After the big success of the Crawl poll in August (the results can be downloaded at http://crawl.akrasiac.org/poll_results.txt) and in loose cooperation with the Crawl developers responsible for that poll, we present you the "NetHack Poll 2009".
The intention of this poll is to gather some information about NetHack players, both currently active and past players.
This poll will run through the month of November. Afterwards the results will be released to the public.
Please spread the word about this poll to other NetHack playing people you know.
You can either directly reply to this mail and send it to nethackp...@gmail.com
1. What is your age and gender? 2. Which country do you live in? 3. Do you play locally, on a server or both? 4. Do you play Tiles or ASCII or both? 5. On which Operating Systems or Devices do you play NetHack? 6. Where did you get your copy of NetHack from? 7. Do you play a patched NetHack or variants of NetHack? 8. Which Roguelikes have you played before? (Crawl, ADOM, Angband, etc.) 9. Where did you learn about NetHack? 10. And when? 11. How often did you win NetHack? (If never, you may specify your best game.) 12. To what extent do you use spoiler for playing NetHack? 13. If you no longer play NetHack regularly, why and when did you quit? 14. If you take part in the NetHack DevNull tournament: where did you hear about it? 15. Did you ever recommend NetHack to someone? 16. Which computer game other than NetHack did you play most in the last three months (August, September, October)? 17. Please specify a valid e-mail address if you would like to receive the results of this poll.
Many thanks, Patric Mueller (lead developer of NetHack-De and UnNetHack)
Note: Your e-mail address will not be shared with any third parties. After the poll is closed and the final results have been published all replies will be deleted.
In article <hd07u3$dc...@svr7.m-online.net>, janis_papanag...@hotmail.com says...
> Patric Mueller wrote:
> > The intention of this poll is to gather some information about NetHack > > players, both currently active and past players.
> And what is the intention of gathering that information?
Just reading the Crawl one was damn interesting. I especially found the part about language and the number of players in the US interesting. I knew Finland would be high up and sometimes I contribute the high general knowledge of mythic stuff & all in Finland to nethack playing. Preposterous, I know :D
Eskimo
-- //------------------------------ //Remove tämä all the way to and including soomee to mail directly. //Ascended:W,V (genopolywish),P(ill ath), T,K,H,S,B,C,P,W (naked),Ro,Ra,A,W,almost pacifist A //In progress:PAIN
>> The intention of this poll is to gather some information about NetHack >> players, both currently active and past players.
> And what is the intention of gathering that information?
> Janis
The Department of Yendorian Security has noted that you asked that question and will contact you with more information at a time and location yet to be determined, possibly involving a dark alley.
>> The intention of this poll is to gather some information about NetHack >> players, both currently active and past players.
> And what is the intention of gathering that information?
The usual. Making pretty pictures from the data, being able to better focus the commercials to the target group, having hard data to scientifically disprove Ido's poll from last month. ;-)
As a game developer it's important to know what the player base you're developing on looks like.
Have you looked at the results from the Crawl poll? David Ploog offered to share the code they used to evaluate their poll so we'd see similar results and might be able to somewhat compare Crawl's community with NetHack's.
The spoiler question came directly from Derek, to maybe get an idea if NetHack player in general are spoiled, prefer to be spoiled or would rather not use them. This question is rather vague but we didn't come up with something better. I have no doubt that rgrn regulars are spoiled and are using them extensively but I don't know they would prefer if they didn't have to.
I am rather interested about the reasons people quit playing NetHack (this directly transfers into suggestions how to make your variant better) and if there's still a influx of new players to NetHack or do all new player got to Crawl and stay there (okay, we won't see those but there have already some people answered who play Crawl before coming to NetHack)?
> In article <hd00j0$s...@news.stanford.edu>, bh...@bigfoot.com says... >> 13. If you no longer play NetHack regularly, why and when did you >> quit?
> This question seems a bit pointless, since those who have left Nethack > would be less likely to take the time to fill in a survey about it.
