Recently visited China (Canton, or Guangzhou) and got pressured into buying two jade bangles. The short story is that I wanted to buy some Jade, and wanted the two bangles to be cut from the same stone; one for me and one for a certain other person. I am somewhat naive and expected US prices of $100 or so each, but was surprised when I had to negotiate for over two hours to get two bangles for almost 3700RMB (about $520) and a smallish "gold happiness jade" charm.
I was drawn to the pieces because they clearly are "twins" and they are whitish with flecks of green. They also have "purple" shadows when held up to the light; supposedly that is very good and the sales person used terms like "mature" and "smooth" to sell the virtues of these pieces.
I am almost certain I was ripped off although the pieces are supposedly "A" grade, I supposedly have a guarantee (in Chinese, not even sure what it says), and the dealer is supposedly very respectable.
How do I find out if these two are worth anything even close to what I paid? I assumed that buying Jade directly in China would give me steep discounts; if I paid 3700RMB in China, does that really mean these two are worth, say, over $2000 back here in the states? I highly doubt it, I wouldn't buy these for anything like that. Clearly I'm no expert, however. Even if they appraise for close to the price I paid in China that would be OK, but again, I highly doubt it as I see bangles for $100 and much much less.
How can I get a fair appraisal, more for curiosity and learning than anything else?
On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 03:04:19 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry t_pas...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>How do I find out if these two are worth anything even close to what I >>paid? I assumed that buying Jade directly in China would give me >>steep discounts;
why would you assume you'd get steep discounts on jade, in the country where it is valued higher than almost anywhere else in the world? In the U.S., and much of the rest of the western world where you can buy jade, the majority of buyers are not all that picky. If it's pretty, they're happy, which is why so much of the jade sold here is cheap junk, either low quality, or outright dyed, or just not actually jade. In China, while the cheap stuff is still available, it's more there for tourists or those who cannot afford better. The Chinese themselves value jade highly, and a higher percentage of buyers there know, and demand, quality, and are willing to pay for it. Laws of supply and demand (good stuff is not that common) will mean that prices for good jade will likely be maintained at a relatively high level, not discounted much. Highly discounted stuff would likely be junk, not worth what you paid, no matter how low the price. Higher priced jade from a respected dealer, on the other hand, might well be exactly what it was represented as being, and could easily be worth what you paid. That price, by the way, is still fairly modest, as jade goes. The very finest qualities are a rare and very high priced gem.
By the way, mainland China is not generally the original "source" of fine jade. The finest Jadeite rough is mined in Myanmar (Burma), not china, but the extreme interest and long history of working jade in China means they import a great deal of jade into china to be cut and worked. That includes, by the way, large amounts of Nephrite jade, the type of jade that's usually sort of darkish olive green, sometimes called Siberian Jade, Taiwan Jade, Alaska jade, British Columbia jade, and other such. Nephrite is one of two minerals called jade. The other, Jadeite, is the more valuable of the two, has a more crystaline texture, and comes in the whites, light greys, light green, "spinach" textures, an intense almost emerald green (imperial jade) that can command astronomical prices (tens of thousands of dollars per carat) But anyway. Like I said, Mainland China, while there may be a lot of jade offered, is not generally the "source", or the main wholesale outlet. Hong Kong is the largest of the wholesale/dealer centers, and there, if you've got the right connections, you might get access to true wholesale levels (though it's not likely if you're not in the gem/jewelry trade). But a highly reputable dealer in mainland china is most likely a highly respected retail dealer, not a wholesale one. This doesn't mean you got ripped off, it just means you are more likely to have paid a fair price on a material that's as saleable, or more so, in China, than elsewhere.
>> if I paid 3700RMB in China, does that really mean >>these two are worth, say, over $2000 back here in the states?
You're assuming you bought them at a wholesale level. Why are you making that assumption? You bought them, from what it sounds like, at a retail outlet. I'd guess the price you paid, in dollars, is not much lower than what they'd sell for in the States. It might be, of course, but I'd not assume they would be.
