Op-Ed Columnist Behind the Facade By BOB HERBERT Meeting Michael Jackson in the mid-1980s was one of the creepier experiences of my life. I was an editor at The Daily News and had to present him with an award in a large room with just a handful of onlookers and a photographer at Madison Square Garden.
I wasn’t put off by the fact that Jackson, then in his mid-20s, couldn’t make small talk. Lots of people have trouble with that. There was something about his overall behavior that weirded me out. He seemed, even then, to be a person who was trying with all of his being to step outside of reality and leave it behind.
Emmanuel Lewis, the child star of the hit TV series “Webster,” was with Jackson that evening. The undersized Lewis was probably 13 at the time, but he looked much younger, maybe 7 or 8.
Jackson seemed to relate only to Lewis. He made faces at the tiny boy and giggled as Lewis hopped around and climbed over furniture, much to Jackson’s delight. I remember thinking as I left the Garden that Jackson had treated Lewis almost as a pet.
I’ve never heard any suggestion of anything improper about the relationship between Jackson and Lewis. But what I wish I had thought more about in those long-ago days of Michael-mania was the era of extreme immaturity and grotesque irresponsibility that was already well under way in America. The craziness played out on a shockingly broad front and Jackson’s life, among many others, would prove to be a shining and ultimately tragic example. . . . . . . . . . .
Motown was the label that gave us the Jackson 5. But when Michael and his brothers released their first album in 1969, the label had already reached its creative peak and most of the best work — the stunning originality of the Miracles, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells, Martha and the Vandellas, the Supremes, the Temptations, and others — had been done. Hip-hop would soon appear, and then the violence and misogyny of gangsta rap.
All kinds of restraints were coming off. It was almost as if the adults had gone into hiding. The deregulation that we were told would be great for the economy was being applied to the culture as a whole. Women could be treated as sex objects again as misogyny, hardly limited to hip-hop, went mainstream. (Have you looked at network television lately, or listened to the radio?) Astonishing numbers of men abandoned their children with impunity. Most of the nation seemed fine with the idea of going to war without a draft and without raising taxes.
In many ways we descended as a society into a fantasyland, trying to leave the limits and consequences and obligations of the real world behind. Politicians stopped talking about the poor. We built up staggering amounts of debt and called it an economic boom. We shipped jobs overseas by the millions without ever thinking seriously about how to replace them. We let New Orleans drown.
Jackson was the perfect star for the era, the embodiment of fantasy gone wild. He tried to carve himself up into another person, but, of course, there was the same Michael Jackson underneath — talented but psychologically disabled to the point where he was a danger to himself and others.
Reality is unforgiving. There is no escape. Behind the Jackson facade was the horror of child abuse. Court records and reams of well- documented media accounts contain a stream of serious allegations of child sex abuse and other inappropriate behavior with very young boys. Jackson, a multimillionaire megastar, was excused as an eccentric. Small children were delivered into his company, to spend the night in his bed, often by their parents.
One case of alleged pedophilia against Jackson, the details of which would make your hair stand on end, was settled for a reported $25 million. He beat another case in court.
The Michael-mania that has erupted since Jackson’s death — not just an appreciation of his music, but a giddy celebration of his life — is yet another spasm of the culture opting for fantasy over reality. We don’t want to look under the rock that was Jackson’s real life.
As with so many other things, we don’t want to know.
> Op-Ed Columnist > Behind the Facade > By BOB HERBERT > Meeting Michael Jackson in the mid-1980s was one of the creepier > experiences of my life. I was an editor at The Daily News and had to > present him with an award in a large room with just a handful of > onlookers and a photographer at Madison Square Garden.
> I wasn’t put off by the fact that Jackson, then in his mid-20s, > couldn’t make small talk. Lots of people have trouble with that. There > was something about his overall behavior that weirded me out. He > seemed, even then, to be a person who was trying with all of his being > to step outside of reality and leave it behind.
> Emmanuel Lewis, the child star of the hit TV series “Webster,” was > with Jackson that evening. The undersized Lewis was probably 13 at the > time, but he looked much younger, maybe 7 or 8.
> Jackson seemed to relate only to Lewis. He made faces at the tiny boy > and giggled as Lewis hopped around and climbed over furniture, much to > Jackson’s delight. I remember thinking as I left the Garden that > Jackson had treated Lewis almost as a pet.
> I’ve never heard any suggestion of anything improper about the > relationship between Jackson and Lewis. But what I wish I had thought > more about in those long-ago days of Michael-mania was the era of > extreme immaturity and grotesque irresponsibility that was already > well under way in America. The craziness played out on a shockingly > broad front and Jackson’s life, among many others, would prove to be a > shining and ultimately tragic example. . . . . . . . . . .
> Motown was the label that gave us the Jackson 5. But when Michael and > his brothers released their first album in 1969, the label had already > reached its creative peak and most of the best work — the stunning > originality of the Miracles, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells, Martha and > the Vandellas, the Supremes, the Temptations, and others — had been > done. Hip-hop would soon appear, and then the violence and misogyny of > gangsta rap.
> All kinds of restraints were coming off. It was almost as if the > adults had gone into hiding. The deregulation that we were told would > be great for the economy was being applied to the culture as a whole. > Women could be treated as sex objects again as misogyny, hardly > limited to hip-hop, went mainstream. (Have you looked at network > television lately, or listened to the radio?) Astonishing numbers of > men abandoned their children with impunity. Most of the nation seemed > fine with the idea of going to war without a draft and without raising > taxes.
> In many ways we descended as a society into a fantasyland, trying to > leave the limits and consequences and obligations of the real world > behind. Politicians stopped talking about the poor. We built up > staggering amounts of debt and called it an economic boom. We shipped > jobs overseas by the millions without ever thinking seriously about > how to replace them. We let New Orleans drown.
> Jackson was the perfect star for the era, the embodiment of fantasy > gone wild. He tried to carve himself up into another person, but, of > course, there was the same Michael Jackson underneath — talented but > psychologically disabled to the point where he was a danger to himself > and others.
> Reality is unforgiving. There is no escape. Behind the Jackson facade > was the horror of child abuse. Court records and reams of well- > documented media accounts contain a stream of serious allegations of > child sex abuse and other inappropriate behavior with very young boys. > Jackson, a multimillionaire megastar, was excused as an eccentric. > Small children were delivered into his company, to spend the night in > his bed, often by their parents.
> One case of alleged pedophilia against Jackson, the details of which > would make your hair stand on end, was settled for a reported $25 > million. He beat another case in court.
> The Michael-mania that has erupted since Jackson’s death — not just an > appreciation of his music, but a giddy celebration of his life — is > yet another spasm of the culture opting for fantasy over reality. We > don’t want to look under the rock that was Jackson’s real life.
> As with so many other things, we don’t want to know.
That's the best article on Jackson I've read since his death. I'm incredibly bored with puff pieces, claims about Jacko's supposed "musical genius," and with credulous idiots who buy his "Peter Pan" facade at face value. Thanks, Fatt!
> On Jul 4, 10:40 am, Fattuchus <fattuc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > Interesting OP ED in the NY Times:
> > Op-Ed Columnist > > Behind the Facade > > By BOB HERBERT > > Meeting Michael Jackson in the mid-1980s was one of the creepier > > experiences of my life. I was an editor at The Daily News and had to > > present him with an award in a large room with just a handful of > > onlookers and a photographer at Madison Square Garden.
> > I wasn’t put off by the fact that Jackson, then in his mid-20s, > > couldn’t make small talk. Lots of people have trouble with that. There > > was something about his overall behavior that weirded me out. He > > seemed, even then, to be a person who was trying with all of his being > > to step outside of reality and leave it behind.
> > Emmanuel Lewis, the child star of the hit TV series “Webster,” was > > with Jackson that evening. The undersized Lewis was probably 13 at the > > time, but he looked much younger, maybe 7 or 8.
> > Jackson seemed to relate only to Lewis. He made faces at the tiny boy > > and giggled as Lewis hopped around and climbed over furniture, much to > > Jackson’s delight. I remember thinking as I left the Garden that > > Jackson had treated Lewis almost as a pet.
> > I’ve never heard any suggestion of anything improper about the > > relationship between Jackson and Lewis. But what I wish I had thought > > more about in those long-ago days of Michael-mania was the era of > > extreme immaturity and grotesque irresponsibility that was already > > well under way in America. The craziness played out on a shockingly > > broad front and Jackson’s life, among many others, would prove to be a > > shining and ultimately tragic example. . . . . . . . . . .
> > Motown was the label that gave us the Jackson 5. But when Michael and > > his brothers released their first album in 1969, the label had already > > reached its creative peak and most of the best work — the stunning > > originality of the Miracles, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells, Martha and > > the Vandellas, the Supremes, the Temptations, and others — had been > > done. Hip-hop would soon appear, and then the violence and misogyny of > > gangsta rap.
> > All kinds of restraints were coming off. It was almost as if the > > adults had gone into hiding. The deregulation that we were told would > > be great for the economy was being applied to the culture as a whole. > > Women could be treated as sex objects again as misogyny, hardly > > limited to hip-hop, went mainstream. (Have you looked at network > > television lately, or listened to the radio?) Astonishing numbers of > > men abandoned their children with impunity. Most of the nation seemed > > fine with the idea of going to war without a draft and without raising > > taxes.
> > In many ways we descended as a society into a fantasyland, trying to > > leave the limits and consequences and obligations of the real world > > behind. Politicians stopped talking about the poor. We built up > > staggering amounts of debt and called it an economic boom. We shipped > > jobs overseas by the millions without ever thinking seriously about > > how to replace them. We let New Orleans drown.
> > Jackson was the perfect star for the era, the embodiment of fantasy > > gone wild. He tried to carve himself up into another person, but, of > > course, there was the same Michael Jackson underneath — talented but > > psychologically disabled to the point where he was a danger to himself > > and others.
> > Reality is unforgiving. There is no escape. Behind the Jackson facade > > was the horror of child abuse. Court records and reams of well- > > documented media accounts contain a stream of serious allegations of > > child sex abuse and other inappropriate behavior with very young boys. > > Jackson, a multimillionaire megastar, was excused as an eccentric. > > Small children were delivered into his company, to spend the night in > > his bed, often by their parents.
> > One case of alleged pedophilia against Jackson, the details of which > > would make your hair stand on end, was settled for a reported $25 > > million. He beat another case in court.
> > The Michael-mania that has erupted since Jackson’s death — not just an > > appreciation of his music, but a giddy celebration of his life — is > > yet another spasm of the culture opting for fantasy over reality. We > > don’t want to look under the rock that was Jackson’s real life.
> > As with so many other things, we don’t want to know.
> That's the best article on Jackson I've read since his death. I'm > incredibly bored with puff pieces, claims about Jacko's supposed > "musical genius," and with credulous idiots who buy his "Peter Pan" > facade at face value. Thanks, Fatt!- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
As a Jackson fan, I am saddened by his death, and frankly, I do enjoy the puff pieces. They are comforting at this difficult time. However, I must admit that the aboved op/ed piece struck me as objective, realistic and honest.
