No prizes, but a table full of deep stacks (200+bb) online, even that donk Will has to concede that this is deep stack territory. And this one went to the felt. Based on the action, and the description of the players, could anyone say what thy both had, and who won the hand?
Full Tilt Poker Game #57xx06162: Table Wild Wave (6 max) - $5/$10 - No Limit Hold'em - 17:26:38 ET - 2008/03/26 Seat 1: xxx ($190) Seat 2: Donk 1($2,014.65) Plays a lot of flops cheap when in position, easy folder normally, if not at flop then to a 2nd bullet at turn. Known to make the odd big moves. Seat 3: xxx ($1,015) Seat 4: Donk 2 ($2,071.65) Tight, predictable and not that creative with his starting hands. Play mostly premium hands and PP, but rarely raises with his medmium PPs OOP. Had his 3K stack shorten to 2K when his AK ran into AA on a K high flop not that many hands ago. Seat 5: xxx ($2,356) Seat 6: xxx ($2,064) xxxx posts the small blind of $5 Donk 2 posts the big blind of $10 The button is in seat #2 *** HOLE CARDS *** folds folds folds Donk 1 raises to $30 folds donk 2 raises to $95 Donk 1 calls $65 *** FLOP *** [As Js 2d] Donk 2 checks Donk 1 checks *** TURN *** [As Js 2d] [Kh] Donk 2 bets $170 Donk 1 raises to $650 Donk 2 has 15 seconds left to act Donk 2 calls $480 *** RIVER *** [As Js 2d Kh] [3s] Donk 2 checks DONK 1 bets $1,269.65, and is all in Donk 2 calls $1,269.65 *** SHOW DOWN ***
> No prizes, but a table full of deep stacks (200+bb) online, even that donk Will > has to concede that this is deep stack territory. And this one went to the > felt. Based on the action, and the description of the players, could anyone say > what thy both had, and who won the hand?
> Full Tilt Poker Game #57xx06162: Table Wild Wave (6 max) - $5/$10 - No Limit > Hold'em - 17:26:38 ET - 2008/03/26 > Seat 1: xxx ($190) > Seat 2: Donk 1($2,014.65) Plays a lot of flops cheap when in position, easy > folder normally, if not at flop then to a 2nd bullet at turn. Known to make the > odd big moves. > Seat 3: xxx ($1,015) > Seat 4: Donk 2 ($2,071.65) Tight, predictable and not that creative with his > starting hands. Play mostly premium hands and PP, but rarely raises with his > medmium PPs OOP. Had his 3K stack shorten to 2K when his AK ran into AA on a K > high flop not that many hands ago. > Seat 5: xxx ($2,356) > Seat 6: xxx ($2,064) > xxxx posts the small blind of $5 > Donk 2 posts the big blind of $10 > The button is in seat #2 > *** HOLE CARDS *** > folds > folds > folds > Donk 1 raises to $30 > folds > donk 2 raises to $95 > Donk 1 calls $65 > *** FLOP *** [As Js 2d] > Donk 2 checks > Donk 1 checks > *** TURN *** [As Js 2d] [Kh] > Donk 2 bets $170 > Donk 1 raises to $650 > Donk 2 has 15 seconds left to act > Donk 2 calls $480 > *** RIVER *** [As Js 2d Kh] [3s] > Donk 2 checks > DONK 1 bets $1,269.65, and is all in > Donk 2 calls $1,269.65 > *** SHOW DOWN ***
Donk 2 probably has AJ, AA, KK, or very unlikely AK (I think your description of donk2 would bet the flop with AK).
I'm leaning towards KK.
Donk1 could have a much wider range, including AJ-AK, QT, 22, JJ, and weird hands like KsTs/KsQs/or smaller flushes like 9s8s that was trying for a semi-bluff on the turn and got lucky, not to mention a few random stone air hands.
QT makes the most sense, so that's what I'll go with.
Fell -- "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." Winston Churchill
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> No prizes, but a table full of deep stacks (200+bb) online, even that donk Will > has to concede that this is deep stack territory. And this one went to the > felt. Based on the action, and the description of the players, could anyone say > what thy both had, and who won the hand?
