I'm trying to find various traditional methods of diamond identification:-
I've read the following. But, so far have not tested their authenticity:- 1. When you place a real diamond on your eyelids it feels cool and does not get warmer soon. While this is not so in case of a ordinary stone. 2. Real diamond does not loose its shine on wearing it. 3. Real diamond is dense, when you take another stone of the same size you will feel the real diamond heavier. 4. The best method, scratch a diamond with something, if a scratch appears easily, it cannot be a diamond.
On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 22:34:52 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Ganesh
<ganesh.growthsoluti...@gmail.com> wrote: >>I'm trying to find various traditional methods of diamond >>identification:-
>>I've read the following. But, so far have not tested their >>authenticity:-
These are great at proving the old adage that you can't believe everything you read.
>>1. When you place a real diamond on your eyelids it feels cool and >>does not get warmer soon. While this is not so in case of a ordinary >>stone.
Diamond is the best heat conductor of any gemstone, equal to the most thermally conductive of the metals, like silver or aluminum. So IF there is a source of cooling, such as decent air flow, AND the diamond starts out cooler than skin, then on contact the diamond will conduct heat away from the skin, thus feeling cooler than a stone (any other) which is more of an insulator. But whether you can actually feel this, even of your delicate eyelids, is a whole other question. I doubt you could detect this with any but a large stone. However, this property of thermal conductivity is the basis for most of the diamond "testers" sold, which are thermal conductivity testers. The heat one end of a copper (?) wire, measure the temperature of that wire near the other end, which is pressed to a stone. If the stone, like diamond or a metal, chills the end of the wire by conducting heat away from it, the probe notes the drop in temperature at it's measurement point. The testers (cheapoer ones, at any rate) can be fooled by only a very few materials, but there ARE a few. While your eyelid test is probably not reliable for most people it IS based on an actual property of diamond.
>>2. Real diamond does not loose its shine on wearing it.
Well, now that's relative. Diamonds are harder than other gems, so don't usually get as scuffed up and worn as other gems. But this takes time, and only is valid in terms of comparing to another gem set piece also worn about the same amount. Diamonds worn with other diamond jewelry CAN get abraded by the other diamonds, and if diamonds get dirty, even though now worn, they definatly can look pretty dingy and not shiney at all.
>>3. Real diamond is dense, when you take another stone of the same size >>you will feel the real diamond heavier.
This is just plain wrong. Diamond is denser than SOME other gems, but less dense than others, such as garnets, or importantly, Cubic zirconia, which is considerably denser than diamond. Accurate testing of any gem's density, or Specific Gravity, is a fine gemological test, and a useful one. But you need more than just quick testing with the hand, especially for anything other than very large gems. And it's no good with set stones. But for loose stones, weighing the gem and comparing the result to what a gem of that weight should measure in dimensions, gives a quick indication. Cubic zirconia, for example, weighs half again what a gem of it's size should weigh if diamond. That's useful. But diamond is not heavier than other gems. In fact, it's lighter than some of it's best imitators. But heavier than many others. So your blanket statement is just plain wrong. The basic concept of weight, or specific gravity, as a means to aid identification of any gem, including diamond, is quite accurate however.
>>4. The best method, scratch a diamond with something, if a scratch >>appears easily, it cannot be a diamond.
Very bad idea. Diamond CAN be scratched, especially by another diamond. And some stones which are not diamonds can still be valuable. Using this test, called a hardness test, is highly discouraged since in trying to do this, you can still do damage to a diamond, and certainly will do damage to any softer stone if you try to scratch it with a diamond. Taking a nice cut stone and accurately finding out that it is not a diamond, by using a method which damages the stone, now means you have to spend money to repolish the other stone if it happens to be something worthwhile. Bad idea. Just don't do it. Not ever. While hardness is indeed a characteristic of diamond, there are now synthetics (boron carbide in particular) which are just as hard or harder. And the test itself, being potentially distructive, is not one you should use, at least not with cut and polished gems.
However, with that said, hardness of diamond is indeed one of it's most unique properties, and it's behind much of what you can simply see with your eye when you examine a diamond. And THAT is by far, the best method to identify a diamond. Simple observation by a knowledgeable person, with a good magnifier is the quickest, and most useful test.
What you see, when carefully observed:
Diamond, because of it's high hardness, and the unique methods and equipment used to facet it, has facets that are flatter, and sharper edged than other stones. Facet edges viewed through the stone are a crisp clear transition from one facet to another, with no "line" in between. That line, the slight rounding over of facet edges seen on softer stones, is sometimes avoided mostly with the best cutting quality of a few other stones, but most of the time, stones other than diamond will show that "line". If it's not there, look for other clues, but if those edges between facets are rounded at all, it's not likely to be a diaond.
Diamond is singly refractive. Viewed through the stone, facets and edges on the far side show no trace of double images or fuzziness caused by double refraction in many other stones. Moissonite, for example, is extremely double refractive, and sapphire is enough so that you see at least a little image doubling. the test does not eliminate singly refractive stones like YAG or other garnets, spinel, glass, or cubic zirconia.
The degree to which diamond is dispersive of white light into it's spectral colors is quite distinctive. Most other gems do it less, such as YAG, glass, sapphire, or many others. Some few simulants do it more, such as Cubic Zirconia, which can be distinctively seperated from diamond by it's considerably higher dispersion.