MJ was very talented and a wonderful entertainer, but beneath that surgically altered appearance, there was a very dark side. I think he was a tormented, suffering soul.
Herbert's comments about Emmanuel Lewis are both shocking and honest . . . . Jackson seemed to be very entertained by Lewis, treating him "almost as a pet."
I don't claim that Jackson engaged in any sexual impropriety, but there is something very wrong when a grown man does not relate much to other adults and has such a fascination with children.
On Jul 4, 9:40 am, Fattuchus <fattuc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> I’ve never heard any suggestion of anything improper about the > relationship between Jackson and Lewis. But what I wish I had thought > more about in those long-ago days of Michael-mania was the era of > extreme immaturity and grotesque irresponsibility that was already > well under way in America. The craziness played out on a shockingly > broad front and Jackson’s life, among many others, would prove to be a > shining and ultimately tragic example. . . . . . . . . . .
Something tells me Mr. Herbert would not have like Buster Keaton, Charlie Chaplin, Harpo Marx, Groucho, Edgar Bergen and his sidekick, Charlie McCarthy, or Jerry Lewis (what with the obsession with Jerry's kids) either.
After reading this piece... Hell, I don't like Mr. Herbert!
> Op-Ed Columnist > Behind the Facade > By BOB HERBERT > Meeting Michael Jackson in the mid-1980s was one of the creepier > experiences of my life. I was an editor at The Daily News and had to > present him with an award in a large room with just a handful of > onlookers and a photographer at Madison Square Garden.
> I wasn’t put off by the fact that Jackson, then in his mid-20s, > couldn’t make small talk. Lots of people have trouble with that. There > was something about his overall behavior that weirded me out. He > seemed, even then, to be a person who was trying with all of his being > to step outside of reality and leave it behind.
> Emmanuel Lewis, the child star of the hit TV series “Webster,” was > with Jackson that evening. The undersized Lewis was probably 13 at the > time, but he looked much younger, maybe 7 or 8.
> Jackson seemed to relate only to Lewis. He made faces at the tiny boy > and giggled as Lewis hopped around and climbed over furniture, much to > Jackson’s delight. I remember thinking as I left the Garden that > Jackson had treated Lewis almost as a pet.
> I’ve never heard any suggestion of anything improper about the > relationship between Jackson and Lewis. But what I wish I had thought > more about in those long-ago days of Michael-mania was the era of > extreme immaturity and grotesque irresponsibility that was already > well under way in America. The craziness played out on a shockingly > broad front and Jackson’s life, among many others, would prove to be a > shining and ultimately tragic example. . . . . . . . . . .
> Motown was the label that gave us the Jackson 5. But when Michael and > his brothers released their first album in 1969, the label had already > reached its creative peak and most of the best work — the stunning > originality of the Miracles, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells, Martha and > the Vandellas, the Supremes, the Temptations, and others — had been > done. Hip-hop would soon appear, and then the violence and misogyny of > gangsta rap.
> All kinds of restraints were coming off. It was almost as if the > adults had gone into hiding. The deregulation that we were told would > be great for the economy was being applied to the culture as a whole. > Women could be treated as sex objects again as misogyny, hardly > limited to hip-hop, went mainstream. (Have you looked at network > television lately, or listened to the radio?) Astonishing numbers of > men abandoned their children with impunity. Most of the nation seemed > fine with the idea of going to war without a draft and without raising > taxes.
> In many ways we descended as a society into a fantasyland, trying to > leave the limits and consequences and obligations of the real world > behind. Politicians stopped talking about the poor. We built up > staggering amounts of debt and called it an economic boom. We shipped > jobs overseas by the millions without ever thinking seriously about > how to replace them. We let New Orleans drown.
> Jackson was the perfect star for the era, the embodiment of fantasy > gone wild. He tried to carve himself up into another person, but, of > course, there was the same Michael Jackson underneath — talented but > psychologically disabled to the point where he was a danger to himself > and others.
> Reality is unforgiving. There is no escape. Behind the Jackson facade > was the horror of child abuse. Court records and reams of well- > documented media accounts contain a stream of serious allegations of > child sex abuse and other inappropriate behavior with very young boys. > Jackson, a multimillionaire megastar, was excused as an eccentric. > Small children were delivered into his company, to spend the night in > his bed, often by their parents.
> One case of alleged pedophilia against Jackson, the details of which > would make your hair stand on end, was settled for a reported $25 > million. He beat another case in court.
> The Michael-mania that has erupted since Jackson’s death — not just an > appreciation of his music, but a giddy celebration of his life — is > yet another spasm of the culture opting for fantasy over reality. We > don’t want to look under the rock that was Jackson’s real life.
> As with so many other things, we don’t want to know.
That is not interesting, it's just pathetic. So that journalist thinks that he knws what the reality was, but everyone else, including the jury, is wrong?. Maybe he wouldn't mind presenting some evidence, 'casue I don't think his word is good enough.
Really, it's him who seems to be living in a fantasy world.
> On Jul 4, 10:11 am, F Parella <f_pare...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > On Jul 4, 10:40 am, Fattuchus <fattuc...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > > Interesting OP ED in the NY Times:
> > > Op-Ed Columnist > > > Behind the Facade > > > By BOB HERBERT > > > Meeting Michael Jackson in the mid-1980s was one of the creepier > > > experiences of my life. I was an editor at The Daily News and had to > > > present him with an award in a large room with just a handful of > > > onlookers and a photographer at Madison Square Garden.
> > > I wasn’t put off by the fact that Jackson, then in his mid-20s, > > > couldn’t make small talk. Lots of people have trouble with that. There > > > was something about his overall behavior that weirded me out. He > > > seemed, even then, to be a person who was trying with all of his being > > > to step outside of reality and leave it behind.
> > > Emmanuel Lewis, the child star of the hit TV series “Webster,” was > > > with Jackson that evening. The undersized Lewis was probably 13 at the > > > time, but he looked much younger, maybe 7 or 8.
> > > Jackson seemed to relate only to Lewis. He made faces at the tiny boy > > > and giggled as Lewis hopped around and climbed over furniture, much to > > > Jackson’s delight. I remember thinking as I left the Garden that > > > Jackson had treated Lewis almost as a pet.
> > > I’ve never heard any suggestion of anything improper about the > > > relationship between Jackson and Lewis. But what I wish I had thought > > > more about in those long-ago days of Michael-mania was the era of > > > extreme immaturity and grotesque irresponsibility that was already > > > well under way in America. The craziness played out on a shockingly > > > broad front and Jackson’s life, among many others, would prove to be a > > > shining and ultimately tragic example. . . . . . . . . . .
> > > Motown was the label that gave us the Jackson 5. But when Michael and > > > his brothers released their first album in 1969, the label had already > > > reached its creative peak and most of the best work — the stunning > > > originality of the Miracles, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells, Martha and > > > the Vandellas, the Supremes, the Temptations, and others — had been > > > done. Hip-hop would soon appear, and then the violence and misogyny of > > > gangsta rap.
> > > All kinds of restraints were coming off. It was almost as if the > > > adults had gone into hiding. The deregulation that we were told would > > > be great for the economy was being applied to the culture as a whole. > > > Women could be treated as sex objects again as misogyny, hardly > > > limited to hip-hop, went mainstream. (Have you looked at network > > > television lately, or listened to the radio?) Astonishing numbers of > > > men abandoned their children with impunity. Most of the nation seemed > > > fine with the idea of going to war without a draft and without raising > > > taxes.
> > > In many ways we descended as a society into a fantasyland, trying to > > > leave the limits and consequences and obligations of the real world > > > behind. Politicians stopped talking about the poor. We built up > > > staggering amounts of debt and called it an economic boom. We shipped > > > jobs overseas by the millions without ever thinking seriously about > > > how to replace them. We let New Orleans drown.
> > > Jackson was the perfect star for the era, the embodiment of fantasy > > > gone wild. He tried to carve himself up into another person, but, of > > > course, there was the same Michael Jackson underneath — talented but > > > psychologically disabled to the point where he was a danger to himself > > > and others.
> > > Reality is unforgiving. There is no escape. Behind the Jackson facade > > > was the horror of child abuse. Court records and reams of well- > > > documented media accounts contain a stream of serious allegations of > > > child sex abuse and other inappropriate behavior with very young boys. > > > Jackson, a multimillionaire megastar, was excused as an eccentric. > > > Small children were delivered into his company, to spend the night in > > > his bed, often by their parents.
> > > One case of alleged pedophilia against Jackson, the details of which > > > would make your hair stand on end, was settled for a reported $25 > > > million. He beat another case in court.
> > > The Michael-mania that has erupted since Jackson’s death — not just an > > > appreciation of his music, but a giddy celebration of his life — is > > > yet another spasm of the culture opting for fantasy over reality. We > > > don’t want to look under the rock that was Jackson’s real life.
> > > As with so many other things, we don’t want to know.
> > That's the best article on Jackson I've read since his death. I'm > > incredibly bored with puff pieces, claims about Jacko's supposed > > "musical genius," and with credulous idiots who buy his "Peter Pan" > > facade at face value. Thanks, Fatt!- Hide quoted text -
> > - Show quoted text -
> As a Jackson fan, I am saddened by his death, and frankly, I do enjoy > the puff pieces. They are comforting at this difficult time. > However, I must admit that the aboved op/ed piece struck me as > objective, realistic and honest.
> MJ was very talented and a wonderful entertainer, but beneath that > surgically altered appearance, there was a very dark side. I think he > was a tormented, suffering soul.
> Herbert's comments about Emmanuel Lewis are both shocking and > honest . . . . Jackson seemed to be very entertained by Lewis, > treating him "almost as a pet."
> I don't claim that Jackson engaged in any sexual impropriety, but > there is something very wrong when a grown man does not relate much to > other adults and has such a fascination with children.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> - Mostrar texto de la cita -
Sorry Fattuchus, but there's nothing objective about that piece. And he doesn claim that Michael was a child abuser.
> > > > Op-Ed Columnist > > > > Behind the Facade > > > > By BOB HERBERT > > > > Meeting Michael Jackson in the mid-1980s was one of the creepier > > > > experiences of my life. I was an editor at The Daily News and had to > > > > present him with an award in a large room with just a handful of > > > > onlookers and a photographer at Madison Square Garden.
> > > > I wasn’t put off by the fact that Jackson, then in his mid-20s, > > > > couldn’t make small talk. Lots of people have trouble with that. There > > > > was something about his overall behavior that weirded me out. He > > > > seemed, even then, to be a person who was trying with all of his being > > > > to step outside of reality and leave it behind.
> > > > Emmanuel Lewis, the child star of the hit TV series “Webster,” was > > > > with Jackson that evening. The undersized Lewis was probably 13 at the > > > > time, but he looked much younger, maybe 7 or 8.