The guy who checked his set of AAA or JJJ on the flop lost to your QT that caught the gutshot on the turn for free. Nice hand!
> No prizes, but a table full of deep stacks (200+bb) online, even that donk Will > has to concede that this is deep stack territory. And this one went to the > felt. Based on the action, and the description of the players, could anyone say > what thy both had, and who won the hand?
> Full Tilt Poker Game #57xx06162: Table Wild Wave (6 max) - $5/$10 - No Limit > Hold'em - 17:26:38 ET - 2008/03/26 > Seat 1: xxx ($190) > Seat 2: Donk 1($2,014.65) Plays a lot of flops cheap when in position, easy > folder normally, if not at flop then to a 2nd bullet at turn. Known to make the > odd big moves. > Seat 3: xxx ($1,015) > Seat 4: Donk 2 ($2,071.65) Tight, predictable and not that creative with his > starting hands. Play mostly premium hands and PP, but rarely raises with his > medmium PPs OOP. Had his 3K stack shorten to 2K when his AK ran into AA on a K > high flop not that many hands ago. > Seat 5: xxx ($2,356) > Seat 6: xxx ($2,064) > xxxx posts the small blind of $5 > Donk 2 posts the big blind of $10 > The button is in seat #2 > *** HOLE CARDS *** > folds > folds > folds > Donk 1 raises to $30 > folds > donk 2 raises to $95 > Donk 1 calls $65 > *** FLOP *** [As Js 2d] > Donk 2 checks > Donk 1 checks > *** TURN *** [As Js 2d] [Kh] > Donk 2 bets $170 > Donk 1 raises to $650 > Donk 2 has 15 seconds left to act > Donk 2 calls $480 > *** RIVER *** [As Js 2d Kh] [3s] > Donk 2 checks > DONK 1 bets $1,269.65, and is all in > Donk 2 calls $1,269.65 > *** SHOW DOWN ***
> Donk 2 probably has AJ, AA, KK, or very unlikely AK (I think your > description of donk2 would bet the flop with AK).
> I'm leaning towards KK.
> Donk1 could have a much wider range, including AJ-AK, QT, 22, JJ, and > weird hands like KsTs/KsQs/or smaller flushes like 9s8s that was trying > for a semi-bluff on the turn and got lucky, not to mention a few random > stone air hands.
> QT makes the most sense, so that's what I'll go with.
> Fell > -- > "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." > Winston Churchill
Nice to talk poker without the flames. If we assume Donk 2 had AA or AJ, care to critique his play? http://nickspokerblog.myblog.com/
> Donk 2 probably has AJ, AA, KK, or very unlikely AK (I think your > description of donk2 would bet the flop with AK).
> I'm leaning towards KK.
> Donk1 could have a much wider range, including AJ-AK, QT, 22, JJ, and > weird hands like KsTs/KsQs/or smaller flushes like 9s8s that was trying > for a semi-bluff on the turn and got lucky, not to mention a few random > stone air hands.
> QT makes the most sense, so that's what I'll go with.
> Fell > -- > "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." > Winston Churchill
BTW, I dont think donk 2 having AJ makes any sense in the later actions. AJ is beaten by everything except a bluff, or a very over-played AQ/AT, so I cant see him check-calling the river jam
> > Donk 2 probably has AJ, AA, KK, or very unlikely AK (I think your > > description of donk2 would bet the flop with AK).
> > I'm leaning towards KK.
> > Donk1 could have a much wider range, including AJ-AK, QT, 22, JJ, and > > weird hands like KsTs/KsQs/or smaller flushes like 9s8s that was trying > > for a semi-bluff on the turn and got lucky, not to mention a few random > > stone air hands.
> > QT makes the most sense, so that's what I'll go with.
> > Fell > > -- > > "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." > > Winston Churchill
> Nice to talk poker without the flames. If we assume Donk 2 had AA or AJ, care > to critique his play? > http://nickspokerblog.myblog.com/
I don't go with the AJ because it just doesn't fit the preflop action given your description of him as a tight and unpredictable. I go 90%+ with him having AA. If that is the case I don't particularly like the preflop reraise - it very clearly defines his hand but he's out of position and the stacks are deep so it only works against him. I like his play on the flop even less - it offers a free card that only a fool would turn down and with a flush draw plus 2 broadways there are too many cards that are going to rattle him on the turn. I also think he's kidding himself about how deceptive he thinks his check on the flop actually was given his preflop show of strength.
