I know all you hotshot wheelbuilders out there will think this is obvious or trivial, but here goes: All the books I've read on wheelbuilding say you should true alternately for rim runout and out- of-round. But I've discovered that after truing for, say, runout, squeezing each pair of spokes together is really helpful. By squeezing them together, it is really easy to tell which ones are too tight and which ones are too loose because they will feel so different from the other pairs of spokes that have about the right tension. When the spokes are still fairly loose, loosen each spoke that seems too tight until it has roughly the same tension as the others on the same side, and tighten each spoke that seems too loose until it has the same tension as the others on that side. When you start to get the spokes pretty tight, make these adjustments by only 1/4 or 1/2 turn or so at a time. Then proceed to true for roundness. Then before you alternate back to truing for for runout again, do the spoke- squeeze thing again. This procedure solved all the problems I was having getting wheels round and true! I was never able to figure out a foolproof, systematic and methodical way of getting all the spokes at the same tension until I started doing this.
OK, hotshots, go ahead and tell me how dumb I was not to have discovered this a long time ago! Doh!
> I know all you hotshot wheelbuilders out there will think this is > obvious or trivial, but here goes: All the books I've read on > wheelbuilding say you should true alternately for rim runout and out- > of-round. But I've discovered that after truing for, say, runout, > squeezing each pair of spokes together is really helpful. By > squeezing them together, it is really easy to tell which ones are too > tight and which ones are too loose because they will feel so different > from the other pairs of spokes that have about the right tension. > When the spokes are still fairly loose, loosen each spoke that seems > too tight until it has roughly the same tension as the others on the > same side, and tighten each spoke that seems too loose until it has > the same tension as the others on that side. When you start to get > the spokes pretty tight, make these adjustments by only 1/4 or 1/2 > turn or so at a time. Then proceed to true for roundness. Then > before you alternate back to truing for for runout again, do the spoke- > squeeze thing again. This procedure solved all the problems I was > having getting wheels round and true! I was never able to figure out a > foolproof, systematic and methodical way of getting all the spokes at > the same tension until I started doing this.
> OK, hotshots, go ahead and tell me how dumb I was not to have > discovered this a long time ago! Doh!
Thanks Bill, That statement helps me with my problem I have had for awhile as I have just started to do my own wheel work. No flames from me on this topic. Cheers, Rick in Tennessee
> I know all you hotshot wheelbuilders out there will think this is > obvious or trivial, but here goes: All the books I've read on > wheelbuilding say you should true alternately for rim runout and out- > of-round. But I've discovered that after truing for, say, runout, > squeezing each pair of spokes together is really helpful. By > squeezing them together, it is really easy to tell which ones are too > tight and which ones are too loose because they will feel so different > from the other pairs of spokes that have about the right tension. > When the spokes are still fairly loose, loosen each spoke that seems > too tight until it has roughly the same tension as the others on the > same side, and tighten each spoke that seems too loose until it has > the same tension as the others on that side. When you start to get > the spokes pretty tight, make these adjustments by only 1/4 or 1/2 > turn or so at a time. Then proceed to true for roundness. Then > before you alternate back to truing for for runout again, do the spoke- > squeeze thing again. This procedure solved all the problems I was > having getting wheels round and true!
That's a good technique. I am accustomed to giving spokes a little pluck to hear them when deciding which ones to adjust and in which direction.
My latest refinement to my truing method has been to run the rim in the notched portion of the indicator and true for lateral and radial position at the same time, rather than alternately. Almost every displacement has a bias on the other axis, and by observing the vector of the displacement and the relative tensions of spokes in the area, it becomes more obvious which spokes need the most taking up or letting out, and how many spokes must be adjusted to correct any given deviation. By truing both axes in the same operations, I find that I can spend less time sorting out a wheel, keep more consistent tension, and send out repaired wheels that are usually both truer and rounder than new.
> > I know all you hotshot wheelbuilders out there will think this is > > obvious or trivial, but here goes: All the books I've read on > > wheelbuilding say you should true alternately for rim runout and out- > > of-round. But I've discovered that after truing for, say, runout, > > squeezing each pair of spokes together is really helpful. By > > squeezing them together, it is really easy to tell which ones are too > > tight and which ones are too loose because they will feel so different > > from the other pairs of spokes that have about the right tension. > > When the spokes are still fairly loose, loosen each spoke that seems > > too tight until it has roughly the same tension as the others on the > > same side, and tighten each spoke that seems too loose until it has > > the same tension as the others on that side. When you start to get > > the spokes pretty tight, make these adjustments by only 1/4 or 1/2 > > turn or so at a time. Then proceed to true for roundness. Then > > before you alternate back to truing for for runout again, do the spoke- > > squeeze thing again. This procedure solved all the problems I was > > having getting wheels round and true!
> That's a good technique. I am accustomed to giving spokes a little > pluck to hear them when deciding which ones to adjust and in which > direction.
> My latest refinement to my truing method has been to run the rim in > the notched portion of the indicator and true for lateral and radial > position at the same time, rather than alternately. Almost every > displacement has a bias on the other axis, and by observing the vector > of the displacement and the relative tensions of spokes in the area, > it becomes more obvious which spokes need the most taking up or > letting out, and how many spokes must be adjusted to correct any given > deviation. By truing both axes in the same operations, I find that I > can spend less time sorting out a wheel, keep more consistent tension, > and send out repaired wheels that are usually both truer and rounder > than new.
Couple of lolly sticks with the rim 'sitting' in the V seems to work well.