> > > > Jackson seemed to relate only to Lewis. He made faces at the tiny boy > > > > and giggled as Lewis hopped around and climbed over furniture, much to > > > > Jackson’s delight. I remember thinking as I left the Garden that > > > > Jackson had treated Lewis almost as a pet.
> > > > I’ve never heard any suggestion of anything improper about the > > > > relationship between Jackson and Lewis. But what I wish I had thought > > > > more about in those long-ago days of Michael-mania was the era of > > > > extreme immaturity and grotesque irresponsibility that was already > > > > well under way in America. The craziness played out on a shockingly > > > > broad front and Jackson’s life, among many others, would prove to be a > > > > shining and ultimately tragic example. . . . . . . . . . .
> > > > Motown was the label that gave us the Jackson 5. But when Michael and > > > > his brothers released their first album in 1969, the label had already > > > > reached its creative peak and most of the best work — the stunning > > > > originality of the Miracles, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells, Martha and > > > > the Vandellas, the Supremes, the Temptations, and others — had been > > > > done. Hip-hop would soon appear, and then the violence and misogyny of > > > > gangsta rap.
> > > > All kinds of restraints were coming off. It was almost as if the > > > > adults had gone into hiding. The deregulation that we were told would > > > > be great for the economy was being applied to the culture as a whole. > > > > Women could be treated as sex objects again as misogyny, hardly > > > > limited to hip-hop, went mainstream. (Have you looked at network > > > > television lately, or listened to the radio?) Astonishing numbers of > > > > men abandoned their children with impunity. Most of the nation seemed > > > > fine with the idea of going to war without a draft and without raising > > > > taxes.
> > > > In many ways we descended as a society into a fantasyland, trying to > > > > leave the limits and consequences and obligations of the real world > > > > behind. Politicians stopped talking about the poor. We built up > > > > staggering amounts of debt and called it an economic boom. We shipped > > > > jobs overseas by the millions without ever thinking seriously about > > > > how to replace them. We let New Orleans drown.
> > > > Jackson was the perfect star for the era, the embodiment of fantasy > > > > gone wild. He tried to carve himself up into another person, but, of > > > > course, there was the same Michael Jackson underneath — talented but > > > > psychologically disabled to the point where he was a danger to himself > > > > and others.
> > > > Reality is unforgiving. There is no escape. Behind the Jackson facade > > > > was the horror of child abuse. Court records and reams of well- > > > > documented media accounts contain a stream of serious allegations of > > > > child sex abuse and other inappropriate behavior with very young boys. > > > > Jackson, a multimillionaire megastar, was excused as an eccentric. > > > > Small children were delivered into his company, to spend the night in > > > > his bed, often by their parents.
> > > > One case of alleged pedophilia against Jackson, the details of which > > > > would make your hair stand on end, was settled for a reported $25 > > > > million. He beat another case in court.
> > > > The Michael-mania that has erupted since Jackson’s death — not just an > > > > appreciation of his music, but a giddy celebration of his life — is > > > > yet another spasm of the culture opting for fantasy over reality. We > > > > don’t want to look under the rock that was Jackson’s real life.
> > > > As with so many other things, we don’t want to know.
> > > That's the best article on Jackson I've read since his death. I'm > > > incredibly bored with puff pieces, claims about Jacko's supposed > > > "musical genius," and with credulous idiots who buy his "Peter Pan" > > > facade at face value. Thanks, Fatt!- Hide quoted text -
> > > - Show quoted text -
> > As a Jackson fan, I am saddened by his death, and frankly, I do enjoy > > the puff pieces. They are comforting at this difficult time. > > However, I must admit that the aboved op/ed piece struck me as > > objective, realistic and honest.
> > MJ was very talented and a wonderful entertainer, but beneath that > > surgically altered appearance, there was a very dark side. I think he > > was a tormented, suffering soul.
> > Herbert's comments about Emmanuel Lewis are both shocking and > > honest . . . . Jackson seemed to be very entertained by Lewis, > > treating him "almost as a pet."
> > I don't claim that Jackson engaged in any sexual impropriety, but > > there is something very wrong when a grown man does not relate much to > > other adults and has such a fascination with children.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> Sorry Fattuchus, but there's nothing objective about that piece. And > he doesn claim that Michael was a child abuser.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
The claim of child abuse does bother me. Yes, the author is perhaps too harsh.
But there is no question that Michael Jackson longed for the company of children, particularly pre teen boys. I've read too much about it. And I saw the interview Michael Jackson gave to Martin Bashir. Did you see that? It was very weird.
Jackson befriended a pre teen boy . . . .he may have been a cancer patient. The kid was sitting next to Michael during an interview and told Bashir on camera something to the effect of, "I want to sleep in his bed. I really want to sleep in his bed." And IIRC Jackson made some remark that the kid begged to sleep in his bed so Jackson told Bashir he said, "Yes" but he slept on the floor.
During the interview Michael and this boy were holding hands. Tightly. Fingers interlocked. Like boyfriend and girlfriend. Or like the way a parent might hold the hand of a 6 year old child while crossing the street.
> > > > > Op-Ed Columnist > > > > > Behind the Facade > > > > > By BOB HERBERT > > > > > Meeting Michael Jackson in the mid-1980s was one of the creepier > > > > > experiences of my life. I was an editor at The Daily News and had to > > > > > present him with an award in a large room with just a handful of > > > > > onlookers and a photographer at Madison Square Garden.
> > > > > I wasn’t put off by the fact that Jackson, then in his mid-20s, > > > > > couldn’t make small talk. Lots of people have trouble with that. There > > > > > was something about his overall behavior that weirded me out. He > > > > > seemed, even then, to be a person who was trying with all of his being > > > > > to step outside of reality and leave it behind.
> > > > > Emmanuel Lewis, the child star of the hit TV series “Webster,” was > > > > > with Jackson that evening. The undersized Lewis was probably 13 at the > > > > > time, but he looked much younger, maybe 7 or 8.
> > > > > Jackson seemed to relate only to Lewis. He made faces at the tiny boy > > > > > and giggled as Lewis hopped around and climbed over furniture, much to > > > > > Jackson’s delight. I remember thinking as I left the Garden that > > > > > Jackson had treated Lewis almost as a pet.
> > > > > I’ve never heard any suggestion of anything improper about the > > > > > relationship between Jackson and Lewis. But what I wish I had thought > > > > > more about in those long-ago days of Michael-mania was the era of > > > > > extreme immaturity and grotesque irresponsibility that was already > > > > > well under way in America. The craziness played out on a shockingly > > > > > broad front and Jackson’s life, among many others, would prove to be a > > > > > shining and ultimately tragic example. . . . . . . . . . .
> > > > > Motown was the label that gave us the Jackson 5. But when Michael and > > > > > his brothers released their first album in 1969, the label had already > > > > > reached its creative peak and most of the best work — the stunning > > > > > originality of the Miracles, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells, Martha and > > > > > the Vandellas, the Supremes, the Temptations, and others — had been > > > > > done. Hip-hop would soon appear, and then the violence and misogyny of > > > > > gangsta rap.
> > > > > All kinds of restraints were coming off. It was almost as if the > > > > > adults had gone into hiding. The deregulation that we were told would > > > > > be great for the economy was being applied to the culture as a whole. > > > > > Women could be treated as sex objects again as misogyny, hardly > > > > > limited to hip-hop, went mainstream. (Have you looked at network > > > > > television lately, or listened to the radio?) Astonishing numbers of > > > > > men abandoned their children with impunity. Most of the nation seemed > > > > > fine with the idea of going to war without a draft and without raising > > > > > taxes.
> > > > > In many ways we descended as a society into a fantasyland, trying to > > > > > leave the limits and consequences and obligations of the real world > > > > > behind. Politicians stopped talking about the poor. We built up > > > > > staggering amounts of debt and called it an economic boom. We shipped > > > > > jobs overseas by the millions without ever thinking seriously about > > > > > how to replace them. We let New Orleans drown.
> > > > > Jackson was the perfect star for the era, the embodiment of fantasy > > > > > gone wild. He tried to carve himself up into another person, but, of > > > > > course, there was the same Michael Jackson underneath — talented but > > > > > psychologically disabled to the point where he was a danger to himself > > > > > and others.
> > > > > Reality is unforgiving. There is no escape. Behind the Jackson facade > > > > > was the horror of child abuse. Court records and reams of well- > > > > > documented media accounts contain a stream of serious allegations of > > > > > child sex abuse and other inappropriate behavior with very young boys. > > > > > Jackson, a multimillionaire megastar, was excused as an eccentric. > > > > > Small children were delivered into his company, to spend the night in > > > > > his bed, often by their parents.
> > > > > One case of alleged pedophilia against Jackson, the details of which > > > > > would make your hair stand on end, was settled for a reported $25 > > > > > million. He beat another case in court.
> > > > > The Michael-mania that has erupted since Jackson’s death — not just an > > > > > appreciation of his music, but a giddy celebration of his life — is > > > > > yet another spasm of the culture opting for fantasy over reality. We > > > > > don’t want to look under the rock that was Jackson’s real life.
> > > > > As with so many other things, we don’t want to know.
> > > > That's the best article on Jackson I've read since his death. I'm > > > > incredibly bored with puff pieces, claims about Jacko's supposed > > > > "musical genius," and with credulous idiots who buy his "Peter Pan" > > > > facade at face value. Thanks, Fatt!- Hide quoted text -
> > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > As a Jackson fan, I am saddened by his death, and frankly, I do enjoy > > > the puff pieces. They are comforting at this difficult time. > > > However, I must admit that the aboved op/ed piece struck me as > > > objective, realistic and honest.
> > > MJ was very talented and a wonderful entertainer, but beneath that > > > surgically altered appearance, there was a very dark side. I think he > > > was a tormented, suffering soul.
> > > Herbert's comments about Emmanuel Lewis are both shocking and > > > honest . . . . Jackson seemed to be very entertained by Lewis, > > > treating him "almost as a pet."
> > > I don't claim that Jackson engaged in any sexual impropriety, but > > > there is something very wrong when a grown man does not relate much to > > > other adults and has such a fascination with children.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> > Sorry Fattuchus, but there's nothing objective about that piece. And > > he doesn claim that Michael was a child abuser.- Hide quoted text -
> > - Show quoted text -
> The claim of child abuse does bother me. Yes, the author is perhaps > too harsh.
> But there is no question that Michael Jackson longed for the company > of children, particularly pre teen boys. I've read too much about it. > And I saw the interview Michael Jackson gave to Martin Bashir. Did you > see that? It was very weird.
> Jackson befriended a pre teen boy . . . .he may have been a cancer > patient. The kid was sitting next to Michael during an interview and > told Bashir on camera something to the effect of, "I want to sleep in > his bed. I really want to sleep in his bed." And IIRC Jackson made > some remark that the kid begged to sleep in his bed so Jackson told > Bashir he said, "Yes" but he slept on the floor.