The way many round diamonds are shaped often leaves them with multiple microscopic tiny fractures at the girdle. Called girdle bearding, it's not always there, but when visible, it's quite diagnostic of diamond. Other gems don't show this. On diamonds where the girdle is facetted or polished, this often is removed, but then you can see the crisp hard edges of the diamond at the girdle, while almost any other gem with a polished girdle will have that polished girdle edge be rounded over a bit.
The nature of the usual inclusions in diamonds are quite distinctive. Not unique to diamond of course, and better quality diamonds may not have inclusions that are distinctive, but the various synthetics, at least, don't have them. And many other stones have types of inclusions that do NOT occur in diamonds
No one single aspect of what you see when looking at a diamond is always diagnostic, but simply examining the stone with a loupe requires only good light, a loupe, and that the stone be reasonably clean. It's quick, can be done to a stone that's still set, and when you combine all the various observations you can simulataneously see, you can almost always arrive at a determination of whether a stone is diamond or not. None of this is new, or high tech. It just requires an educated observer.
If you're still not certain, then the best next step would be to switch from a simple loupe to a microscope if available. Higher magnification will show you more than the loupe. or switch to one of those thermal diamond testers. Good quality ones are accurate, not all that expensive, and seperate all but a very few materials. and those materials which can fool those testers, like moissonite with some of the testers, are easily seperated with the loupe in the first place. Frankly, with a good loupe and practice, (and for added ease in observation, also add to your kit a small penlight flashlight), you will almost never need anything other than the loupe to identify diamond. For other gems though, you'll soon find the need for a bit more equipment, such as a polariscope or refractometer. But even then, a good loupe should always be the first identification tool you use. Often, it's all you need.
Ganesh wrote: > I'm trying to find various traditional methods of diamond > identification:-
> I've read the following. But, so far have not tested their > authenticity:- > 1. When you place a real diamond on your eyelids it feels cool and > does not get warmer soon. While this is not so in case of a ordinary > stone. > 2. Real diamond does not loose its shine on wearing it. > 3. Real diamond is dense, when you take another stone of the same size > you will feel the real diamond heavier. > 4. The best method, scratch a diamond with something, if a scratch > appears easily, it cannot be a diamond.
All interesting stuff, but, '1' needs a big stone, 2 and 3 are just plain wrong and '4' is a really great way to devalue your stock because diamond really does cut diamond...
Diamond has the same refractive index as air.
Look into it and the facet edges at the back are single lines, that's one of the reasons why you carry a loupe.
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
What? William, you're dreaming, or that was a typo. If diamond had the same refractive index as air, you'd hardly see it at all. It would reflect no light and would blend almost perfectly into the air, affecting light almost not at all. Other than inclusions, cloudiness, body color, or dirt on the surface, it would be almost invisible. The refractive index of air is 1. That of diamond is 2.417, quite high among gems, just as some gems appear to almost disappear when immersed in a closely matched refractive index fluid like methylene iodide, (or clear ice into water, compared to ice in air, for example) often used as such to better be able to see into gems without the confusing light reflections. The high refractive index relative to air is why diamond is able to reflect as much light as it does when well cut.
>>Look into it and the facet edges at the back are single lines, that's >>one of the reasons why you carry a loupe.
Yes, but this is not due to just refractive index. rather it's due to the fact that diamond, being in the cubic crystal system, is single refractive, and has ONLY ONE refractive index. Gems crystalizing in other systems have two or three, depending on the direction through the crystal and polarization direction of the light. The result of that is a variable degree of image doubling, as light gets split into two differently polarized beams, each bent slightly differently due to the different refractive indexes of the two polarization directions. Such stones are called birefringent or double refractive. Even then, some care is needed, since such gems, when viewed along the optic axis (uniaxial gems, at least), will not show the facet doubling. Diamond is single refractive, so there is no such facet doubling in any direction. However, it's not the only gem that is so. Any gem in the cubic crystal system, or which isn't crystaline (glass), will also be single refractive. This includes spinel and garnets, and importantly, Cubic Zirconia. With these gems, you also see no "facet doubling" when looking into the gem. And with double refractive gems, cutters often orient the stones so the single refractive optic axis is perpendicular to the table, so you have to look into the gem at an angle to see the facet doubling. This is the case, for example, with moissonite, which is extremely birefringent material, but cutters usually orient the stone so the resulting fuzzy images of the back facets don't occur when viewed face on.
One thing to also note, which is generally different with diamond, is that because of it's hardness, the facet edges are unusually crisp and sharp, so looking into a diamond, the facet edges at the back are not only single lines, but there is almost no line at all. Just a sharp transition between one facet and the next. With softer stones, where the edge is almost always at least a little rounded over by the polishing process, you actually do see a bit of a bright line at the edge itself, since the edge has just a little width which reflects light differently from the two adjoining facets. With harder stones and a better polish, (moissonite, again, is a prime example of this) this can be very subtle, but it's almost always visible if you look, especially with higher magnifications, which might need a microscope.