The turn and river, assuming again that he does have AA, just epitomise how badly wrong things can go for someone who fails to appreciate how vulnerable their monster hand was on a draw heavy flop then can't bear to accept they've been outdrawn despite all the evidence clearly suggesting they have indeed been.
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> > > Donk 2 probably has AJ, AA, KK, or very unlikely AK (I think your > > > description of donk2 would bet the flop with AK).
> > > I'm leaning towards KK.
> > > Donk1 could have a much wider range, including AJ-AK, QT, 22, JJ, and > > > weird hands like KsTs/KsQs/or smaller flushes like 9s8s that was trying > > > for a semi-bluff on the turn and got lucky, not to mention a few random > > > stone air hands.
> > > QT makes the most sense, so that's what I'll go with.
> > > Fell > > > -- > > > "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." > > > Winston Churchill
> > Nice to talk poker without the flames. If we assume Donk 2 had AA or AJ, > care > > to critique his play? > > http://nickspokerblog.myblog.com/
> I don't go with the AJ because it just doesn't fit the preflop action > given your description of him as a tight and unpredictable.
Scratch unpredictable - should have been uncreative.
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> > Donk 2 probably has AJ, AA, KK, or very unlikely AK (I think your > > description of donk2 would bet the flop with AK).
> > I'm leaning towards KK.
> > Donk1 could have a much wider range, including AJ-AK, QT, 22, JJ, and > > weird hands like KsTs/KsQs/or smaller flushes like 9s8s that was trying > > for a semi-bluff on the turn and got lucky, not to mention a few random > > stone air hands.
> > QT makes the most sense, so that's what I'll go with.
> > Fell > > -- > > "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." > > Winston Churchill
> Nice to talk poker without the flames. If we assume Donk 2 had AA or AJ, care > to critique his play?
Yes, with JJ he plays terribly, as he has to put his opponent on a likely ace. BEt the flop, check the turn if called would be a good line with JJ. With AA it is less bad, though against a tricky opponent that might float the flop, I'd pull the same line. You are realistically only giving the gutshot broadway draw a free card, but another spade kills your action as well, with AA it's a case of probably not getting any action anyway, but betting to protect your deep stack from a crippling turn card that you cannot get away from.
Fell -- "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." Winston Churchill
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> > Donk 2 probably has AJ, AA, KK, or very unlikely AK (I think your > > description of donk2 would bet the flop with AK).
> > I'm leaning towards KK.
> > Donk1 could have a much wider range, including AJ-AK, QT, 22, JJ, and > > weird hands like KsTs/KsQs/or smaller flushes like 9s8s that was trying > > for a semi-bluff on the turn and got lucky, not to mention a few random > > stone air hands.
> > QT makes the most sense, so that's what I'll go with.
> > Fell > > -- > > "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." > > Winston Churchill
> BTW, I dont think donk 2 having AJ makes any sense in the later actions. AJ is > beaten by everything except a bluff, or a very over-played AQ/AT, so I cant see > him check-calling the river jam
> > Nice to talk poker without the flames. If we assume Donk 2 had AA or AJ, > care > > to critique his play?
> Yes, with JJ he plays terribly, as he has to put his opponent on a likely > ace. BEt the flop, check the turn if called would be a good line with JJ. > With AA it is less bad, though against a tricky opponent that might float > the flop, I'd pull the same line. You are realistically only giving the > gutshot broadway draw a free card, but another spade kills your action as > well, with AA it's a case of probably not getting any action anyway, but > betting to protect your deep stack from a crippling turn card that you > cannot get away from.
Assuming AA for for one moment, I think he played that really bad, given the stacks. The reraise preflop suggest very straongly AA/KK/AK. It goes with his style/image. Declaring his hand wasnt the really bad play, but not charging enough for that information was. Raising another 65 when it was raised to 30, and being OOP was just too horrible, given that there were 2000 in each stack. You are just asking them to take a crack at your deep stack on the cheap with this raise, after telling them what you have.