> During the interview Michael and this boy were holding hands. Tightly. > Fingers interlocked. Like boyfriend and girlfriend. Or like the way > a parent might hold the hand of a 6 year old child while crossing the > street.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> - Mostrar texto de la cita -
I haven't seen the documentary. Maybe when I finish with my exams I will. But I have seen that part of the interview on TV. It did look a little weird, but I've only seen a part of it, and it seems Bashir, the interviewer, isn't particularly objective... Plus, Michael did look pretty strange due to all the platic surgery. Anyway, The kid was not a pre-teen, he was like 12. He was a cancer survivor. From what I've read, Michael befriended him and his family, paying for his treatment and all. It seems they were all living in his house. That kid is the one who made the accusations that led to the 2003 trial. He claimed though, that the abuse went on after the interview took place.
You know, I don't remember if I said it here, but I had kind of assumed that the acusations were true, 'cause it wasn't the first accusation, and because he acted in what seemed such a strange way, particularly his turning his skin white. But now that he died I went and read about it, about the trial and accusations, and they look quite weak. It's just testimonials (and many of those witnesses seem quite unreliable) against him, and testimonials on favour of him, like Macauly Culkin, of kids who spet time with him and even slept in his bed and who insis that nothing happened. And he had vitiligo, that is why he was white. Anyway, what I mean is that I feel kinda guilty about having assumed he was probably guilty without doing any research.
> > > > Op-Ed Columnist > > > > Behind the Facade > > > > By BOB HERBERT > > > > Meeting Michael Jackson in the mid-1980s was one of the creepier > > > > experiences of my life. I was an editor at The Daily News and had to > > > > present him with an award in a large room with just a handful of > > > > onlookers and a photographer at Madison Square Garden.
> > > > I wasn’t put off by the fact that Jackson, then in his mid-20s, > > > > couldn’t make small talk. Lots of people have trouble with that. There > > > > was something about his overall behavior that weirded me out. He > > > > seemed, even then, to be a person who was trying with all of his being > > > > to step outside of reality and leave it behind.
> > > > Emmanuel Lewis, the child star of the hit TV series “Webster,” was > > > > with Jackson that evening. The undersized Lewis was probably 13 at the > > > > time, but he looked much younger, maybe 7 or 8.
> > > > Jackson seemed to relate only to Lewis. He made faces at the tiny boy > > > > and giggled as Lewis hopped around and climbed over furniture, much to > > > > Jackson’s delight. I remember thinking as I left the Garden that > > > > Jackson had treated Lewis almost as a pet.
> > > > I’ve never heard any suggestion of anything improper about the > > > > relationship between Jackson and Lewis. But what I wish I had thought > > > > more about in those long-ago days of Michael-mania was the era of > > > > extreme immaturity and grotesque irresponsibility that was already > > > > well under way in America. The craziness played out on a shockingly > > > > broad front and Jackson’s life, among many others, would prove to be a > > > > shining and ultimately tragic example. . . . . . . . . . .
> > > > Motown was the label that gave us the Jackson 5. But when Michael and > > > > his brothers released their first album in 1969, the label had already > > > > reached its creative peak and most of the best work — the stunning > > > > originality of the Miracles, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells, Martha and > > > > the Vandellas, the Supremes, the Temptations, and others — had been > > > > done. Hip-hop would soon appear, and then the violence and misogyny of > > > > gangsta rap.
> > > > All kinds of restraints were coming off. It was almost as if the > > > > adults had gone into hiding. The deregulation that we were told would > > > > be great for the economy was being applied to the culture as a whole. > > > > Women could be treated as sex objects again as misogyny, hardly > > > > limited to hip-hop, went mainstream. (Have you looked at network > > > > television lately, or listened to the radio?) Astonishing numbers of > > > > men abandoned their children with impunity. Most of the nation seemed > > > > fine with the idea of going to war without a draft and without raising > > > > taxes.
> > > > In many ways we descended as a society into a fantasyland, trying to > > > > leave the limits and consequences and obligations of the real world > > > > behind. Politicians stopped talking about the poor. We built up > > > > staggering amounts of debt and called it an economic boom. We shipped > > > > jobs overseas by the millions without ever thinking seriously about > > > > how to replace them. We let New Orleans drown.
> > > > Jackson was the perfect star for the era, the embodiment of fantasy > > > > gone wild. He tried to carve himself up into another person, but, of > > > > course, there was the same Michael Jackson underneath — talented but > > > > psychologically disabled to the point where he was a danger to himself > > > > and others.
> > > > Reality is unforgiving. There is no escape. Behind the Jackson facade > > > > was the horror of child abuse. Court records and reams of well- > > > > documented media accounts contain a stream of serious allegations of > > > > child sex abuse and other inappropriate behavior with very young boys. > > > > Jackson, a multimillionaire megastar, was excused as an eccentric. > > > > Small children were delivered into his company, to spend the night in > > > > his bed, often by their parents.
> > > > One case of alleged pedophilia against Jackson, the details of which > > > > would make your hair stand on end, was settled for a reported $25 > > > > million. He beat another case in court.
> > > > The Michael-mania that has erupted since Jackson’s death — not just an > > > > appreciation of his music, but a giddy celebration of his life — is > > > > yet another spasm of the culture opting for fantasy over reality. We > > > > don’t want to look under the rock that was Jackson’s real life.
> > > > As with so many other things, we don’t want to know.
> > > That's the best article on Jackson I've read since his death. I'm > > > incredibly bored with puff pieces, claims about Jacko's supposed > > > "musical genius," and with credulous idiots who buy his "Peter Pan" > > > facade at face value. Thanks, Fatt!- Hide quoted text -
> > > - Show quoted text -
> > As a Jackson fan, I am saddened by his death, and frankly, I do enjoy > > the puff pieces. They are comforting at this difficult time. > > However, I must admit that the aboved op/ed piece struck me as > > objective, realistic and honest.
> > MJ was very talented and a wonderful entertainer, but beneath that > > surgically altered appearance, there was a very dark side. I think he > > was a tormented, suffering soul.
> > Herbert's comments about Emmanuel Lewis are both shocking and > > honest . . . . Jackson seemed to be very entertained by Lewis, > > treating him "almost as a pet."
> > I don't claim that Jackson engaged in any sexual impropriety, but > > there is something very wrong when a grown man does not relate much to > > other adults and has such a fascination with children.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> Sorry Fattuchus, but there's nothing objective about that piece. And > he doesn claim that Michael was a child abuser.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
25 million dollar pay-out, just so he stays out of prison? Guilty.
> > > > > Op-Ed Columnist > > > > > Behind the Facade > > > > > By BOB HERBERT > > > > > Meeting Michael Jackson in the mid-1980s was one of the creepier > > > > > experiences of my life. I was an editor at The Daily News and had to > > > > > present him with an award in a large room with just a handful of > > > > > onlookers and a photographer at Madison Square Garden.
> > > > > I wasn’t put off by the fact that Jackson, then in his mid-20s, > > > > > couldn’t make small talk. Lots of people have trouble with that. There > > > > > was something about his overall behavior that weirded me out. He > > > > > seemed, even then, to be a person who was trying with all of his being > > > > > to step outside of reality and leave it behind.
> > > > > Emmanuel Lewis, the child star of the hit TV series “Webster,” was > > > > > with Jackson that evening. The undersized Lewis was probably 13 at the > > > > > time, but he looked much younger, maybe 7 or 8.
> > > > > Jackson seemed to relate only to Lewis. He made faces at the tiny boy > > > > > and giggled as Lewis hopped around and climbed over furniture, much to > > > > > Jackson’s delight. I remember thinking as I left the Garden that > > > > > Jackson had treated Lewis almost as a pet.
> > > > > I’ve never heard any suggestion of anything improper about the > > > > > relationship between Jackson and Lewis. But what I wish I had thought > > > > > more about in those long-ago days of Michael-mania was the era of > > > > > extreme immaturity and grotesque irresponsibility that was already > > > > > well under way in America. The craziness played out on a shockingly > > > > > broad front and Jackson’s life, among many others, would prove to be a > > > > > shining and ultimately tragic example. . . . . . . . . . .
> > > > > Motown was the label that gave us the Jackson 5. But when Michael and > > > > > his brothers released their first album in 1969, the label had already > > > > > reached its creative peak and most of the best work — the stunning > > > > > originality of the Miracles, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells, Martha and > > > > > the Vandellas, the Supremes, the Temptations, and others — had been > > > > > done. Hip-hop would soon appear, and then the violence and misogyny of > > > > > gangsta rap.
> > > > > All kinds of restraints were coming off. It was almost as if the > > > > > adults had gone into hiding. The deregulation that we were told would > > > > > be great for the economy was being applied to the culture as a whole. > > > > > Women could be treated as sex objects again as misogyny, hardly > > > > > limited to hip-hop, went mainstream. (Have you looked at network > > > > > television lately, or listened to the radio?) Astonishing numbers of > > > > > men abandoned their children with impunity. Most of the nation seemed > > > > > fine with the idea of going to war without a draft and without raising > > > > > taxes.
> > > > > In many ways we descended as a society into a fantasyland, trying to > > > > > leave the limits and consequences and obligations of the real world > > > > > behind. Politicians stopped talking about the poor. We built up > > > > > staggering amounts of debt and called it an economic boom. We shipped > > > > > jobs overseas by the millions without ever thinking seriously about > > > > > how to replace them. We let New Orleans drown.
> > > > > Jackson was the perfect star for the era, the embodiment of fantasy > > > > > gone wild. He tried to carve himself up into another person, but, of > > > > > course, there was the same Michael Jackson underneath — talented but > > > > > psychologically disabled to the point where he was a danger to himself > > > > > and others.
> > > > > Reality is unforgiving. There is no escape. Behind the Jackson facade > > > > > was the horror of child abuse. Court records and reams of well- > > > > > documented media accounts contain a stream of serious allegations of > > > > > child sex abuse and other inappropriate behavior with very young boys. > > > > > Jackson, a multimillionaire megastar, was excused as an eccentric. > > > > > Small children were delivered into his company, to spend the night in > > > > > his bed, often by their parents.
> > > > > One case of alleged pedophilia against Jackson, the details of which > > > > > would make your hair stand on end, was settled for a reported $25 > > > > > million. He beat another case in court.
> > > > > The Michael-mania that has erupted since Jackson’s death — not just an > > > > > appreciation of his music, but a giddy celebration of his life — is > > > > > yet another spasm of the culture opting for fantasy over reality. We > > > > > don’t want to look under the rock that was Jackson’s real life.
> > > > > As with so many other things, we don’t want to know.
> > > > That's the best article on Jackson I've read since his death. I'm > > > > incredibly bored with puff pieces, claims about Jacko's supposed > > > > "musical genius," and with credulous idiots who buy his "Peter Pan" > > > > facade at face value. Thanks, Fatt!- Hide quoted text -
> > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > As a Jackson fan, I am saddened by his death, and frankly, I do enjoy > > > the puff pieces. They are comforting at this difficult time. > > > However, I must admit that the aboved op/ed piece struck me as > > > objective, realistic and honest.
> > > MJ was very talented and a wonderful entertainer, but beneath that > > > surgically altered appearance, there was a very dark side. I think he > > > was a tormented, suffering soul.