And there are other visible characteristics too. Girdle bearding, the crisp flat facets, including the girdle if facetted, distinctive inclusions, the look of either cleavage breaks or the splintery fracture surfaces of tiny chips if present, the distinctive look of naturals, trigons, or other such remants of the original crystal, the degree of dispersion relative to other gems, the degree of light return in well cut stones or other visible evidence of the refractive index, and more.
You're correct of course, that a good loupe is the first and most important diamond identification tool.
The electronic diamond testers, thermal probes, as you note, are also a good second line of defense for those not as comfortable just using the loupe or for smaller questionable set stones where you might just not be totally sure. I would suggest that the type of tester designed to specifically not return a positive result with moissonite, which is high enough in thermal conductivity to fool some of the cheaper thermal probes, probably isn't needed. The reason is that moissonite is the only such gem that not only doies resemble diamond but that does fool the other probes, and moissonite is very easy to identify with just the loupe, both due to it's faint greenish body color, and more importantly, it's extremely strong double refraction, which shows facet doubling, as you note above, as strong as any gem out there. As strong as zircons or peridots. Makes them look distinctly fuzzy, sometimes even to the naked eye, when viewed at an angle to the table rather than rights square on to the table.
Peter W. Rowe wrote: > On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 12:00:08 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry William Black > <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Diamond has the same refractive index as air.
> What? William, you're dreaming, or that was a typo. If diamond had the same > refractive index as air, you'd hardly see it at all. It would reflect no light > and would blend almost perfectly into the air, affecting light almost not at > all. Other than inclusions, cloudiness, body color, or dirt on the surface, it > would be almost invisible. The refractive index of air is 1. That of diamond > is 2.417, quite high among gems, just as some gems appear to almost disappear > when immersed in a closely matched refractive index fluid like methylene iodide, > (or clear ice into water, compared to ice in air, for example) often used as > such to better be able to see into gems without the confusing light reflections. > The high refractive index relative to air is why diamond is able to reflect as > much light as it does when well cut.
Ah, I was told on a course once that the reason you only see one facet edge was that it had the same refractive index as air, I stand corrected.
I'm no expert on gemstones, I just know enough not to get caught, mainly by buying only from reputable sources.
Although I made some money over the years buy buying large bags of what everyone thought were imitation pearls at auction...
As an aside...
My wife acquired a diamond pendant recently in India as a gift, and it came with a certificate identifying the source of the diamonds as legitimate.
That's something I certainly haven't yet seen in the UK.
As all the 'blood diamond' stories are busy fading away as law and order comes back to West Africa, and the diamond syndicate moves back in and establishes its monopoly, I somehow doubt we ever will...
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 18:42:01 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry William Black
<william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: >>Although I made some money over the years buy buying large bags of what >>everyone thought were imitation pearls at auction...
And are you certain they were not? Auction houses generally don't make that kind of mistake. You say yourself that you're no expert on gems, and some of the imitation pearl products are quite good. You have to quite well know what you're looking at with some of them...
>>As an aside...
>>My wife acquired a diamond pendant recently in India as a gift, and it >>came with a certificate identifying the source of the diamonds as >>legitimate.
>>That's something I certainly haven't yet seen in the UK.
>>As all the 'blood diamond' stories are busy fading away as law and order >>comes back to West Africa, and the diamond syndicate moves back in and >>establishes its monopoly, I somehow doubt we ever will...
Actually, you probably already do see it and have for a number of years, though not with certificates aimed at customers. The Kimberley process is in essence a paper trail certification procedure, enabling diamond dealers to trace the origins of diamonds, thus ensuring they come from sources that are at least reasonably legitimate, rather than one of the so called "blood diamond" sources. You can rest assured that at the wholesale level, diamond dealers in the UK and E.U. are indeed paying attention to the issue. Whether they bother to tout this to customers is another story, one of simple marketing and convenience. Many customers simply assume their jeweler is buying reputably. That doesn't mean the issue is going away. Some of the bloodiest of the diamond-financed conflicts are somewhat winding down, but not totally, and Africa still has quite it's fair share of conflict and strife, some still financed by diamonds or other gem trades. At the same time, the issue is often not clear cut, since in some of the same regions, the portion of legitimately mined and sold diamonds often contributes a good deal towards the local economies, considerably benefitting, not exploiting, the local populations.
Also, it's perhaps no longer totally accurate to assume the diamond syndicate has a total monopoly. There are large portions of the diamond trade that bypass deBeers these days. They are still the largest player on the block, but increasingly, there are other, paralell routes for diamond distribution, sold by local authorities directly to the cutting industry, or those where diamonds end up being cut locally to their origins. Either way, the diamonds end up distributed directly to the diamond wholesale trade, bypassing the whole contgrol over distribution to the cutters side of things that traditionally was the mainstay of DeBeers control. For most of these channels, however, it is in the interest of whomever is handling the stones, not to undercut the market levels established by DeBeers, so these side channels don't disrupt the DeBeers market plans as much as might otherwise be the case. But the future seems writ that DeBeers won't forever control the market, which is why that company has been moving increasingly towards things like it's own Brand name on the stones it handles, trying to establish a public demand for it's brand over others. Potential future production of synthetic diamonds is another of the pressures that is influencing these trends.
Peter W. Rowe wrote: > On Sat, 26 Sep 2009 18:42:01 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry William Black > <william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: >>>>Although I made some money over the years buy buying large bags of what >>>>everyone thought were imitation pearls at auction...