>> I >>highly doubt it, I wouldn't buy these for anything like that. Clearly >>I'm no expert, however.
And this nicely illustrates the difference between the average jade buyer in the states, and one in China. You're not an expert, and you have not learned to appreciate the subtle differences between qualities, some of which are as much cultural preferences as they are visual ones. Without that background, the value of one quality over another isn't apparent to you, or to the typical U.S. buyer. That's why even finding really good jade in the U.S. might be more difficult than in China, since there, a higher percentage of buyers will appreciate and recognize fine quality.
>> Even if they appraise for close to the price >>I paid in China that would be OK, but again, I highly doubt it as I >>see bangles for $100 and much much less.
It's a pretty good bet that the vast majority of the lower priced jade bangles sold in the U.S. are not especially fine quality. Many are dyed, not natural color. Some are not even actually jade, but related materials. Telling these apart, by the way, is not always easy, nor is it easy to detect dyed material without some expertise and experience. The differences between good quality and mediocre quality can be subtle to the untrained eye, especially at first glance just through a showcase window.
>>How can I get a fair appraisal, more for curiosity and learning than >>anything else?
You need to find a gem appraiser who's knowlegeable about jade. This may take some looking... The average jewelry store won't have that expertise. If you find a store that happens to specialize in or carries a wider than usual range of jade, then perhaps that's one place. But that's not common in the U.S. outside the "chinatown" sorts of neighborhoods. If you live in Los Angeles, you won't have trouble. Same thing in New York, or a number of other cities where there's not only a large jewelry industry, but also perhaps a substantial trade in jade, and interest in it. You may also be able to find books on jade in a local library. There are several good ones in print, which can help to start to educate you on jade quality.
<rec.crafts.jewe...@earthlink.net> wrote: > On Sun, 02 Mar 2008 03:04:19 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry t_pas...@my-deja.com > wrote:
> >>How do I find out if these two are worth anything even close to what I > >>paid? I assumed that buying Jade directly in China would give me > >>steep discounts;
> why would you assume you'd get steep discounts on jade, in the country where it > is valued higher than almost anywhere else in the world? In the U.S., and much > of the rest of the western world where you can buy jade, the majority of buyers > are not all that picky. If it's pretty, they're happy, which is why so much of > the jade sold here is cheap junk, either low quality, or outright dyed, or just > not actually jade. In China, while the cheap stuff is still available, it's
You've made some excellent points that I hadn't thought through properly. These aren't like the shoes we were buying for 40RMB (US $5.50) which sell here for US$90. There's no "real" Jade market in the US that I'm aware of, unlike the shoes. Secondly, you're right, this was a retail establishment in the "real" consumer market of Jade, not wholesale, which seems obvious now, but needed your insight to help me figure out.
I suppose I shouldn't have spent so much if I didn't realise the value of what I was purchasing. On the other hand, every time I appreciate and admire my and my other's bangles, I do get a better feeling for Jade; and also asking questions like this and reading this and other articles has helped deepen my knowledge.
I'm sure I'll enjoy these pieces for a very long time and I'm now pretty sure I paid a fair price for some good Jade, probably better than I would have gotten here in the states, even though it's not as much as I would have spent (former implies the latter). And I probably would have missed out. I wasn't buying it for an investment or to flip it, after all.
Incidentally, the dealer did tell me about the "Burma" Jade and supposedly this is Burma Jade, A-grade stuff. I don't know about nephrite and jadeite, etc., his English wasn't perfect, obviously. It's white, as I said, with green flakes, purple shadows and the more I wear it, the more I like it.
> Incidentally, the dealer did tell me about the "Burma" Jade and > supposedly this is Burma Jade, A-grade stuff. I don't know about > nephrite and jadeite, etc., his English wasn't perfect, obviously. > It's white, as I said, with green flakes, purple shadows and the more > I wear it, the more I like it.