Not necessarily. There is a difference between "left" and "no longer play regularly", and I know many players who have migrated to Crawl, but still hang around in #nethack on freenode.
Even "inactive" players such as the above can provide useful information, as there _are_ two active variants right now. Identifying what people dislike and/or find frustrating about vanilla can help us target future changes.
-- Derek
Game info and change log: http://sporkhack.com Beta Server: telnet://sporkhack.com IRC: irc.freenode.net, #sporkhack
robin wrote: > Janis Papanagnou wrote: >> Patric Mueller wrote: >>> The intention of this poll is to gather some information about NetHack >>> players, both currently active and past players. >> And what is the intention of gathering that information?
> The Department of Yendorian Security has noted that you asked that > question and will contact you with more information at a time and > location yet to be determined, possibly involving a dark alley.
LOL :-) Great!
And I suppose they'll ask me a single question, then; "DYWYPI?" ;-)
Patric Mueller wrote: > Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Patric Mueller wrote: >>> The intention of this poll is to gather some information about NetHack >>> players, both currently active and past players. >> And what is the intention of gathering that information?
> The usual. Making pretty pictures from the data, being able to better > focus the commercials to the target group, having hard data to > scientifically disprove Ido's poll from last month. ;-)
Ah, okay :-)
> As a game developer it's important to know what the player base you're > developing on looks like.
Umm, wouldn't it then be better to ask "What type of keyboard do you use?" - instead of "Which country do you live in?" - which has some relevance in user interface, easy accessibility of commands, etc. (Just a thought.)
> Have you looked at the results from the Crawl poll?
Yes, I've inspected those results, and the first question that popped up in my head was; "how could ~250 people be a significant statistical base to draw sufficiently accurate conclutions". Nevermind! (Hope you get a more extensive feedback with your poll.)
> [...]
> I am rather interested about the reasons people quit playing NetHack > (this directly transfers into suggestions how to make your variant > better)
I fear you wouldn't necessarily be able to "make it better" by a terse response, likely just different. To enhance an already very good game you'd certainly need more detailed experience and responses. But if you think the responses will help in improvement, that's fine, of course.
> and if there's still a influx of new players to NetHack or do > all new player got to Crawl and stay there (okay, we won't see those but there > have already some people answered who play Crawl before coming to > NetHack)?
On Fri, 6 Nov 2009, Janis Papanagnou wrote: > Patric Mueller wrote: >> Have you looked at the results from the Crawl poll?
> Yes, I've inspected those results, and the first question that popped > up in my head was; "how could ~250 people be a significant statistical > base to draw sufficiently accurate conclutions".
Interesting to see how easy it is to dismiss the work of others. Well done, Janis!
> Nevermind! (Hope you get a more extensive feedback with your poll.)
I have seen statistics carried out with a sample size of 5. I don't understand why 250 would be something to sneeze at.
In case you are resistant to humour: the "scientifically accurate" is not meant serious. But the 250 is definitely not the problem there, rather lack of time and expertise.
David Ploog wrote: > On Fri, 6 Nov 2009, Janis Papanagnou wrote: >> Patric Mueller wrote:
>>> Have you looked at the results from the Crawl poll?
>> Yes, I've inspected those results, and the first question that popped >> up in my head was; "how could ~250 people be a significant statistical >> base to draw sufficiently accurate conclutions".
> Interesting to see how easy it is to dismiss the work of others. Well > done, Janis!
That was simple, given that there's only that small sample set. ;-)
No, seriously; you certainly notice yourself how significant the numbers are if one says 1 out of 250 has/makes/does this-or-that. It's not only the "250" but also the correlated problem that you partition that small sample set in sets of even smaller numbers!
[BTW; the visible effect of those small sample sizes had been often apparent in vigorous discussions here. In NH it leads to differences between games that a few people here even neglect from time to time.]
To give you just an example of magnitude; we used numbers in the (small) partitioned sets of magnitude 100-200, requiring partly immense sample sizes, depending on the application context.