>>And are you certain they were not? Auction houses generally don't make that >>kind of mistake. You say yourself that you're no expert on gems, and some of >>the imitation pearl products are quite good. You have to quite well know what >>you're looking at with some of them...
Small English provincial auction houses are good at diamonds, other cut stones and hallmarks but, as a general rule, if they get a big bag of old pearls in from an estate they just test a couple. If they're real they dig further but if they're not then they just put the bag in the display case and flog it.
English provincial auction houses are a real gold mine if you know about stuff they don't.
They're terrific on paintings, china, furniture and gold.
Less good on musical instruments, sculpture, scientific instruments and tools.
As a general rule what they're selling is what's left over after someone dies.
But I didn't really care, I got about 20 strings for ?330 plus commission (about ?335 altogether) so I was going to make money whatever ...
>>>>As an aside...
>>>>My wife acquired a diamond pendant recently in India as a gift, and it >>>>came with a certificate identifying the source of the diamonds as >>>>legitimate.
>>>>That's something I certainly haven't yet seen in the UK.
>>>>As all the 'blood diamond' stories are busy fading away as law and order >>>>comes back to West Africa, and the diamond syndicate moves back in and >>>>establishes its monopoly, I somehow doubt we ever will...
>>Actually, you probably already do see it and have for a number of years, though >>not with certificates aimed at customers.
I'm aware that there's a paper trail in the UK, but it doesn't even get down to the retailer here, never mind a certificate in the base of the case...
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of=20 Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat=20 single handed with a quarterstaff.
On Sun, 27 Sep 2009 11:54:05 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry William Black
<william.bl...@hotmail.co.uk> wrote: >>I'm aware that there's a paper trail in the UK, but it doesn't even get >>down to the retailer here, never mind a certificate in the base of the >>case...
It isn't really intended to. The retailer can ask whether their dealers adhere to the Kimberly protocol, but I'm under the impression that it's actually a governmentally decided issue, where nations agree to abide by it, and then dealers operating in that nation are bound to follow those rules. At least that's how I understand it. In essence, the custom's office would be the one checking that incoming stones are properly documented. I might be wrong on this, but that's my understanding.
The whole thing with certificates in the showcase for customers is a pure marketing decision by the retailer who no doubt thinks the notice will improve sales.
To a degree, the presence or lack of such notices reflects on the public's confidence in the quality of their jeweler's wares. In the UK, I doubt you'd often see notices in the showcase next to the gold jewelry guaranteeing that the items are up to standard, since the laws and processes there for hallmarking are so traditional and strong that the average consumer already trusts it. A notice to that effect would elicit a response of "of course", rather than "oh, now I feel reassured, trust it more, and am more likely to buy...". With that background of general trust in the jewelery's quality enjoyed in the UK, similar notices of legitimacy of diamond sourcing might simply not be worth the trouble. Does that sound about right?
Peter W. Rowe wrote: > To a degree, the presence or lack of such notices reflects on the public's > confidence in the quality of their jeweler's wares. In the UK, I doubt you'd > often see notices in the showcase next to the gold jewelry guaranteeing that the > items are up to standard, since the laws and processes there for hallmarking are > so traditional and strong that the average consumer already trusts it. A notice > to that effect would elicit a response of "of course", rather than "oh, now I > feel reassured, trust it more, and am more likely to buy...". With that > background of general trust in the jewelery's quality enjoyed in the UK, similar > notices of legitimacy of diamond sourcing might simply not be worth the trouble. > Does that sound about right?
It does to me.
Oh, there's a legal requirement to display what's know as a 'Hallmark display card' if you sell hallmarked products.
You have to buy an official one, you can't just get a photocopy and hang it in your shop...
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
Ganesh wrote: > I'm trying to find various traditional methods of diamond > identification:-
- A 10 power, aplanatic and achromatic loupe, and a pair of tweezers. That's really all you need for traditional diamond identification. If you want to be more accurate you could add:
> I've read the following. But, so far have not tested their > authenticity:-
"So far"? So you plan to "test their authenticity" any time soon? Please let us know the results of your research.
> 1. When you place a real diamond on your eyelids it feels cool and > does not get warmer soon. While this is not so in case of a ordinary > stone.
Bullshit! Although come to think of it, the last time I was on West 47th Street in New York, I did see dozens of orthodox Jews walking around with their heads cocked back, and with what seemed like diamonds balancing around on their eyes. While they were doing this, they constantly bumped into each other and walked into walls, thereby dropping the stones on the ground. I thought it was some religious ritual. Thanks for clearing that up for me.
> 2. Real diamond does not loose its shine on wearing it.
Bullshit!
> 3. Real diamond is dense, when you take another stone of the same size > you will feel the real diamond heavier.
Bullshit! "feel" [the weight of] the real diamond? You can "feel" a couple of carats, i.e 400 milligrams? And you have hundreds if not thousands of "stones of the same size" as any diamond in question lying around to make the required comparisons?
And for your information, the following diamond simulants all have higher specific gravities than diamond: sapphire (this includes white sapphire) 3.96 - 4.25 spinel (this includes white spinel) 3.58 - 4.06 zircon 4.60 - 4.70 diamond 3.52
> 4. The best method, scratch a diamond with something, if a scratch > appears easily, it cannot be a diamond.