From your description it's clearly jadeite and not nephrite.
And thanks to Peter for the elaborations, I think I bought the right material beads, going for jadeite rather than nephrite.
Maren HiloBeads: Beads - Beading Supplies - Hand-made Jewelry http://www.hilobeads.com/ (yes, I know, I shouldn't call that jewelry here, I'm just a bead person)
On Thu, 06 Mar 2008 20:50:11 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Maren at google
<m.pur...@jach.hawaii.edu> wrote: >>On Mar 5, 3:58 pm, t_pas...@my-deja.com wrote:
>>> Incidentally, the dealer did tell me about the "Burma" Jade and >>> supposedly this is Burma Jade, A-grade stuff. I don't know about >>> nephrite and jadeite, etc., his English wasn't perfect, obviously. >>> It's white, as I said, with green flakes, purple shadows and the more >>> I wear it, the more I like it.
>>From your description it's clearly jadeite and not nephrite.
>>And thanks to Peter for the elaborations, I think I bought the right >>material beads, going for jadeite rather than nephrite.
Neither is right or wrong, they each have their respective strengths. Nephrite, for example, is less "crystaline" looking, and for some uses, that's nice. Also the usually much lower price makes it attractive in some instances. It's also tougher and harder to break, though both types of jade (nephrite or jadeite) are quite tough as far as gem materials go. Jadeite is of course, the more highly valued in it's finest qualites, but as I say, for some uses, nephrite may be the preferred choice. Which is right, depends on your use and tastes.
>>Maren >>HiloBeads: Beads - Beading Supplies - Hand-made Jewelry >>http://www.hilobeads.com/ >>(yes, I know, I shouldn't call that jewelry here, I'm just a bead >>person)
If it's jewelry, call it so. Jewelry does not mean it must be metal. I'm writing this now from the annual meeting of the Society of North American Goldsmiths (SNAG). Lots of wonderfully creative jewelers here. I had dinner with, among others, a nice lady who, in her midlife age range, went back to school learned jewelry making, and is now just finishing up her well deserved Masters degree. None of the wonderful jewelry she was wearing was made of metal. Paper, bone, porcelain, and other things, but little if any metal. Another lady at the table showed off an absolutely stunning and sumptuous necklace made of fabric, to which she'd stiched some 60 thousand seed beeds. An amazing piece of work, which she says took her over 200 hours. Again, no metal, mostly bead work, and clearly deserving of the term jewelry.
Jewelry is jewelry. Whether its metal or some other material, the key to whether it deserves respect for it's craftsmanship, and/or for it's aesthetics and are, are not dependent on the material, but rather how, and how well, those materials have been used. There are people who, never having had any art training (either self taught or in school), who see some cute bracelets at some cheap crafts fair, and figure, correctly, that they could do that. So the buy some beads and string up their own, are proud of themselves and think they've made art. Sometimes, rarely, they have. Usually they've just copied someone elses work. Still, this is a start. with practice, they can get creative, and explore the material. If they get past the stage of doing things they've already seen elsewhere, and start doing their own explorations with a material, and explore pushing it in directions that may be new to them or better, new to the material in general, then that creative effort can well deserve the respect as, and the term, fine art. Doesn't matter if it's beads, or silver, or paper mache. These are just the "paint". It's the picture and the creative thought and work that determine it's worthyness and identity.
This group, while mostly a tradition of metalworkers, welcomes discussion about jewelry making itself, both the craft skills and craft level, and the fine art level of working. Those who are just beginning are encouraged to keep at it, keep exploring, keep learning.
Now, it's true that bead workers don't spend as much time here. That's mostly because there are several other newsgroups spec ifically devoted to bead work. And this group has some members who have occasionall shown little patience with people who find a new hobby doing some very simple beading projects that amount to little more that basic hobby crafting with little skill or creativity, but who are now convined that their new website selling their simple things will bring the world to their door and the dollars to follow, with acclaim as artists closely behind. Understandably, some people are unkind to such grandiose expectations, as they tend to discount and degrade the higher levels of experience and excellence that many professional and serious amateurs try to achieve.