That said; Nethack is not scientific evaluation, so just accept what I said ("the first question that popped up in my head was") as it was written, no more, no less. We can discuss relevance, in case conclusions will be drawn, later. Not that it matters.
>> Nevermind! (Hope you get a more extensive feedback with your poll.)
> I have seen statistics carried out with a sample size of 5. I don't > understand why 250 would be something to sneeze at.
Well, the difference in perception is probably that I've actually done scientific statistical evaluations and think to know at least _a bit_ about what I am talking. Not that it matters much WRT the game of Crawl or NH, I admit, but that thought is obvious if you've done statistics.
Don't get me wrong; there's no problem in collecting data to get some insights. Drawing appropriate and sufficiently valid conclusions is a completely different thing, though.
Your 5 samples must be apparently a joke. Even official (e.g. political) polls hereabouts collect in some cases just 1000 samples; so any private poll must not feel bad compared to those official folks that occasionally do a much worse job, justified by a terse timeline, etc.
But, again, we're talking about a game.
> In case you are resistant to humour: the "scientifically accurate" is > not meant serious.
(Not sure what you mean here. I haven't seen "scientifically accurate" been mentioned by the other poster(s). Wasn't I the one saying something WRT "significance"? Anyway. If your reply was meant humorous then I've definitely spent too much time and bandwidth in responding ;-)
> But the 250 is definitely not the problem there,
>> Umm, wouldn't it then be better to ask "What type of keyboard do you >> use?" - instead of "Which country do you live in?" - which has some >> relevance in user interface, easy accessibility of commands, etc.
> Maybe also "hjklyunb or numpad"..
I cannot see how either of these are significant, though the latter may be more so just for tourist-information (much like "which country do you live in?" is, really).
I do not plan to make any major changes to the keyboard layout; I can't think, offhand, of a better way to discourage Nethack players from trying Spork than forcing them to relearn an entire new system of keystrokes that I arbitrarily decided was "better".
-- Derek
Game info and change log: http://sporkhack.com Beta Server: telnet://sporkhack.com IRC: irc.freenode.net, #sporkhack
Quoting Jukka Lahtinen <jtfjd...@hotmail.com.invalid>:
>Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com> writes: >>Umm, wouldn't it then be better to ask "What type of keyboard do you >>use?" - instead of "Which country do you live in?" - which has some >>relevance in user interface, easy accessibility of commands, etc. >Maybe also "hjklyunb or numpad"..
People who use numpad shouldn't admit to it in polite company. :-)
I think country certainly has some interest. I've always been curious about the large supply of Finns in NetHack circles. -- David Damerell <damer...@chiark.greenend.org.uk> Clown shoes. I hope that doesn't bother you.
1. What is your age and gender? 38, male 2. Which country do you live in? USA 3. Do you play locally, on a server or both? locally 4. Do you play Tiles or ASCII or both? ASCII only 5. On which Operating Systems or Devices do you play NetHack? Win2k elderly Dell laptop 6. Where did you get your copy of NetHack from? Compiled it myself 7. Do you play a patched NetHack or variants of NetHack? I play my own heavily patched version of NetHack, see http://sarnath.heptapod.org/binary.rar 8. Which Roguelikes have you played before? (Crawl, ADOM, Angband, etc.) Dungeon Crawl Stone Soup, some SlashEM but didn't like it, not a fan of Spork, have UnNetHack but mostly unplayed 9. Where did you learn about NetHack? USENET many moons ago and Slashdot 10. And when? 1998? I don't remember 11. How often did you win NetHack? (If never, you may specify your best game.) Once, October 2005. Samurai. 12. To what extent do you use spoiler for playing NetHack? I'm thoroughly spoiled 13. If you no longer play NetHack regularly, why and when did you quit? I go through phases, sometimes I play a bunch of games at once and other times I'll be arsed to play NetHack at all. 14. If you take part in the NetHack DevNull tournament: where did you hear about it? I don't participate with DevNull. I'm not good enough. 15. Did you ever recommend NetHack to someone? Yes but nobody's interested unless it has hyperaccellerated polychorons and rich, multilayered symphonic sound incorporating online real-time PvP and trading crap on ebay. 16. Which computer game other than NetHack did you play most in the last three months (August, September, October)? Borderlands on the Xbawks 360 17. Please specify a valid e-mail address if you would like to receive the results of this poll. seven footed at 7th letter of the english alphabet mail dot com, see the headers of this post
David Damerell wrote: > Quoting Jukka Lahtinen <jtfjd...@hotmail.com.invalid>: >>Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com> writes: >>>Umm, wouldn't it then be better to ask "What type of keyboard do you >>>use?" - instead of "Which country do you live in?" - which has some >>>relevance in user interface, easy accessibility of commands, etc. >>Maybe also "hjklyunb or numpad"..