Very smart to do, ... NOT. If you use this method, you have proven that you are capable of damaging and possibly destroying a possibly valuable precious stone.
In closing I would like to say, that I am beginning to grow tired of your inane postings.
On Sep 26, 10:34 am, Ganesh <ganesh.growthsoluti...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 4. The best method, scratch a diamond with something, if a scratch > appears easily, it cannot be a diamond.
In the text I read, there's talk about scratching diamond with Ruby. It is said "even a Ruby cannot scratch a diamond". There should be no problem trying that. There's no harm doing that with an uncut diamond. And the Ruby in use can be a Non jewel ruby, a piece meant for testing purpose. This is just a thought, I am not an expert in this subject. So, one should rather go with comments from people like "Peter W. Rowe" and others on this.
>>>>I'm trying to find various traditional methods of diamond >>>>identification:-
>>>>I've read the following. But, so far have not tested their >>>>authenticity:-
>>These are great at proving the old adage that you can't believe everything you >>read.
{snip]
>>>>4. The best method, scratch a diamond with something, if a scratch >>>>appears easily, it cannot be a diamond.
>>Very bad idea. Diamond CAN be scratched, especially by another diamond.
. That's true. Yes it could be a very bad idea. But, which other transparent white gemstone does one need to often test for being a diamond? Possible this test was introduced to test fake transparent white stone being sold as diamonds. These tests were proposed when advanced instruments were not available. Some of these can be still handy for initial assessment.
On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 03:09:03 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Ganesh
<ganeshjacha...@gmail.com> wrote: >>>>Very bad idea. Diamond CAN be scratched, especially by another diamond. >>. >>That's true. Yes it could be a very bad idea. But, which other >>transparent white gemstone does one need to often test for being a >>diamond? Possible this test was introduced to test fake transparent >>white stone being sold as diamonds. These tests were proposed when >>advanced instruments were not available. Some of these can be still >>handy for initial assessment.
Hardness tests do indeed have their place, but generally it's in mineralogy, not gemology. Usually standard ONLY with rough material, not cut, nor highly valuable material. Part of the problem is that attempting to scratch a stone with a hardness testing point, or another stone, is that you can be "testing" several characteristics, not just hardnessl. And while diamond is harder than other natural minerals, it is not tougher nor harder to break than others. Diamond, for example, can be somewhat brittle in some cases, and pressure on an edge, even with something much softer, can chip it, or leave a row of tiny chips that can even, sometimes, resemble a scratch. Worse, diamond has perfect cleavage in four directions. Attempting to scratch a diamond in just the wrong place, even with a softer material, could potentially split the stone in two or more pieces. Ask any diamond setter just how easy it is to damage a diamond even with just steel tools, and steel is much softer than diamond.
You are correct, Ganesh, that hardness tests were once used, mostly by people who had no other means to test anything, nor any gemological or mineralogical knowlege with which to work. Citing an historical precedent for a test which is essentially based on ignorance should not suggest that it's still a valid test.
Not only can diamond be damaged, if not scratched, by softer stones, but in testing, you can also damage the testing material. And if you don't know how to do it precisely and properly, you can get a false test result. If, as you suggest in your other post, it's a non valuable piece you test with and which is harmed, then perhaps little harm is done.
But even that can be deceptive. A store I once worked for had a customer come in and look at a gents diamond ring. He liked the price, but thought it low, since he'd been comparing at the very costly mall stores that marked things up a lot in order to be able to routinely put them on sale... So he wondered if the diamonds were indeed real. He asked. But before waiting for an answer, he figured he could find out himself, and dragged the ring across the glass top of the showcase. Sure enough, he had his answer, and happily declared that they must be diamonds. He was not, however, pleased when the store manager informed him that the showcase glass top, which now had a severe and obvious swirling scratch (he'd been quite vigorous in his "test", would have to be replaced, and that it happend to be about a $250 dollar piece of glass. How, he was asked, would he like to pay for the damage his ignorance had caused... And if you take a fine old Tiffany's silver and rhinestone costume jewelry piece, and proceed to scratch the rhinestones to make sure they aren't diamond, you're going to have a very unhappy owner of that valuable piece of costume jewelry.
Here's the point, Ganesh. To be blunt, you don't really know what you're doing with diamonds. And while it's great to research the archaic histories, and old traditional methods of cutting, polishing, testing, mining, or whatever, of diamonds and gems, it is just plain stupid to then assume these must be still valid methods unless your research into current and modern methods confirms this to be the case. In the case of hardness testing, Every major gemological authority or contemporary book on the planet would tell you it's a poor idea, almost never needed, and should be done only in the rarest of circumstances, and then only with training in how to do it with the least risk and most accurate result.
The test was indeed "introduced" to test for fakes or non diamonds. But keep in mind, this introduction was by people who simply knew no better, nor any other method, and there certainly were fine methods available to anyone who'd trained themselves as to the nature of diamonds. The history does not defend it. As to other stones one might need to identify as not being diamond, there are of course, the actual fakes, or simulants like cubic zirconia or YAG. But then there are natural stones like white sapphire, white spinel, white natural zircon, or even sphene and a few others. All these can have significant value. Some may be quite rare and fine gems. You certainly don't want to test their hardness. And what about some of the newer synthetics? Moissanite is synthetic silicon carbide. it is softer than diamond, but not by a whole lot, and is tougher and harder to break. That's a recipe for an accident if you try to test it with a diamond, even if it were not also quite costly. Then there is a process which coats a synthetic cubic zirconia with a thin chemical vapor depostion layer of amorphous diamond. That too is quite tough and might fool your test, or if not, would mean damaging an expensive and attractive simulant. Or, what about actual synthetic diamond? That too, is something that needs to be identified, but your hardness test is useless.