But even if you're a beginner, if your work is sincere, your desire to learn and advance also real, you'll find plenty of people to welcome you. No apologies needed.
First of all, thanks for taking the time for such a long and nice reply. I'm one of the more-or-less regulars on rec.craft.beads and I come here to learn other stuff. I just felt that my .sig is almost inappropriate for this newsgroup :-)
> >>And thanks to Peter for the elaborations, I think I bought the right > >>material beads, going for jadeite rather than nephrite.
> Neither is right or wrong, they each have their respective strengths. Nephrite, > for example, is less "crystaline" looking, and for some uses, that's nice. Also > the usually much lower price makes it attractive in some instances. It's also > tougher and harder to break, though both types of jade (nephrite or jadeite) are > quite tough as far as gem materials go. Jadeite is of course, the more highly > valued in it's finest qualites, but as I say, for some uses, nephrite may be > the preferred choice. Which is right, depends on your use and tastes.
Most of the bangles and carved things I see here are nephrite. I'm not a carver, and other than beads and wire and such things I don't resell stuff (I have recently turned into a bit of a bead store, but mostly to supply myself and other people locally with things that either can't be found here or are very expensive, before that I wasn't reselling anything, and I probably wouldn't have gotten into buying as much jadeite as I did).
To me jadeite has more character, and being tougher is more appropriate to what I make.
(it almost hurts to cut what Peter wrote, but for brevity I'm just going to keep what I'm commenting on)
> If it's jewelry, call it so.
Well, it is and it isn't. A lot of it is farmers market stuff for tourists. Locally made in Hawaii, and, I admit that I actually like most of it.
> Jewelry is jewelry. Whether its metal or some other material, the key to > whether it deserves respect for it's craftsmanship, and/or for it's aesthetics > and are, are not dependent on the material, but rather how, and how well, those > materials have been used. There are people who, never having had any art > training (either self taught or in school), who see some cute bracelets at some > cheap crafts fair, and figure, correctly, that they could do that.
I run into that a lot. My craftsmanship isn't great, my manual dexterity isn't great and I probably need new glasses (but just for that, and with a full time job and being able to read both paper and computer it hasn't hit the priority list yet). A lot of people think they can make what I make, and then there's the remarks on the other side "Did you make that? That's gorgeous" - people at work know I make things and wear the things I make.
> It's the picture and the creative thought > and work that determine it's worthyness and identity.
I have a bead customer who makes really unique things. Yet, I think it's a matter of taste, I'd rather wear mine than hers any time.
> Those who are just beginning are encouraged to keep at it, > keep exploring, keep learning.
Thank you Peter, and that's why I come here.
> And this group has some members who have occasionally shown little patience with > people who find a new hobby doing some very simple beading projects that amount
And some of those people are very very good. If somebody can't see past the very little patience they might as well not be here.
> But even if you're a beginner, if your work is sincere, your desire to learn and > advance also real, you'll find plenty of people to welcome you. No apologies > needed.
Thanks again, Aloha, Maren (posting this rather than replying by email, because this isn't just to Peter)
Hi, I have a wonderful Jade Jar that I inherited from my father. It is complete with lid, and has hand carved rings that are carved out of the original body. My father was in the merchant marine for 40 years and he picked up a lot of things from overseas like this. He also picked up trees made of jade and pocketwatches made of silver that say "siam" on the bodies... This "vessel" is really the nicest thing I own... It's one solid piece, except for the lid, and there's these rings that are free hanging that are carved out of the side of the vessel... Unfortunately,in this age of 10.2% unemployment, I'm looking to findout how much I can get for things like this. I have easy access to San Francisco and Salt Lake City, do you have any leads on peope that can give me an HONEST appraisal of my items?
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