> > > Herbert's comments about Emmanuel Lewis are both shocking and > > > honest . . . . Jackson seemed to be very entertained by Lewis, > > > treating him "almost as a pet."
> > > I don't claim that Jackson engaged in any sexual impropriety, but > > > there is something very wrong when a grown man does not relate much to > > > other adults and has such a fascination with children.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> > Sorry Fattuchus, but there's nothing objective about that piece. And > > he doesn claim that Michael was a child abuser.- Hide quoted text -
> > - Show quoted text -
> 25 million dollar pay-out, just so he stays out of prison? > Guilty.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> - Mostrar texto de la cita -
Not good enough reasoning. What about the kid's family, who accepted the pay out?, doesn't it look like that was all they wanted?.
> > > > > > Op-Ed Columnist > > > > > > Behind the Facade > > > > > > By BOB HERBERT > > > > > > Meeting Michael Jackson in the mid-1980s was one of the creepier > > > > > > experiences of my life. I was an editor at The Daily News and had to > > > > > > present him with an award in a large room with just a handful of > > > > > > onlookers and a photographer at Madison Square Garden.
> > > > > > I wasn’t put off by the fact that Jackson, then in his mid-20s, > > > > > > couldn’t make small talk. Lots of people have trouble with that. There > > > > > > was something about his overall behavior that weirded me out. He > > > > > > seemed, even then, to be a person who was trying with all of his being > > > > > > to step outside of reality and leave it behind.
> > > > > > Emmanuel Lewis, the child star of the hit TV series “Webster,” was > > > > > > with Jackson that evening. The undersized Lewis was probably 13 at the > > > > > > time, but he looked much younger, maybe 7 or 8.
> > > > > > Jackson seemed to relate only to Lewis. He made faces at the tiny boy > > > > > > and giggled as Lewis hopped around and climbed over furniture, much to > > > > > > Jackson’s delight. I remember thinking as I left the Garden that > > > > > > Jackson had treated Lewis almost as a pet.
> > > > > > I’ve never heard any suggestion of anything improper about the > > > > > > relationship between Jackson and Lewis. But what I wish I had thought > > > > > > more about in those long-ago days of Michael-mania was the era of > > > > > > extreme immaturity and grotesque irresponsibility that was already > > > > > > well under way in America. The craziness played out on a shockingly > > > > > > broad front and Jackson’s life, among many others, would prove to be a > > > > > > shining and ultimately tragic example. . . . . . . . . . .
> > > > > > Motown was the label that gave us the Jackson 5. But when Michael and > > > > > > his brothers released their first album in 1969, the label had already > > > > > > reached its creative peak and most of the best work — the stunning > > > > > > originality of the Miracles, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells, Martha and > > > > > > the Vandellas, the Supremes, the Temptations, and others — had been > > > > > > done. Hip-hop would soon appear, and then the violence and misogyny of > > > > > > gangsta rap.
> > > > > > All kinds of restraints were coming off. It was almost as if the > > > > > > adults had gone into hiding. The deregulation that we were told would > > > > > > be great for the economy was being applied to the culture as a whole. > > > > > > Women could be treated as sex objects again as misogyny, hardly > > > > > > limited to hip-hop, went mainstream. (Have you looked at network > > > > > > television lately, or listened to the radio?) Astonishing numbers of > > > > > > men abandoned their children with impunity. Most of the nation seemed > > > > > > fine with the idea of going to war without a draft and without raising > > > > > > taxes.
> > > > > > In many ways we descended as a society into a fantasyland, trying to > > > > > > leave the limits and consequences and obligations of the real world > > > > > > behind. Politicians stopped talking about the poor. We built up > > > > > > staggering amounts of debt and called it an economic boom. We shipped > > > > > > jobs overseas by the millions without ever thinking seriously about > > > > > > how to replace them. We let New Orleans drown.
> > > > > > Jackson was the perfect star for the era, the embodiment of fantasy > > > > > > gone wild. He tried to carve himself up into another person, but, of > > > > > > course, there was the same Michael Jackson underneath — talented but > > > > > > psychologically disabled to the point where he was a danger to himself > > > > > > and others.
> > > > > > Reality is unforgiving. There is no escape. Behind the Jackson facade > > > > > > was the horror of child abuse. Court records and reams of well- > > > > > > documented media accounts contain a stream of serious allegations of > > > > > > child sex abuse and other inappropriate behavior with very young boys. > > > > > > Jackson, a multimillionaire megastar, was excused as an eccentric. > > > > > > Small children were delivered into his company, to spend the night in > > > > > > his bed, often by their parents.
> > > > > > One case of alleged pedophilia against Jackson, the details of which > > > > > > would make your hair stand on end, was settled for a reported $25 > > > > > > million. He beat another case in court.
> > > > > > The Michael-mania that has erupted since Jackson’s death — not just an > > > > > > appreciation of his music, but a giddy celebration of his life — is > > > > > > yet another spasm of the culture opting for fantasy over reality. We > > > > > > don’t want to look under the rock that was Jackson’s real life.
> > > > > > As with so many other things, we don’t want to know.
> > > > > That's the best article on Jackson I've read since his death. I'm > > > > > incredibly bored with puff pieces, claims about Jacko's supposed > > > > > "musical genius," and with credulous idiots who buy his "Peter Pan" > > > > > facade at face value. Thanks, Fatt!- Hide quoted text -
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > > As a Jackson fan, I am saddened by his death, and frankly, I do enjoy > > > > the puff pieces. They are comforting at this difficult time. > > > > However, I must admit that the aboved op/ed piece struck me as > > > > objective, realistic and honest.
> > > > MJ was very talented and a wonderful entertainer, but beneath that > > > > surgically altered appearance, there was a very dark side. I think he > > > > was a tormented, suffering soul.
> > > > Herbert's comments about Emmanuel Lewis are both shocking and > > > > honest . . . . Jackson seemed to be very entertained by Lewis, > > > > treating him "almost as a pet."
> > > > I don't claim that Jackson engaged in any sexual impropriety, but > > > > there is something very wrong when a grown man does not relate much to > > > > other adults and has such a fascination with children.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > > > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> > > Sorry Fattuchus, but there's nothing objective about that piece. And > > > he doesn claim that Michael was a child abuser.- Hide quoted text -
> > > - Show quoted text -
> > 25 million dollar pay-out, just so he stays out of prison? > > Guilty.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> Not good enough reasoning. What about the kid's family, who accepted > the pay out?, doesn't it look like that was all they wanted?.- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
You can stick up for him all you want, in my opinon he was a pervert that did not care for the safety of his own kids, remember him hanging his kid over the balcolny? They kid should have been taken away right then and there and him being charged with child-endangerment.
> > > > > > > Op-Ed Columnist > > > > > > > Behind the Facade > > > > > > > By BOB HERBERT > > > > > > > Meeting Michael Jackson in the mid-1980s was one of the creepier > > > > > > > experiences of my life. I was an editor at The Daily News and had to > > > > > > > present him with an award in a large room with just a handful of > > > > > > > onlookers and a photographer at Madison Square Garden.
> > > > > > > I wasn’t put off by the fact that Jackson, then in his mid-20s, > > > > > > > couldn’t make small talk. Lots of people have trouble with that. There > > > > > > > was something about his overall behavior that weirded me out. He > > > > > > > seemed, even then, to be a person who was trying with all of his being > > > > > > > to step outside of reality and leave it behind.
> > > > > > > Emmanuel Lewis, the child star of the hit TV series “Webster,” was > > > > > > > with Jackson that evening. The undersized Lewis was probably 13 at the > > > > > > > time, but he looked much younger, maybe 7 or 8.
> > > > > > > Jackson seemed to relate only to Lewis. He made faces at the tiny boy > > > > > > > and giggled as Lewis hopped around and climbed over furniture, much to > > > > > > > Jackson’s delight. I remember thinking as I left the Garden that > > > > > > > Jackson had treated Lewis almost as a pet.
> > > > > > > I’ve never heard any suggestion of anything improper about the > > > > > > > relationship between Jackson and Lewis. But what I wish I had thought > > > > > > > more about in those long-ago days of Michael-mania was the era of > > > > > > > extreme immaturity and grotesque irresponsibility that was already > > > > > > > well under way in America. The craziness played out on a shockingly > > > > > > > broad front and Jackson’s life, among many others, would prove to be a > > > > > > > shining and ultimately tragic example. . . . . . . . . . .
> > > > > > > Motown was the label that gave us the Jackson 5. But when Michael and > > > > > > > his brothers released their first album in 1969, the label had already > > > > > > > reached its creative peak and most of the best work — the stunning > > > > > > > originality of the Miracles, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells, Martha and > > > > > > > the Vandellas, the Supremes, the Temptations, and others — had been > > > > > > > done. Hip-hop would soon appear, and then the violence and misogyny of > > > > > > > gangsta rap.
> > > > > > > All kinds of restraints were coming off. It was almost as if the > > > > > > > adults had gone into hiding. The deregulation that we were told would > > > > > > > be great for the economy was being applied to the culture as a whole. > > > > > > > Women could be treated as sex objects again as misogyny, hardly > > > > > > > limited to hip-hop, went mainstream. (Have you looked at network > > > > > > > television lately, or listened to the radio?) Astonishing numbers of > > > > > > > men abandoned their children with impunity. Most of the nation seemed > > > > > > > fine with the idea of going to war without a draft and without raising > > > > > > > taxes.
> > > > > > > In many ways we descended as a society into a fantasyland, trying to > > > > > > > leave the limits and consequences and obligations of the real world > > > > > > > behind. Politicians stopped talking about the poor. We built up > > > > > > > staggering amounts of debt and called it an economic boom. We shipped > > > > > > > jobs overseas by the millions without ever thinking seriously about > > > > > > > how to replace them. We let New Orleans drown.
> > > > > > > Jackson was the perfect star for the era, the embodiment of fantasy > > > > > > > gone wild. He tried to carve himself up into another person, but, of > > > > > > > course, there was the same Michael Jackson underneath — talented but > > > > > > > psychologically disabled to the point where he was a danger to himself > > > > > > > and others.
> > > > > > > Reality is unforgiving. There is no escape. Behind the Jackson facade > > > > > > > was the horror of child abuse. Court records and reams of well- > > > > > > > documented media accounts contain a stream of serious allegations of > > > > > > > child sex abuse and other inappropriate behavior with very young boys. > > > > > > > Jackson, a multimillionaire megastar, was excused as an eccentric. > > > > > > > Small children were delivered into his company, to spend the night in > > > > > > > his bed, often by their parents.
> > > > > > > One case of alleged pedophilia against Jackson, the details of which > > > > > > > would make your hair stand on end, was settled for a reported $25 > > > > > > > million. He beat another case in court.
> > > > > > > The Michael-mania that has erupted since Jackson’s death — not just an > > > > > > > appreciation of his music, but a giddy celebration of his life — is > > > > > > > yet another spasm of the culture opting for fantasy over reality. We > > > > > > > don’t want to look under the rock that was Jackson’s real life.