> People who use numpad shouldn't admit to it in polite company. :-)
Heh. So, because you're not being polite, it's entirely okay that I tell you I use the numpad? Okay, whatever.
Seriously: I want all those letter keys for other commands, and arrows don't do diagonal movement. Hence, numberpad.
On Fri, 6 Nov 2009, Derek Ray wrote: > On 2009-11-06, Jukka Lahtinen <jtfjd...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote: >> Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanag...@hotmail.com> writes:
>>> Umm, wouldn't it then be better to ask "What type of keyboard do you >>> use?" - instead of "Which country do you live in?" - which has some >>> relevance in user interface, easy accessibility of commands, etc.
>> Maybe also "hjklyunb or numpad"..
> I cannot see how either of these are significant
Agree that this is largely irrelevant. Much less important than tiles vs ASCII or server vs local anyway.
> though the latter may be more so just for tourist-information (much like > "which country do you live in?" is, really).
Not tourist information. Knowing where the game is (not) played is quite interesting as a developer. The language question is one reason; another is the absence of participants from Asia. Crawl is played there, so for the next poll (think 2015, not 2010), we'll try to reach them, too.
This is similar to our question about other games. This is not just idle curiosity. We are interested in this: Are roguelikes played because or despite they are free?
> After the big success of the Crawl poll in August (the results can be > downloaded at http://crawl.akrasiac.org/poll_results.txt) and in loose > cooperation with the Crawl developers responsible for that poll, we > present you the "NetHack Poll 2009".
On Fri, 6 Nov 2009 10:19:00 -0000, Xmas <m...@privacy.net> wrote: >In article <hd00j0$s...@news.stanford.edu>, bh...@bigfoot.com says... >> 13. If you no longer play NetHack regularly, why and when did you >> quit?
>This question seems a bit pointless, since those who have left Nethack >would be less likely to take the time to fill in a survey about it.
David Ploog wrote: > This is similar to our question about other games. This is not just idle > curiosity. We are interested in this: Are roguelikes played because or > despite they are free?
The "Shiren the wanderer" series of roguelike games is quite popular, if not quite mainstream, in Japan, and it's a commercial product.
Although they preserve the idea of permanent death, they have made some concessions to being commercial and having mainstream gamers expect to win with just a few weeks of effort. So you get inheritances. Characters after the first one don't really start from nothing the way they do in western roguelikes. They start by inheriting whatever the previous character set aside for them, which can make them effectively a first-level character with a 20th-level kit.
Thus, each game played can make subsequent games easier. Another way to look at it is that the unit of the game is a succession or clan rather than a lone adventurer.
Nethack went a bit this way too; Bones files make the game a lot easier. But the Shiren games are even more extreme, because you get your inheritance right from the start and you don't have to uncurse it.
On Nov 5, 9:10 pm, Patric Mueller <bh...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> After the big success of the Crawl poll in August (the results can be > downloaded athttp://crawl.akrasiac.org/poll_results.txt) and in loose > cooperation with the Crawl developers responsible for that poll, we > present you the "NetHack Poll 2009".