As has been stated before, you simply never need a hardness test. A good loupe, and the knowledge of how to use it, is all you need most of the time. The key is not the loupe. It's the knowledge. This, by the way, is also all you need for rough uncut diamonds. Diamond crystals are extremely distinctive, especially in gem grades. Very little else in mineralogy looks at all anything like them.
On Mon, 28 Sep 2009 03:03:36 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Ganesh
<ganeshjacha...@gmail.com> wrote: >>On Sep 26, 10:34 am, Ganesh <ganesh.growthsoluti...@gmail.com> wrote: >>> 4. The best method, scratch a diamond with something, if a scratch >>> appears easily, it cannot be a diamond.
>>In the text I read, there's talk about scratching diamond with Ruby. >>It is said "even a Ruby cannot scratch a diamond". There should be no >>problem trying that.
Yes, unless you happen, in the process, to damage the diamond. You might not scratch it, but you sure can damage it if you're not careful. And some of the non-gem ruby material is so fractured that it's useless for hardness testing, since it crumbles, appearing to be scratched when it is not. Again, you really need to know what you're doing before any hardness test becomes useful and at the same time, safe to do. Now, if the "ruby" AND the presumed diamond, are both things you don't care about, and don't mind damaging, well, then go right ahead. Have fun.
>>There's no harm doing that with an uncut diamond.
See above. Same cautions apply.
>>And the Ruby in use can be a Non jewel ruby, a piece meant for testing >>purpose.
When used, generally the tester is either a flat surfaced plate, or a point, in either case usually made of a synthetic ruby or sapphire (you know they're the same mineral, right?) Often, a sintered "ceramic" version is used, as it's tougher and harder to chip
>> This is just a thought, I am not an expert in this subject. >>So, one should rather go with comments from people like "Peter W. >>Rowe" and others on this.
Thanks. But better, educate yourself. Take courses in gemology, or do your reading NOT in the old traditional books, which are out of date and often incorrect. Rather, do your reading in current, up to date, respected books on gemology and gem testing. Read the current publications in the field. Modern gemology is an interesting and complex subject. Much more so than fiddling around with old books wondering if the old ways still are worth using. Generally, they're less useful in today's world than they might once have been. Interesting as history, but that's often about it.
And please. be cautious about what you put in your Blog. The world is full of people who are easily fooled, and fully misinformed, just waiting for more wrong information. They are better served by intellegent, careful postings that reflect proper research, not hype or myth or legend, unless those are the actual point of the Blog. From what I saw, that doesn't seem to be the case.
Ganesh wrote: > On Sep 26, 11:17 am, Peter W. Rowe <rec.crafts.jewe...@earthlink.net> > wrote:
>>> On Fri, 25 Sep 2009 22:34:52 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Ganesh >>> <ganesh.growthsoluti...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> I'm trying to find various traditional methods of diamond >>>>> identification:-
>>>>> I've read the following. But, so far have not tested their >>>>> authenticity:- >>> These are great at proving the old adage that you can't believe everything you >>> read.
> {snip] >>>>> 4. The best method, scratch a diamond with something, if a scratch >>>>> appears easily, it cannot be a diamond. >>> Very bad idea. Diamond CAN be scratched, especially by another diamond. > . > That's true. Yes it could be a very bad idea. But, which other > transparent white gemstone does one need to often test for being a > diamond? Possible this test was introduced to test fake transparent > white stone being sold as diamonds. These tests were proposed when > advanced instruments were not available. Some of these can be still > handy for initial assessment.
Only used by a fool on polished goods. Dude, it's time you educate yourself and stop with your inane ramblings, and feigned interest in a variety of subjects.
There is a saying in the Talmud that comes to mind. "Ten wise men cannot answer what one fool can ask."
> yourself and stop with your inane ramblings, and feigned interest in a > variety of subjects.
He's operating in India, an environment where the only formal training available is in jewellery design, and the design taught is computer based, stereotyped and almost totally rigid.
In India there is little or no respect for craft skills and craftsmen are paid very little.
There aren't any schools where he will be able to pick up useful professional level practical skills, except those run for ladies who want a hobby.
This has advantages, a plumber or an electrician costs about $10 a day, and disadvantages in that highly skilled craftsmen such as jewellers (Karigars) are paid little and learn their skills sat at their father's feet.
Now musical instrument makers and cabinet makers can set up as self-employed, their raw materials cost little there. But an Indian working in precious metals almost certainly can't afford the raw materials and tools to set up by himself, especially somewhere like Mumbai (where I live when I'm in India) where rents are high and commercial rents are astronomical.
Every respectable Indian lady has a jeweller, but he sits in his shop and designs things on his shop computer for his customers and employs poorly paid craftsmen to make the stuff.