On the flop, I disagree that you are only risking giving a free card to the gut draw, you cant really dismiss the flush draw possibilities. If TQ (suited ot not) is possible, why not medimum suited connectors or QK/Kx/Qx suited ? If he can get away from the top set after a dangerous card, checking to induce a bluff might not be so bad, but why give a free card for them to stack your very deep stack when you know you cant get away? You might even get lucky and get action from JJ or 22 by betting.
When that turn K hit, he might possibily be thinking KK hitting 2nd set, but KK in the blinds not repoping a BB reraise when stacks are this deep? Not saying he should have got away, but he shouldn't have left himself in this situation in the first place. If he was thinking semi-bluff, he should have repop and jam the pot. At least he still has 10 outs if he was wrong. If he can get away from at the river when it doesnt pair, calling isnt so bad, but if he's going to the felt anyway, why not put it in here?
The river card also hightlighted his preflop mistake. A lot of the time, a nut straight might not have bet when checked to after the flush card hit, for fear of being trapped. However, by declaring his hand in no uncertainly terms, he left his opponent with an easy push, it was so obvious that he had AA/KK/AK.
The check-call here is also very debatable. Yes, he had top set, but realistically, what was he beating that can jam here? If his opponent was semi-bluffing the flush draw at turn, well, its got there now. Would KK/JJ really would have jammed given this board? Some might, but I think any semi-decent player would take the free show down with a smaller set.
All in all, a horrible way to play aces OOP with very deep stacks. Assuming he had aces, of course. If he did, it would be a prefect example in how not to play aces OOP in deep stack games.
Feel free to comment on anything you disagree with.
> > > Donk 2 probably has AJ, AA, KK, or very unlikely AK (I think your > > > description of donk2 would bet the flop with AK).
> > > I'm leaning towards KK.
> > > Donk1 could have a much wider range, including AJ-AK, QT, 22, JJ, and > > > weird hands like KsTs/KsQs/or smaller flushes like 9s8s that was trying > > > for a semi-bluff on the turn and got lucky, not to mention a few random > > > stone air hands.
> > > QT makes the most sense, so that's what I'll go with.
> > > Fell > > > -- > > > "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." > > > Winston Churchill
> > Nice to talk poker without the flames. If we assume Donk 2 had AA or AJ, > care > > to critique his play? > > http://nickspokerblog.myblog.com/
> I don't go with the AJ because it just doesn't fit the preflop action > given your description of him as a tight and unpredictable. I go 90%+ with > him having AA. If that is the case I don't particularly like the preflop > reraise - it very clearly defines his hand but he's out of position and > the stacks are deep so it only works against him. I like his play on the > flop even less - it offers a free card that only a fool would turn down > and with a flush draw plus 2 broadways there are too many cards that are > going to rattle him on the turn. I also think he's kidding himself about > how deceptive he thinks his check on the flop actually was given his > preflop show of strength.
> The turn and river, assuming again that he does have AA, just epitomise > how badly wrong things can go for someone who fails to appreciate how > vulnerable their monster hand was on a draw heavy flop then can't bear to > accept they've been outdrawn despite all the evidence clearly suggesting > they have indeed been.
BTW, I forgot, if he had aces, the most he'll get is another bet of 1/2 to 3/4 pot, even if his oppoent took the bait and bet out, given that its highly unlikely his opponent having the case ace and therefore cannot call a raise. The pot was about 200, so he's risking his stack of 2K for what, about 100 to 150 bucks?
> No prizes, but a table full of deep stacks (200+bb) online, even that donk > Will > has to concede that this is deep stack territory. And this one went to the > felt. Based on the action, and the description of the players, could anyone > say > what thy both had, and who won the hand?