While reading the comments in this thread, and after having taken the online poll, I realized that you might think that "when did you learn about nethack" (question #10) has some relation to when the respondent started *playing* nethack. In my case it didn't; I first heard about nethack in college (around 1996-97) in connection with the Luggage from Terry Pratchett's Discworld books (and that's what I put in the poll), said "huh, whatever", and promptly forgot about it. I actually started *playing* nethack in 2006; I no longer recall exactly but I think the trigger was stumbling across the Dudley's Dungeon webcomic. Dunno if that's relevant to what you guys hope to find out.
Patric Mueller <bh...@bigfoot.com> wrote: > 1. What is your age and gender?
39M
> 2. Which country do you live in?
The Netherlands
> 3. Do you play locally, on a server or both?
Locally
> 4. Do you play Tiles or ASCII or both?
ASCII
> 5. On which Operating Systems or Devices do you play NetHack?
WinXP. Used to play on a Psion Revo, but alas, its power supply died.
> 6. Where did you get your copy of NetHack from?
The official site.
> 7. Do you play a patched NetHack or variants of NetHack?
Nope.
> 8. Which Roguelikes have you played before? (Crawl, ADOM, Angband, > etc.)
Rogue, which is too hardcore for me to play it a lot; Angband and Moria, which I didn't find very gripping; either Crawl or ADOM, I've forgotten which, but it's the one with the two dozen or so gods, which I found too inimical; and some silly derivatives set in, e.g., high-tech environments, just for the fun of it.
> 9. Where did you learn about NetHack? > 10. And when?
Don't remember, but I'd say a dozen years ago or so.
> 11. How often did you win NetHack? (If never, you may specify your > best game.)
Often enough not to be bothered to count any more. Well into the double figures, probably not into the triples.
> 12. To what extent do you use spoiler for playing NetHack?
Regularly, although the need to use them decreases (obviously) with experience.
> 13. If you no longer play NetHack regularly, why and when did you > quit?
I play on and off. Sometimes I go months entertaining myself using other means, and then I start up a game of NetHack for a change and off we go. In fact, I've just started playing again (and dropped the chess, for some reason which isn't clear even to me).
> 14. If you take part in the NetHack DevNull tournament:
No.
> 15. Did you ever recommend NetHack to someone?
Yup. Didn't work.
> 16. Which computer game other than NetHack did you play most in the > last three months (August, September, October)?
Interactive fiction. Specifically, the annual IF Comp.
> 17. Please specify a valid e-mail address if you would like to receive > the results of this poll.
David Ploog <pl...@mi.fu-berlin.de> wrote: > This is similar to our question about other games. This is not just idle > curiosity. We are interested in this: Are roguelikes played because or > despite they are free?
In my case, definitely because, but not only because.
More precisely: I _started_ playing NetHack because it was a. recommended by a source I do not recollect right now, and b. free. I am _still_ playing NetHack because, crucially, it is also c. very good.
When faced with a non-free game, of any ilk, I consider whether I want to spend my money on this game or would rather play chess, read a good book, or buy some lamb mince (yum, koftas!) instead. I can't recall when I last came across a game that convinced me to take the first option; it is certainly a long time ago. The last computer game I did buy was a gift, so it doesn't count. When, by contrast, I can get a free game, I often download it, give it a go or two, and then throw it away for being an amateurish attempt. But hey, at least it was free, and once in a while you find a NetHack in the dungheap.
On Nov 6, 3:10 am, Patric Mueller <bh...@bigfoot.com> wrote:
> After the big success of the Crawl poll in August (the results can be > downloaded athttp://crawl.akrasiac.org/poll_results.txt) and in loose > cooperation with the Crawl developers responsible for that poll, we > present you the "NetHack Poll 2009".
> The intention of this poll is to gather some information about NetHack > players, both currently active and past players.
That's all very well, but the way your questions are phrased strongly hints against past players being invited to take part. You might want to emphasize that point some more, so people don't stop reading before question 13. I'm pointing this out because at the IRDC you said that you're particularly interested in reasons for players giving up on the game, and I think you might have trouble getting that out of the survey as it currently is. Otherwise, very cool, and I can't wait to see the results.
I'll send you my own replies sometime later today or within the next couple of days.
|