The idea that a respectable Indian jeweller would make his own items, or even have the practical skills to make them after designing them would sound slightly absurd in a society when the normal mode of speech for a person talking about a piece of jewellery they have had made by their jeweller is: 'I have made this pendant'.
The guy's got problems not of his making, but, to be honest, what he actually needs to get out of India and into one of the big European or US jewellery schools for a couple of years.
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
> Dude, it's time you educate >> yourself and stop with your inane ramblings, and feigned interest in a >> variety of subjects.
> He's operating in India, an environment where the only formal training > available is in jewellery design, and the design taught is computer > based, stereotyped and almost totally rigid.
> In India there is little or no respect for craft skills and craftsmen > are paid very little.
> There aren't any schools where he will be able to pick up useful > professional level practical skills, except those run for ladies who > want a hobby.
> This has advantages, a plumber or an electrician costs about $10 a day, > and disadvantages in that highly skilled craftsmen such as jewellers > (Karigars) are paid little and learn their skills sat at their father's > feet.
> Now musical instrument makers and cabinet makers can set up as > self-employed, their raw materials cost little there. But an Indian > working in precious metals almost certainly can't afford the raw > materials and tools to set up by himself, especially somewhere like > Mumbai (where I live when I'm in India) where rents are high and > commercial rents are astronomical.
> Every respectable Indian lady has a jeweller, but he sits in his shop > and designs things on his shop computer for his customers and employs > poorly paid craftsmen to make the stuff.
> The idea that a respectable Indian jeweller would make his own items, > or even have the practical skills to make them after designing them > would sound slightly absurd in a society when the normal mode of speech > for a person talking about a piece of jewellery they have had made by > their jeweller is: 'I have made this pendant'.
> The guy's got problems not of his making, but, to be honest, what he > actually needs to get out of India and into one of the big European or > US jewellery schools for a couple of years.
If as you describe, the jewellery trade in India and the craftsmen working in it are devided into those who design and those who make. the latter being poorly paid. It cannot be that simple. Because some one somewhere has to find the money to pay for the raw materials and jewels before the said poorly paid worker can start. Does the designer ask for say half the cost up front? Or does he supply the craftsman with the gold/silver and stones? someone has to fund the exercise. Wether in India or here. Just curious. Ted
On Sep 28, 3:50 pm, Peter W. Rowe <rec.crafts.jewe...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> And please. be cautious about what you put in your Blog.
Thanks for identifying the problem; I have clearly added that in the blog in clear bold text in a bigger font..
"Note: Don't try this with a real polished diamond, you can spoil it. This test was used in the past and is only handy when identifying a raw diamond stone."
On Sep 28, 3:50 pm, Peter W. Rowe <rec.crafts.jewe...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >>So, one should rather go with comments from people like "Peter W. > >>Rowe" and others on this.
> Thanks. But better, educate yourself. Take courses in gemology, or do your > reading NOT in the old traditional books, which are out of date and often > incorrect. Rather, do your reading in current, up to date, respected books on > gemology and gem testing.
I am researching old methods to study how people actually arrived at the current ones in stages. Who knows what could be hidden out there, I could land up with some methods which could rather bring down the overall production cost. Again, what Peter is trying to point out is right, some times it can be real dangerous trying things. So, readers please use your own minds, be real careful.... Diamonds are very very precious.
On Sep 28, 3:50=A0pm, Peter W. Rowe <rec.crafts.jewe...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> And please. be cautious about what you put in your Blog. The world is full of > people who are easily fooled, and fully misinformed, just waiting for more wrong > information.
I have added a big caution note. I hope that should serve the purpose.
On Sep 28, 3:50 pm, Peter W. Rowe <rec.crafts.jewe...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> And please. be cautious about what you put in your Blog. The world is full of > people who are easily fooled, and fully misinformed, just waiting for more wrong > information. =hey are better served by intellegent, careful postings that > reflect proper research, not hype or myth or legend, unless those are the actual > point of the Blog. From what I saw, that doesn't seem to be the case.
On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 02:33:13 -0700, Ted Frater wrote: > William Black wrote: >> Abrasha wrote:
>> Dude, it's time you educate >>> yourself and stop with your inane ramblings, and feigned interest in a >>> variety of subjects.
>> He's operating in India, an environment where the only formal training >> available is in jewellery design, and the design taught is computer >> based, stereotyped and almost totally rigid.
>> In India there is little or no respect for craft skills and craftsmen >> are paid very little.
>> There aren't any schools where he will be able to pick up useful >> professional level practical skills, except those run for ladies who >> want a hobby.
>> This has advantages, a plumber or an electrician costs about $10 a >> day, >> and disadvantages in that highly skilled craftsmen such as jewellers >> (Karigars) are paid little and learn their skills sat at their father's >> feet.
>> Now musical instrument makers and cabinet makers can set up as >> self-employed, their raw materials cost little there. But an Indian >> working in precious metals almost certainly can't afford the raw >> materials and tools to set up by himself, especially somewhere like >> Mumbai (where I live when I'm in India) where rents are high and >> commercial rents are astronomical.
>> Every respectable Indian lady has a jeweller, but he sits in his shop >> and designs things on his shop computer for his customers and employs >> poorly paid craftsmen to make the stuff.
