Ilford Warmtone (they designate the FB paper
MGW) is a good choice. I've used MGW for
years now, and I like it very much. In fact,
in certain ways I prefer it even over two
discontinued papers that were well loved:
Kodak Ektalure and Agfa Portriga. My reason
is that MGW has relatively white base color.
Both of those older papers had a slightly
tinted base meant to look creamy, I think. I
like the way MGW can be made to look quite
warm in the dense areas, but highlights
retain a very nicely bright whiteness. MGW
does not have the bright-white base color of
lots of RC materials; it's a nice white.
Scientific enough?

But to make MGW look nice and warm, it has to
be coddled along. I find selenium toning is
essential (for my purposes...), and whatever
we can do to enhance the effectiveness of
selenium toner we should do. For starters, no
hardener is necessary anywhere in the
process. This means a plain fixer will
suffice (I use a simple sodium thiosulfate
and sodium sulfite fixer, after a formula by
Ansel Adams in his book, "The Print".)

The choice of developer is crucial to the
final tone of MGW after toning in selenium
(or other 'warm' toners, such as brown
toner).

Many years ago I was told that papers respond
more 'warmly' if the developer contains
potassium ions. In other words, a developer
could be made to produce warmer results if
the sodium salts were exchanged for their
potassium counterparts. Hence, potassium
sulfite and potassium carbonate would be
handy. I was lucky in my hunt and found some
anhydrous potassium sulfite being sold as
surplus in nice clean powder form in boxes
marked Kodak Canada.

I've experimented with various paper
developers and I like the old Ansco 120
formula best. (Very different from the old
Agfa 120 paper developer, so avoid
confusion.)

Here is the formula I've come up with for my
day to day print developing. I mix it
directly to a working solution (I hate
storing piles of bottles with concentrates. I
have the raw powder chemicals and a balance
to weigh them out, so what else do we need?)

After a session's use, this developer
(remember, it's a working solution) can be
stored and re-used, but I have never liked
the results I saw from doing this. Just a
slightly-off tonality, I always thought. But
it's a matter of opinion.

Note that Potassium Bromide is listed at 3
grams per liter working solution, but could
be varied up or down depending on one's
desire. I'd say the extremes would be one
gram to about twelve per liter. Personal
choice and experimentation ...

===================================
120 (Potassium) Print Developer - formula for
one liter *working* solution:

distilled water,
 at working temperature
   20-23 degrees C. ............. 800 ml

Metol ........................... 3.5 gram

Potassium Sulfite anhydrous ..... 13.5 gram
*(see note below)

Potassium Carbonate anhydrous ... 11 gram

Potassium Bromide ............... 3 gram OR
30 ml of ten per cent solution

distilled water,
 at working temperature,
  to make ....................... 1000 ml

-----------------------------------------
*NOTE: Potassium Sulfite is produced in
solution by combining Potassium Metabisulfite
2 parts (very slightly less), and Potassium
Hydroxide one part, to yield three parts
Potassium Sulfite. This is approximate but
close to exact (error around five per cent).
======================================

I rinse my prints very thoroughly after the
developer in place of an acid stop bath. Stop
only provides an acidic environment in which
developer cannot function, but the developer
is still present. It's easier to avoid
staining later in the process if the
developer is removed by water rinses.

I also use a non-acid fix because I selenium
tone all my prints, and any acid in contact
with selenium toner is likely to cause stains
on the print. (Acid in a fixer is there
because hardener requires an acidic
environment. A modern paper like MGW is quite
hard enough out of the box; no hardener is
necessary from us. We are exercising some
slight degree of care in handling our prints,
I presume? Hardener is for automated
processors and minimum wage employees.)

The warmth in the warm tone will not really
be apparent after development. It appears
during the toning step. Since the fix I use
has no acid, I can slip my prints directly
from the fixer into the selenium toner -
which is largely composed of thiosulfate, so
a bit of fixer clinging to the print is
insignificant (as long as there is no
developer mixed in there, eh??)

I like to use my selenium toner fairly
concentrated: diluted 1+5 with distilled
water. (Speaking of the Kodak product, KRST,
"Kodak Rapid Selenium Toner".) I tone for ten
minutes, and sometimes I even warm up the
toner to around body temperature.

Brown toner might be useful for the project
you mention. Brown toner can be used in
conjunction with selenium to yield different
"levels" of warmth, depending on which toner
is applied first. It's best to rinse the
print between toners.

Brown toner is prone to giving off hydrogen
sulfide. I've only used the version that is
made up from potassium polysulfide and
carbonate (very cheap and easy to make). It
does not require darkness, so don't do it in
the darkroom; maybe don't even do it indoors.
I doubt the level of hydrogen sulfide from a
home made toner could get high enough to harm
a human, but believe me it can get high
enough to sting your eyes and nose and gross
you out. But it's only slightly worse than
eating a mess o' beans and standing in the
closet (or darkroom...) long enough for
digestion to occur.

Selenium toner gives off smell too: ammonia.
It's funny how all these things we love to do
involve the gasses and smells that often come
from human life processes. Toner will give
off enough ammonia to sting the eyes, but
we've been around ammonia since before we
were human. It's a product of the
decomposition of urine; human olfactory
equipment can detect ammonia in the tiniest
amounts, long before concentration gets high
enough to hurt us. I suppose hunters sniffed
out prey by following this molecule. Very
much the same is true of hydrogen sulfide. It
is do distinctive to us, and detected at such
low concentration by our noses, that it is
hard to imagine being harmed by hydrogen
sulfide unless we are miners. Still, the
gross odors need not be inhaled. Toning can
be done in daylight, so ventilation is
relatively easy. At the very least, the toner
tray can be covered.

With MGW, I have found that gold toner
applied after my usual selenium toner
produces a perfect neutral black tone.
Although I make portraits, and much prefer
the tone from selenium (kind of golden brown,
suggestive of a healthy tan on skin tones),
plain black is quite nice, too.

The gold toner method I use is the one from
Ed Buffaloe's website Unblinking Eye. A stock
of one per cent gold chloride is kept
dissolved in distilled water, stored in
darkness. A few milliliters of this solution
are added to a thiocyanate solution
(potassium, sodium or ammonium all seem to
work). This is then applied to the print. It
seems to me that the image tone is changed
almost immediately to black, and longer
immersion times do not change the result. I
usually let it sit in the gold toner for
three minutes, but that is just my arbitrary
decision.

I haven't experimented with gold toner after
brown toner (a sulfide toner). Same with
dying the paper base (I like relatively white
base color to bring up the warm tones.) I'm
fairly sure others on this forum have
remarked on using tea and such things to dye
the paper base of FB materials.

My website has more such pontifications from
me, under the 'technical' button on the table
of contents page.

regards,
--le
________________________________
Lloyd Erlick Portraits, Toronto.
website: www.heylloyd.com
telephone: 416-686-0326
email: portr...@heylloyd.com
________________________________
--


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