> > > > > > > As with so many other things, we don’t want to know.
> > > > > > That's the best article on Jackson I've read since his death. I'm > > > > > > incredibly bored with puff pieces, claims about Jacko's supposed > > > > > > "musical genius," and with credulous idiots who buy his "Peter Pan" > > > > > > facade at face value. Thanks, Fatt!- Hide quoted text -
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > > > As a Jackson fan, I am saddened by his death, and frankly, I do enjoy > > > > > the puff pieces. They are comforting at this difficult time. > > > > > However, I must admit that the aboved op/ed piece struck me as > > > > > objective, realistic and honest.
> > > > > MJ was very talented and a wonderful entertainer, but beneath that > > > > > surgically altered appearance, there was a very dark side. I think he > > > > > was a tormented, suffering soul.
> > > > > Herbert's comments about Emmanuel Lewis are both shocking and > > > > > honest . . . . Jackson seemed to be very entertained by Lewis, > > > > > treating him "almost as a pet."
> > > > > I don't claim that Jackson engaged in any sexual impropriety, but > > > > > there is something very wrong when a grown man does not relate much to > > > > > other adults and has such a fascination with children.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > > > > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> > > > Sorry Fattuchus, but there's nothing objective about that piece. And > > > > he doesn claim that Michael was a child abuser.- Hide quoted text -
> > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > 25 million dollar pay-out, just so he stays out of prison? > > > Guilty.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> > Not good enough reasoning. What about the kid's family, who accepted > > the pay out?, doesn't it look like that was all they wanted?.- Hide quoted text -
> > - Show quoted text -
> You can stick up for him all you want, in my opinon he was a > pervert that did not care for the safety of his own kids, > remember him hanging his kid over the balcolny? > They kid should have been taken away right then and there and him > being charged with child-endangerment.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> - Mostrar texto de la cita -
So your opinion is he was a pervert. Well, like you said, that is an opinion, not an argument. I am interested in the facts. And there isn't enough evidence to consider him a pervert.
As for the baby in the balcony, it was reckless, but not as much as the papers made it seem. It's not like he left the baby alone in the balcony or something.
> > > > > > Op-Ed Columnist > > > > > > Behind the Facade > > > > > > By BOB HERBERT > > > > > > Meeting Michael Jackson in the mid-1980s was one of the creepier > > > > > > experiences of my life. I was an editor at The Daily News and had to > > > > > > present him with an award in a large room with just a handful of > > > > > > onlookers and a photographer at Madison Square Garden.
> > > > > > I wasn’t put off by the fact that Jackson, then in his mid-20s, > > > > > > couldn’t make small talk. Lots of people have trouble with that. There > > > > > > was something about his overall behavior that weirded me out. He > > > > > > seemed, even then, to be a person who was trying with all of his being > > > > > > to step outside of reality and leave it behind.
> > > > > > Emmanuel Lewis, the child star of the hit TV series “Webster,” was > > > > > > with Jackson that evening. The undersized Lewis was probably 13 at the > > > > > > time, but he looked much younger, maybe 7 or 8.
> > > > > > Jackson seemed to relate only to Lewis. He made faces at the tiny boy > > > > > > and giggled as Lewis hopped around and climbed over furniture, much to > > > > > > Jackson’s delight. I remember thinking as I left the Garden that > > > > > > Jackson had treated Lewis almost as a pet.
> > > > > > I’ve never heard any suggestion of anything improper about the > > > > > > relationship between Jackson and Lewis. But what I wish I had thought > > > > > > more about in those long-ago days of Michael-mania was the era of > > > > > > extreme immaturity and grotesque irresponsibility that was already > > > > > > well under way in America. The craziness played out on a shockingly > > > > > > broad front and Jackson’s life, among many others, would prove to be a > > > > > > shining and ultimately tragic example. . . . . . . . . . .
> > > > > > Motown was the label that gave us the Jackson 5. But when Michael and > > > > > > his brothers released their first album in 1969, the label had already > > > > > > reached its creative peak and most of the best work — the stunning > > > > > > originality of the Miracles, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells, Martha and > > > > > > the Vandellas, the Supremes, the Temptations, and others — had been > > > > > > done. Hip-hop would soon appear, and then the violence and misogyny of > > > > > > gangsta rap.
> > > > > > All kinds of restraints were coming off. It was almost as if the > > > > > > adults had gone into hiding. The deregulation that we were told would > > > > > > be great for the economy was being applied to the culture as a whole. > > > > > > Women could be treated as sex objects again as misogyny, hardly > > > > > > limited to hip-hop, went mainstream. (Have you looked at network > > > > > > television lately, or listened to the radio?) Astonishing numbers of > > > > > > men abandoned their children with impunity. Most of the nation seemed > > > > > > fine with the idea of going to war without a draft and without raising > > > > > > taxes.
> > > > > > In many ways we descended as a society into a fantasyland, trying to > > > > > > leave the limits and consequences and obligations of the real world > > > > > > behind. Politicians stopped talking about the poor. We built up > > > > > > staggering amounts of debt and called it an economic boom. We shipped > > > > > > jobs overseas by the millions without ever thinking seriously about > > > > > > how to replace them. We let New Orleans drown.
> > > > > > Jackson was the perfect star for the era, the embodiment of fantasy > > > > > > gone wild. He tried to carve himself up into another person, but, of > > > > > > course, there was the same Michael Jackson underneath — talented but > > > > > > psychologically disabled to the point where he was a danger to himself > > > > > > and others.
> > > > > > Reality is unforgiving. There is no escape. Behind the Jackson facade > > > > > > was the horror of child abuse. Court records and reams of well- > > > > > > documented media accounts contain a stream of serious allegations of > > > > > > child sex abuse and other inappropriate behavior with very young boys. > > > > > > Jackson, a multimillionaire megastar, was excused as an eccentric. > > > > > > Small children were delivered into his company, to spend the night in > > > > > > his bed, often by their parents.
> > > > > > One case of alleged pedophilia against Jackson, the details of which > > > > > > would make your hair stand on end, was settled for a reported $25 > > > > > > million. He beat another case in court.
> > > > > > The Michael-mania that has erupted since Jackson’s death — not just an > > > > > > appreciation of his music, but a giddy celebration of his life — is > > > > > > yet another spasm of the culture opting for fantasy over reality. We > > > > > > don’t want to look under the rock that was Jackson’s real life.
> > > > > > As with so many other things, we don’t want to know.
> > > > > That's the best article on Jackson I've read since his death. I'm > > > > > incredibly bored with puff pieces, claims about Jacko's supposed > > > > > "musical genius," and with credulous idiots who buy his "Peter Pan" > > > > > facade at face value. Thanks, Fatt!- Hide quoted text -
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > > As a Jackson fan, I am saddened by his death, and frankly, I do enjoy > > > > the puff pieces. They are comforting at this difficult time. > > > > However, I must admit that the aboved op/ed piece struck me as > > > > objective, realistic and honest.
> > > > MJ was very talented and a wonderful entertainer, but beneath that > > > > surgically altered appearance, there was a very dark side. I think he > > > > was a tormented, suffering soul.
> > > > Herbert's comments about Emmanuel Lewis are both shocking and > > > > honest . . . . Jackson seemed to be very entertained by Lewis, > > > > treating him "almost as a pet."
> > > > I don't claim that Jackson engaged in any sexual impropriety, but > > > > there is something very wrong when a grown man does not relate much to > > > > other adults and has such a fascination with children.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > > > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> > > Sorry Fattuchus, but there's nothing objective about that piece. And > > > he doesn claim that Michael was a child abuser.- Hide quoted text -
> > > - Show quoted text -
> > 25 million dollar pay-out, just so he stays out of prison? > > Guilty.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> Not good enough reasoning. What about the kid's family, who accepted > the pay out?, doesn't it look like that was all they wanted?.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> - Mostrar texto de la cita -
Plus, the first kid (cannot remember his name, but he's clearly the one you're talking about), was on some kind of heavy sedative when he told his father, given to him by his father. And his mother said she didn't think Michael had abused him. And the police interviewed the other kids who would hang around in Michael's house, including Macauly Culkin, and couldn't find someone to support the accusations.
On Jul 5, 5:55 pm, Crisstti <crissttigalda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> And he had vitiligo, that is why he was white.
That's what Jacko said. I don't believe it. Vitiligo does not whiten skin in the way that Jacko's skin whitened. Since you're one of the people in this group who is not afraid of reading, I'd encourage you to read up on that skin affliction.
BTW, I think Jacko cooked up some equally untrue explanation for that alterations in his facial structure - to McCartney, who later repeated it mockingly. Anyone who thinks the alterations in Jackson's appearance occurred naturally is extremely naive.
On 5 jul, 22:48, F Parella <f_pare...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 5, 5:55 pm, Crisstti <crissttigalda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > And he had vitiligo, that is why he was white.
> That's what Jacko said. I don't believe it. Vitiligo does not whiten > skin in the way that Jacko's skin whitened. Since you're one of the > people in this group who is not afraid of reading, I'd encourage you > to read up on that skin affliction.
> BTW, I think Jacko cooked up some equally untrue explanation for that > alterations in his facial structure - to McCartney, who later repeated > it mockingly. Anyone who thinks the alterations in Jackson's > appearance occurred naturally is extremely naive.
I did read about it. You know, I used to think that Micheal was a self hating black person, and it meade him seem quite crazy to me. I didn't believe that he had vitiligo. But I was in a negative predisposition. I looked it up, and it says that people choose to chemically decolorate their skin, using some cream, so that they don't have the large white spots that vitiligo produces. It would make sense that Michael would have gone for that option, given that he worked with his image... plus, he always had black people in his video clips, and was friends with black people and all... it doesn't seem like he disliked his race.
Also, I think his doctor showed some documents about this in some courtroom or something.
I read he was diagnosed with vitiligo and lupus (in remission) in the mid 80's.
On 5 jul, 22:48, F Parella <f_pare...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Jul 5, 5:55 pm, Crisstti <crissttigalda...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > And he had vitiligo, that is why he was white.
> BTW, I think Jacko cooked up some equally untrue explanation for that > alterations in his facial structure - to McCartney, who later repeated > it mockingly. Anyone who thinks the alterations in Jackson's > appearance occurred naturally is extremely naive.
I don't think his facial structure alterations ocurred naturally. He clearly has many (way too many) plastic surgeries. He seemed to have body dismorphic disorder, as I have said before here. About his skin colour, I already talked about above.
By the way, I haven't ever heard Paul say anything about that. Do you have a link?.
> > > > > > > > Interesting OP ED in the NY Times:
> > > > > > > > Op-Ed Columnist > > > > > > > > Behind the Facade > > > > > > > > By BOB HERBERT > > > > > > > > Meeting Michael Jackson in the mid-1980s was one of the creepier > > > > > > > > experiences of my life. I was an editor at The Daily News and had to > > > > > > > > present him with an award in a large room with just a handful of > > > > > > > > onlookers and a photographer at Madison Square Garden.