>> The idea that a respectable Indian jeweller would make his own items, >> or even have the practical skills to make them after designing them >> would sound slightly absurd in a society when the normal mode of speec= h >> for a person talking about a piece of jewellery they have had made by >> their jeweller is: 'I have made this pendant'.
>> The guy's got problems not of his making, but, to be honest, what he >> actually needs to get out of India and into one of the big European or >> US jewellery schools for a couple of years.
> If as you describe, the jewellery trade in India and the craftsmen > working in it are devided into those who design and those who make. > the latter being poorly paid. > It cannot be that simple. > Because some one somewhere has to find the money to pay for the raw > materials and jewels before the said poorly paid worker can start. > Does the designer ask for say half the cost up front? Or does he > supply the craftsman with the gold/silver and stones? someone has to > fund the exercise. > Wether in India or here. > Just curious. > Ted
Yes, and then there is the matter of their traditional jewelry, and techniques. Surely that has not died altogether?
Ted Frater wrote: > If as you describe, the jewellery trade in India and the craftsmen > working in it are devided into those who design and those who make. > the latter being poorly paid. > It cannot be that simple. > Because some one somewhere has to find the money to pay for the raw > materials and jewels before the said poorly paid worker can start. > Does the designer ask for say half the cost up front? > Or does he supply the craftsman with the gold/silver and stones? > someone has to fund the exercise. > Wether in India or here.
The people who own jewellery businesses in India are, in reality, bullion dealers rather then jewellers.
Because of a tax levied on gold entering India the bullion business there can be a very murky business indeed.
The cost of turning gold into jewellery in India is trivial compared to the cost of the raw materials
The designers I've met are all related to the chap who runs the bullion business, so they're 'family'. Nepotism is respectable in India and jewellery design is not terribly difficult if what people want is 'more of the same but slightly different engraving please'.
Because the political system has always been a touch unstable people want portable wealth and jewellery is one way of having that without suspicion that you've got a sack of gold bars under the bed.
Just about every branch of every bank in India has a safe deposit vault under it where the family's gold is stashed.
The craftsmen are almost incidental in all this. They're just people turning the family's wealth into something that can be displayed without vulgarity.
It's all really a lot more complicated than that, and there are lots of social pressures involved.
Layered on top of that there are the factories making jewellery for export who don't appear to be factories at all but seem to use 'home workers' as their labour source. They're all locked into exclusive contracts with overseas companies and won't sell domestically.
Jewellery is big business in India, but there aren't any big manufacturers, the shopkeepers make their own stuff in their own workshops, but very little of it is what you'd call 'exciting'.
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.
polymer wrote: > On Tue, 29 Sep 2009 02:33:13 -0700, Ted Frater wrote:
>> William Black wrote: >>> Abrasha wrote:
>>> Dude, it's time you educate >>>> yourself and stop with your inane ramblings, and feigned interest in a >>>> variety of subjects. >>> He's operating in India, an environment where the only formal training >>> available is in jewellery design, and the design taught is computer >>> based, stereotyped and almost totally rigid.
>>> In India there is little or no respect for craft skills and craftsmen >>> are paid very little.
>>> There aren't any schools where he will be able to pick up useful >>> professional level practical skills, except those run for ladies who >>> want a hobby.
>>> This has advantages, a plumber or an electrician costs about $10 a >>> day, >>> and disadvantages in that highly skilled craftsmen such as jewellers >>> (Karigars) are paid little and learn their skills sat at their father's >>> feet.
>>> Now musical instrument makers and cabinet makers can set up as >>> self-employed, their raw materials cost little there. But an Indian >>> working in precious metals almost certainly can't afford the raw >>> materials and tools to set up by himself, especially somewhere like >>> Mumbai (where I live when I'm in India) where rents are high and >>> commercial rents are astronomical.
>>> Every respectable Indian lady has a jeweller, but he sits in his shop >>> and designs things on his shop computer for his customers and employs >>> poorly paid craftsmen to make the stuff.
>>> The idea that a respectable Indian jeweller would make his own items, >>> or even have the practical skills to make them after designing them >>> would sound slightly absurd in a society when the normal mode of speec= > h >>> for a person talking about a piece of jewellery they have had made by >>> their jeweller is: 'I have made this pendant'.
>>> The guy's got problems not of his making, but, to be honest, what he >>> actually needs to get out of India and into one of the big European or >>> US jewellery schools for a couple of years.
>> If as you describe, the jewellery trade in India and the craftsmen >> working in it are devided into those who design and those who make. >> the latter being poorly paid. >> It cannot be that simple. >> Because some one somewhere has to find the money to pay for the raw >> materials and jewels before the said poorly paid worker can start. >> Does the designer ask for say half the cost up front? Or does he >> supply the craftsman with the gold/silver and stones? someone has to >> fund the exercise. >> Wether in India or here. >> Just curious. >> Ted
> Yes, and then there is the matter of their traditional jewelry, > and techniques. Surely that has not died altogether?
Goodness no.
It is very much as it always was.
There is some spectacular work being done and it displays marvellous mechanical skills.
But it's all the bloody same...
-- William Black
"Any number under six"
The answer given by Englishman Richard Peeke when asked by the Duke of Medina Sidonia how many Spanish sword and buckler men he could beat single handed with a quarterstaff.