> Full Tilt Poker Game #57xx06162: Table Wild Wave (6 max) - $5/$10 - No Limit > Hold'em - 17:26:38 ET - 2008/03/26 > Seat 1: xxx ($190) > Seat 2: Donk 1($2,014.65) Plays a lot of flops cheap when in position, easy > folder normally, if not at flop then to a 2nd bullet at turn. Known to make > the > odd big moves. > Seat 3: xxx ($1,015) > Seat 4: Donk 2 ($2,071.65) Tight, predictable and not that creative with his > starting hands. Play mostly premium hands and PP, but rarely raises with his > medmium PPs OOP. Had his 3K stack shorten to 2K when his AK ran into AA on a > K > high flop not that many hands ago. > Seat 5: xxx ($2,356) > Seat 6: xxx ($2,064) > xxxx posts the small blind of $5 > Donk 2 posts the big blind of $10 > The button is in seat #2 > *** HOLE CARDS *** > folds > folds > folds > Donk 1 raises to $30 > folds > donk 2 raises to $95 > Donk 1 calls $65 > *** FLOP *** [As Js 2d] > Donk 2 checks > Donk 1 checks > *** TURN *** [As Js 2d] [Kh] > Donk 2 bets $170 > Donk 1 raises to $650 > Donk 2 has 15 seconds left to act > Donk 2 calls $480 > *** RIVER *** [As Js 2d Kh] [3s] > Donk 2 checks > DONK 1 bets $1,269.65, and is all in > Donk 2 calls $1,269.65 > *** SHOW DOWN ***
> > > Nice to talk poker without the flames. If we assume Donk 2 had AA or AJ, > > care > > > to critique his play?
> > Yes, with JJ he plays terribly, as he has to put his opponent on a likely > > ace. BEt the flop, check the turn if called would be a good line with JJ. > > With AA it is less bad, though against a tricky opponent that might float > > the flop, I'd pull the same line. You are realistically only giving the > > gutshot broadway draw a free card, but another spade kills your action as > > well, with AA it's a case of probably not getting any action anyway, but > > betting to protect your deep stack from a crippling turn card that you > > cannot get away from.
> Assuming AA for for one moment, I think he played that really bad, given the > stacks. The reraise preflop suggest very straongly AA/KK/AK. It goes with his > style/image. Declaring his hand wasnt the really bad play, but not charging > enough for that information was. Raising another 65 when it was raised to 30, > and being OOP was just too horrible, given that there were 2000 in each stack. > You are just asking them to take a crack at your deep stack on the cheap with > this raise, after telling them what you have.
> On the flop, I disagree that you are only risking giving a free card to the gut > draw, you cant really dismiss the flush draw possibilities. If TQ (suited ot > not) is possible, why not medimum suited connectors or QK/Kx/Qx suited ? If he > can get away from the top set after a dangerous card, checking to induce a bluff > might not be so bad, but why give a free card for them to stack your very deep > stack when you know you cant get away? You might even get lucky and get action > from JJ or 22 by betting.
> When that turn K hit, he might possibily be thinking KK hitting 2nd set, but KK > in the blinds not repoping a BB reraise when stacks are this deep? Not saying > he should have got away, but he shouldn't have left himself in this situation in > the first place. If he was thinking semi-bluff, he should have repop and jam > the pot. At least he still has 10 outs if he was wrong. If he can get away > from at the river when it doesnt pair, calling isnt so bad, but if he's going to > the felt anyway, why not put it in here?
> The river card also hightlighted his preflop mistake. A lot of the time, a nut > straight might not have bet when checked to after the flush card hit, for fear > of being trapped. However, by declaring his hand in no uncertainly terms, he > left his opponent with an easy push, it was so obvious that he had AA/KK/AK.
> The check-call here is also very debatable. Yes, he had top set, but > realistically, what was he beating that can jam here? If his opponent was > semi-bluffing the flush draw at turn, well, its got there now. Would KK/JJ > really would have jammed given this board? Some might, but I think any > semi-decent player would take the free show down with a smaller set.
> All in all, a horrible way to play aces OOP with very deep stacks. Assuming he > had aces, of course. If he did, it would be a prefect example in how not to > play aces OOP in deep stack games.
> Feel free to comment on anything you disagree with.
Unfortunately, I can't say that I disagree with anything you wrote. Excellent write-up.
Fell -- "A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject." Winston Churchill
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