> > > > > > > > I wasn’t put off by the fact that Jackson, then in his mid-20s, > > > > > > > > couldn’t make small talk. Lots of people have trouble with that. There > > > > > > > > was something about his overall behavior that weirded me out. He > > > > > > > > seemed, even then, to be a person who was trying with all of his being > > > > > > > > to step outside of reality and leave it behind.
> > > > > > > > Emmanuel Lewis, the child star of the hit TV series “Webster,” was > > > > > > > > with Jackson that evening. The undersized Lewis was probably 13 at the > > > > > > > > time, but he looked much younger, maybe 7 or 8.
> > > > > > > > Jackson seemed to relate only to Lewis. He made faces at the tiny boy > > > > > > > > and giggled as Lewis hopped around and climbed over furniture, much to > > > > > > > > Jackson’s delight. I remember thinking as I left the Garden that > > > > > > > > Jackson had treated Lewis almost as a pet.
> > > > > > > > I’ve never heard any suggestion of anything improper about the > > > > > > > > relationship between Jackson and Lewis. But what I wish I had thought > > > > > > > > more about in those long-ago days of Michael-mania was the era of > > > > > > > > extreme immaturity and grotesque irresponsibility that was already > > > > > > > > well under way in America. The craziness played out on a shockingly > > > > > > > > broad front and Jackson’s life, among many others, would prove to be a > > > > > > > > shining and ultimately tragic example. . . . . . . . . . .
> > > > > > > > Motown was the label that gave us the Jackson 5. But when Michael and > > > > > > > > his brothers released their first album in 1969, the label had already > > > > > > > > reached its creative peak and most of the best work — the stunning > > > > > > > > originality of the Miracles, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells, Martha and > > > > > > > > the Vandellas, the Supremes, the Temptations, and others — had been > > > > > > > > done. Hip-hop would soon appear, and then the violence and misogyny of > > > > > > > > gangsta rap.
> > > > > > > > All kinds of restraints were coming off. It was almost as if the > > > > > > > > adults had gone into hiding. The deregulation that we were told would > > > > > > > > be great for the economy was being applied to the culture as a whole. > > > > > > > > Women could be treated as sex objects again as misogyny, hardly > > > > > > > > limited to hip-hop, went mainstream. (Have you looked at network > > > > > > > > television lately, or listened to the radio?) Astonishing numbers of > > > > > > > > men abandoned their children with impunity. Most of the nation seemed > > > > > > > > fine with the idea of going to war without a draft and without raising > > > > > > > > taxes.
> > > > > > > > In many ways we descended as a society into a fantasyland, trying to > > > > > > > > leave the limits and consequences and obligations of the real world > > > > > > > > behind. Politicians stopped talking about the poor. We built up > > > > > > > > staggering amounts of debt and called it an economic boom. We shipped > > > > > > > > jobs overseas by the millions without ever thinking seriously about > > > > > > > > how to replace them. We let New Orleans drown.
> > > > > > > > Jackson was the perfect star for the era, the embodiment of fantasy > > > > > > > > gone wild. He tried to carve himself up into another person, but, of > > > > > > > > course, there was the same Michael Jackson underneath — talented but > > > > > > > > psychologically disabled to the point where he was a danger to himself > > > > > > > > and others.
> > > > > > > > Reality is unforgiving. There is no escape. Behind the Jackson facade > > > > > > > > was the horror of child abuse. Court records and reams of well- > > > > > > > > documented media accounts contain a stream of serious allegations of > > > > > > > > child sex abuse and other inappropriate behavior with very young boys. > > > > > > > > Jackson, a multimillionaire megastar, was excused as an eccentric. > > > > > > > > Small children were delivered into his company, to spend the night in > > > > > > > > his bed, often by their parents.
> > > > > > > > One case of alleged pedophilia against Jackson, the details of which > > > > > > > > would make your hair stand on end, was settled for a reported $25 > > > > > > > > million. He beat another case in court.
> > > > > > > > The Michael-mania that has erupted since Jackson’s death — not just an > > > > > > > > appreciation of his music, but a giddy celebration of his life — is > > > > > > > > yet another spasm of the culture opting for fantasy over reality. We > > > > > > > > don’t want to look under the rock that was Jackson’s real life.
> > > > > > > > As with so many other things, we don’t want to know.
> > > > > > > That's the best article on Jackson I've read since his death. I'm > > > > > > > incredibly bored with puff pieces, claims about Jacko's supposed > > > > > > > "musical genius," and with credulous idiots who buy his "Peter Pan" > > > > > > > facade at face value. Thanks, Fatt!- Hide quoted text -
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > > > > As a Jackson fan, I am saddened by his death, and frankly, I do enjoy > > > > > > the puff pieces. They are comforting at this difficult time. > > > > > > However, I must admit that the aboved op/ed piece struck me as > > > > > > objective, realistic and honest.
> > > > > > MJ was very talented and a wonderful entertainer, but beneath that > > > > > > surgically altered appearance, there was a very dark side. I think he > > > > > > was a tormented, suffering soul.
> > > > > > Herbert's comments about Emmanuel Lewis are both shocking and > > > > > > honest . . . . Jackson seemed to be very entertained by Lewis, > > > > > > treating him "almost as a pet."
> > > > > > I don't claim that Jackson engaged in any sexual impropriety, but > > > > > > there is something very wrong when a grown man does not relate much to > > > > > > other adults and has such a fascination with children.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > > > > > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> > > > > Sorry Fattuchus, but there's nothing objective about that piece. And > > > > > he doesn claim that Michael was a child abuser.- Hide quoted text -
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > > 25 million dollar pay-out, just so he stays out of prison? > > > > Guilty.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > > > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> > > Not good enough reasoning. What about the kid's family, who accepted > > > the pay out?, doesn't it look like that was all they wanted?.- Hide quoted text -
> > > - Show quoted text -
> > You can stick up for him all you want, in my opinon he was a > > pervert that did not care for the safety of his own kids, > > remember him hanging his kid over the balcolny? > > They kid should have been taken away right then and there and him > > being charged with child-endangerment.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> So your opinion is he was a pervert. Well, like you said, that is an > opinion, not an argument. I am interested in the facts. And there > isn't enough evidence to consider him a pervert.
> As for the baby in the balcony, it was reckless, but not as much as > the papers made it seem. It's not like he left the baby alone in the > balcony or something.
Reckless is reckless. Anyone who dangles a baby from a balcony should have their child taken away from them, IMO.
> > > > > > > > > Interesting OP ED in the NY Times:
> > > > > > > > > Op-Ed Columnist > > > > > > > > > Behind the Facade > > > > > > > > > By BOB HERBERT > > > > > > > > > Meeting Michael Jackson in the mid-1980s was one of the creepier > > > > > > > > > experiences of my life. I was an editor at The Daily News and had to > > > > > > > > > present him with an award in a large room with just a handful of > > > > > > > > > onlookers and a photographer at Madison Square Garden.
> > > > > > > > > I wasn’t put off by the fact that Jackson, then in his mid-20s, > > > > > > > > > couldn’t make small talk. Lots of people have trouble with that. There > > > > > > > > > was something about his overall behavior that weirded me out. He > > > > > > > > > seemed, even then, to be a person who was trying with all of his being > > > > > > > > > to step outside of reality and leave it behind.
> > > > > > > > > Emmanuel Lewis, the child star of the hit TV series “Webster,” was > > > > > > > > > with Jackson that evening. The undersized Lewis was probably 13 at the > > > > > > > > > time, but he looked much younger, maybe 7 or 8.
> > > > > > > > > Jackson seemed to relate only to Lewis. He made faces at the tiny boy > > > > > > > > > and giggled as Lewis hopped around and climbed over furniture, much to > > > > > > > > > Jackson’s delight. I remember thinking as I left the Garden that > > > > > > > > > Jackson had treated Lewis almost as a pet.
> > > > > > > > > I’ve never heard any suggestion of anything improper about the > > > > > > > > > relationship between Jackson and Lewis. But what I wish I had thought > > > > > > > > > more about in those long-ago days of Michael-mania was the era of > > > > > > > > > extreme immaturity and grotesque irresponsibility that was already > > > > > > > > > well under way in America. The craziness played out on a shockingly > > > > > > > > > broad front and Jackson’s life, among many others, would prove to be a > > > > > > > > > shining and ultimately tragic example. . . . . . . . . . .
> > > > > > > > > Motown was the label that gave us the Jackson 5. But when Michael and > > > > > > > > > his brothers released their first album in 1969, the label had already > > > > > > > > > reached its creative peak and most of the best work — the stunning > > > > > > > > > originality of the Miracles, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells, Martha and > > > > > > > > > the Vandellas, the Supremes, the Temptations, and others — had been > > > > > > > > > done. Hip-hop would soon appear, and then the violence and misogyny of > > > > > > > > > gangsta rap.
> > > > > > > > > All kinds of restraints were coming off. It was almost as if the > > > > > > > > > adults had gone into hiding. The deregulation that we were told would > > > > > > > > > be great for the economy was being applied to the culture as a whole. > > > > > > > > > Women could be treated as sex objects again as misogyny, hardly > > > > > > > > > limited to hip-hop, went mainstream. (Have you looked at network > > > > > > > > > television lately, or listened to the radio?) Astonishing numbers of > > > > > > > > > men abandoned their children with impunity. Most of the nation seemed > > > > > > > > > fine with the idea of going to war without a draft and without raising > > > > > > > > > taxes.
> > > > > > > > > In many ways we descended as a society into a fantasyland, trying to > > > > > > > > > leave the limits and consequences and obligations of the real world > > > > > > > > > behind. Politicians stopped talking about the poor. We built up > > > > > > > > > staggering amounts of debt and called it an economic boom. We shipped > > > > > > > > > jobs overseas by the millions without ever thinking seriously about > > > > > > > > > how to replace them. We let New Orleans drown.
> > > > > > > > > Jackson was the perfect star for the era, the embodiment of fantasy > > > > > > > > > gone wild. He tried to carve himself up into another person, but, of > > > > > > > > > course, there was the same Michael Jackson underneath — talented but > > > > > > > > > psychologically disabled to the point where he was a danger to himself > > > > > > > > > and others.
> > > > > > > > > Reality is unforgiving. There is no escape. Behind the Jackson facade > > > > > > > > > was the horror of child abuse. Court records and reams of well- > > > > > > > > > documented media accounts contain a stream of serious allegations of > > > > > > > > > child sex abuse and other inappropriate behavior with very young boys. > > > > > > > > > Jackson, a multimillionaire megastar, was excused as an eccentric. > > > > > > > > > Small children were delivered into his company, to spend the night in > > > > > > > > > his bed, often by their parents.
> > > > > > > > > One case of alleged pedophilia against Jackson, the details of which > > > > > > > > > would make your hair stand on end, was settled for a reported $25 > > > > > > > > > million. He beat another case in court.
> > > > > > > > > The Michael-mania that has erupted since Jackson’s death — not just an > > > > > > > > > appreciation of his music, but a giddy celebration of his life — is > > > > > > > > > yet another spasm of the culture opting for fantasy over reality. We > > > > > > > > > don’t want to look under the rock that was Jackson’s real life.
> > > > > > > > > As with so many other things, we don’t want to know.
> > > > > > > > That's the best article on Jackson I've read since his death. I'm > > > > > > > > incredibly bored with puff pieces, claims about Jacko's supposed > > > > > > > > "musical genius," and with credulous idiots who buy his "Peter Pan" > > > > > > > > facade at face value. Thanks, Fatt!- Hide quoted text -
> > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > > > > > As a Jackson fan, I am saddened by his death, and frankly, I do enjoy > > > > > > > the puff pieces. They are comforting at this difficult time. > > > > > > > However, I must admit that the aboved op/ed piece struck me as > > > > > > > objective, realistic and honest.
> > > > > > > MJ was very talented and a wonderful entertainer, but beneath that > > > > > > > surgically altered appearance, there was a very dark side. I think he > > > > > > > was a tormented, suffering soul.
> > > > > > > Herbert's comments about Emmanuel Lewis are both shocking and > > > > > > > honest . . . . Jackson seemed to be very entertained by Lewis, > > > > > > > treating him "almost as a pet."
> > > > > > > I don't claim that Jackson engaged in any sexual impropriety, but > > > > > > > there is something very wrong when a grown man does not relate much to > > > > > > > other adults and has such a fascination with children.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > > > > > > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> > > > > > Sorry Fattuchus, but there's nothing objective about that piece. And > > > > > > he doesn claim that Michael was a child abuser.- Hide quoted text -
> > > > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > > > 25 million dollar pay-out, just so he stays out of prison? > > > > > Guilty.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > > > > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> > > > Not good enough reasoning. What about the kid's family, who accepted > > > > the pay out?, doesn't it look like that was all they wanted?.- Hide quoted text -
> > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > You can stick up for him all you want, in my opinon he was a > > > pervert that did not care for the safety of his own kids, > > > remember him hanging his kid over the balcolny? > > > They kid should have been taken away right then and there and him > > > being charged with child-endangerment.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> > So your opinion is he was a pervert. Well, like you said, that is an > > opinion, not an argument. I am interested in the facts. And there > > isn't enough evidence to consider him a pervert.
> > As for the baby in the balcony, it was reckless, but not as much as > > the papers made it seem. It's not like he left the baby alone in the > > balcony or something.
> Reckless is reckless. Anyone who dangles a baby from a > balcony should have their child taken away from them, > IMO.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> - Mostrar texto de la cita -
I'm not sure what "dangle" means, but he just held him there for a few seconds. There are accidents involving children all the time, children gettnig burned, for example, and that pretty much always involves some kind of reckless behaviour from the parents or whoever had them in their care. I don't see those children being taken away... So I think you're over reacting. Social services (or whatever is called) should have paid him a visit, though. I guess they did.
> > > > > > > > > > Interesting OP ED in the NY Times:
> > > > > > > > > > Op-Ed Columnist > > > > > > > > > > Behind the Facade > > > > > > > > > > By BOB HERBERT > > > > > > > > > > Meeting Michael Jackson in the mid-1980s was one of the creepier > > > > > > > > > > experiences of my life. I was an editor at The Daily News and had to > > > > > > > > > > present him with an award in a large room with just a handful of > > > > > > > > > > onlookers and a photographer at Madison Square Garden.
> > > > > > > > > > I wasn’t put off by the fact that Jackson, then in his mid-20s, > > > > > > > > > > couldn’t make small talk. Lots of people have trouble with that. There > > > > > > > > > > was something about his overall behavior that weirded me out. He > > > > > > > > > > seemed, even then, to be a person who was trying with all of his being > > > > > > > > > > to step outside of reality and leave it behind.
> > > > > > > > > > Emmanuel Lewis, the child star of the hit TV series “Webster,” was > > > > > > > > > > with Jackson that evening. The undersized Lewis was probably 13 at the > > > > > > > > > > time, but he looked much younger, maybe 7 or 8.
> > > > > > > > > > Jackson seemed to relate only to Lewis. He made faces at the tiny boy > > > > > > > > > > and giggled as Lewis hopped around and climbed over furniture, much to > > > > > > > > > > Jackson’s delight. I remember thinking as I left the Garden that > > > > > > > > > > Jackson had treated Lewis almost as a pet.
> > > > > > > > > > I’ve never heard any suggestion of anything improper about the > > > > > > > > > > relationship between Jackson and Lewis. But what I wish I had thought > > > > > > > > > > more about in those long-ago days of Michael-mania was the era of > > > > > > > > > > extreme immaturity and grotesque irresponsibility that was already > > > > > > > > > > well under way in America. The craziness played out on a shockingly > > > > > > > > > > broad front and Jackson’s life, among many others, would prove to be a > > > > > > > > > > shining and ultimately tragic example. . . . . . . . . . .
> > > > > > > > > > Motown was the label that gave us the Jackson 5. But when Michael and > > > > > > > > > > his brothers released their first album in 1969, the label had already > > > > > > > > > > reached its creative peak and most of the best work — the stunning > > > > > > > > > > originality of the Miracles, the Marvelettes, Mary Wells, Martha and > > > > > > > > > > the Vandellas, the Supremes, the Temptations, and others — had been > > > > > > > > > > done. Hip-hop would soon appear, and then the violence and misogyny of > > > > > > > > > > gangsta rap.
> > > > > > > > > > All kinds of restraints were coming off. It was almost as if the > > > > > > > > > > adults had gone into hiding. The deregulation that we were told would > > > > > > > > > > be great for the economy was being applied to the culture as a whole. > > > > > > > > > > Women could be treated as sex objects again as misogyny, hardly > > > > > > > > > > limited to hip-hop, went mainstream. (Have you looked at network > > > > > > > > > > television lately, or listened to the radio?) Astonishing numbers of > > > > > > > > > > men abandoned their children with impunity. Most of the nation seemed > > > > > > > > > > fine with the idea of going to war without a draft and without raising > > > > > > > > > > taxes.
> > > > > > > > > > In many ways we descended as a society into a fantasyland, trying to > > > > > > > > > > leave the limits and consequences and obligations of the real world > > > > > > > > > > behind. Politicians stopped talking about the poor. We built up > > > > > > > > > > staggering amounts of debt and called it an economic boom. We shipped > > > > > > > > > > jobs overseas by the millions without ever thinking seriously about > > > > > > > > > > how to replace them. We let New Orleans drown.
> > > > > > > > > > Jackson was the perfect star for the era, the embodiment of fantasy > > > > > > > > > > gone wild. He tried to carve himself up into another person, but, of > > > > > > > > > > course, there was the same Michael Jackson underneath — talented but > > > > > > > > > > psychologically disabled to the point where he was a danger to himself > > > > > > > > > > and others.
> > > > > > > > > > Reality is unforgiving. There is no escape. Behind the Jackson facade > > > > > > > > > > was the horror of child abuse. Court records and reams of well- > > > > > > > > > > documented media accounts contain a stream of serious allegations of > > > > > > > > > > child sex abuse and other inappropriate behavior with very young boys. > > > > > > > > > > Jackson, a multimillionaire megastar, was excused as an eccentric. > > > > > > > > > > Small children were delivered into his company, to spend the night in > > > > > > > > > > his bed, often by their parents.
> > > > > > > > > > One case of alleged pedophilia against Jackson, the details of which > > > > > > > > > > would make your hair stand on end, was settled for a reported $25 > > > > > > > > > > million. He beat another case in court.
> > > > > > > > > > The Michael-mania that has erupted since Jackson’s death — not just an > > > > > > > > > > appreciation of his music, but a giddy celebration of his life — is > > > > > > > > > > yet another spasm of the culture opting for fantasy over reality. We > > > > > > > > > > don’t want to look under the rock that was Jackson’s real life.
> > > > > > > > > > As with so many other things, we don’t want to know.
> > > > > > > > > That's the best article on Jackson I've read since his death. I'm > > > > > > > > > incredibly bored with puff pieces, claims about Jacko's supposed > > > > > > > > > "musical genius," and with credulous idiots who buy his "Peter Pan" > > > > > > > > > facade at face value. Thanks, Fatt!- Hide quoted text -
> > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > > > > > > As a Jackson fan, I am saddened by his death, and frankly, I do enjoy > > > > > > > > the puff pieces. They are comforting at this difficult time. > > > > > > > > However, I must admit that the aboved op/ed piece struck me as > > > > > > > > objective, realistic and honest.
> > > > > > > > MJ was very talented and a wonderful entertainer, but beneath that > > > > > > > > surgically altered appearance, there was a very dark side. I think he > > > > > > > > was a tormented, suffering soul.
> > > > > > > > Herbert's comments about Emmanuel Lewis are both shocking and > > > > > > > > honest . . . . Jackson seemed to be very entertained by Lewis, > > > > > > > > treating him "almost as a pet."
> > > > > > > > I don't claim that Jackson engaged in any sexual impropriety, but > > > > > > > > there is something very wrong when a grown man does not relate much to > > > > > > > > other adults and has such a fascination with children.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > > > > > > > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> > > > > > > Sorry Fattuchus, but there's nothing objective about that piece. And > > > > > > > he doesn claim that Michael was a child abuser.- Hide quoted text -
> > > > > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > > > > 25 million dollar pay-out, just so he stays out of prison? > > > > > > Guilty.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > > > > > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> > > > > Not good enough reasoning. What about the kid's family, who accepted > > > > > the pay out?, doesn't it look like that was all they wanted?.- Hide quoted text -
> > > > > - Show quoted text -
> > > > You can stick up for him all you want, in my opinon he was a > > > > pervert that did not care for the safety of his own kids, > > > > remember him hanging his kid over the balcolny? > > > > They kid should have been taken away right then and there and him > > > > being charged with child-endangerment.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > > > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> > > So your opinion is he was a pervert. Well, like you said, that is an > > > opinion, not an argument. I am interested in the facts. And there > > > isn't enough evidence to consider him a pervert.
> > > As for the baby in the balcony, it was reckless, but not as much as > > > the papers made it seem. It's not like he left the baby alone in the > > > balcony or something.
> > Reckless is reckless. Anyone who dangles a baby from a > > balcony should have their child taken away from them, > > IMO.- Ocultar texto de la cita -
> > - Mostrar texto de la cita -
> I'm not sure what "dangle" means, but he just held him there for a few > seconds. There are accidents involving children all the time, > children gettnig burned, for example, and that pretty much always > involves some kind of reckless behaviour from the parents or whoever > had them in their care. I don't see those children being taken > away... So I think you're over reacting. Social services (or > whatever is called) should have paid him a visit, though. I guess > they did.
I don't think I'm over reacting, and plenty of people took that very seriously. Somebody could have came up from behind him..and bumped him, or he could have gotten distracted and dropped the baby, etc. If he did that to my
...
|