Bill wrote: > I know all you hotshot wheelbuilders out there will think this is > obvious or trivial, but here goes: All the books I've read on > wheelbuilding say you should true alternately for rim runout and out- > of-round. But I've discovered that after truing for, say, runout, > squeezing each pair of spokes together is really helpful. By > squeezing them together, it is really easy to tell which ones are too > tight and which ones are too loose because they will feel so different > from the other pairs of spokes that have about the right tension. > When the spokes are still fairly loose, loosen each spoke that seems > too tight until it has roughly the same tension as the others on the > same side, and tighten each spoke that seems too loose until it has > the same tension as the others on that side. When you start to get > the spokes pretty tight, make these adjustments by only 1/4 or 1/2 > turn or so at a time. Then proceed to true for roundness. Then > before you alternate back to truing for for runout again, do the spoke- > squeeze thing again. This procedure solved all the problems I was > having getting wheels round and true! I was never able to figure out a > foolproof, systematic and methodical way of getting all the spokes at > the same tension until I started doing this.
> OK, hotshots, go ahead and tell me how dumb I was not to have > discovered this a long time ago! Doh!
I tend to spin the wheel and run a pencil on the spokes for a quick test of tension. Then I'm afraid I use a tensiometer :(
Am I alone in being able, at a rough guess, to get a wheel true in both axis? I am a bit anal on counting turns. In as much as I thread the nipples, leave say 3 threads open, then go around the wheel 1/2 a turn at a time till it starts to come up to tension, then start messing about. Most of the wheels come up straight and true very quickly by this method.
> I am a bit anal on counting turns. In as much as I thread > the nipples, leave say 3 threads open, then go around the wheel 1/2 a > turn at a time till it starts to come up to tension, then start > messing about. Most of the wheels come up straight and true very > quickly by this method.
I keep counting turns until the wheel has a significant amount of tension throughout-- no slack remaining anywhere. I find that some of the anomalies I would otherwise try to true out before that point disappear in the process of bringing the wheel up to tension.
On Nov 5, 3:02 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Tosspot wrote:
> > I am a bit anal on counting turns. In as much as I thread > > the nipples, leave say 3 threads open, then go around the wheel 1/2 a > > turn at a time till it starts to come up to tension, then start > > messing about. Most of the wheels come up straight and true very > > quickly by this method.
> I keep counting turns until the wheel has a significant amount of > tension throughout-- no slack remaining anywhere. I find that some of > the anomalies I would otherwise try to true out before that point > disappear in the process of bringing the wheel up to tension.
Exactly. & when I do have an ugly displacement, it is often easier to just loosen everything up and try again (more carefully).
>Am I alone in being able, at a rough guess, to get a wheel true in >both axis? I am a bit anal on counting turns. In as much as I thread >the nipples, leave say 3 threads open
I'm the same way with counting turns - and I do a lot of quarter turns.
Never had any problem with hop.
When I'm truing laterally, I use a Sharpie pen to mark spokes or rim at the apex of the misalignment. Then I go back and tighten/loosen spokes around same. -- PeteCresswell
leave say 3 threads open, then go around the wheel 1/2 a turn at a time till it starts to come up to tension, then start messing about.
Wheel trueing discussion does implement considerable language problems, amusing reading in itself. Chalo, who does build wheels, here describes the expert’s method. Bill, on the other uh foot, either gropes for language or missed a turn – nit criticism but a point passed thru muhself. The idea (opinion) is carefully seating nipples equally just so – against the rim. Noting carefully where the rim is out then correcting those deviations from the start, from the first nudge. As there’s no reason not to tighten the OUTS before the more or less true then continue with 10% more in the outs as you go. The anaomalies:” I find that some of the anomalies I would otherwise try to true out before that point disappear in the process of bringing the wheel up to tension.” YUP! Brandt points out that as the wheel goes to true, the math effect takes place where in fact all surfaces tend to become equally distributed forces. Think on it right. TRUE ! Somewhere down road on maybe the 10th build, if you’re smart enough with spatial planning and analysis – like yawl really gotta try here it just doesn’t osmose that easily, the radial and lateral will come together. I count and mark with the sharpy from the middle of the OUT then true middle out with decreasing torques. And try quarter tightening not circumferential, latter introducing stray forces best left equalized in quartering. ?
if spokes are bent at the start before seating nipples or yawl bend spokes by squeezing then how would you tell if the nipples are actually seated equally ?
On 6 Nov, 01:23, datakoll <datak...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> if spokes are bent at the start before seating nipples or yawl bend > spokes by squeezing then how would you tell if the nipples are > actually seated equally ?
The rim runs true with a load applied and remains true with varience in load.
Norman wrote: > On Nov 5, 3:02 pm, Chalo <chalo.col...@gmail.com> wrote: >> Tosspot wrote:
>>> I am a bit anal on counting turns. In as much as I thread >>> the nipples, leave say 3 threads open, then go around the wheel 1/2 a >>> turn at a time till it starts to come up to tension, then start >>> messing about. Most of the wheels come up straight and true very >>> quickly by this method. >> I keep counting turns until the wheel has a significant amount of >> tension throughout-- no slack remaining anywhere. I find that some of >> the anomalies I would otherwise try to true out before that point >> disappear in the process of bringing the wheel up to tension.
> Exactly. & when I do have an ugly displacement, > it is often easier to just loosen everything up and > try again (more carefully).
Yep. One when I was doing in a very lassy fair[1] manner went like that. Deep sigh, undid it all, started again and perfect. And also I've noticed as well that they seem to go a bit squiffy before coming nice and straight.
Chalo wrote: "Almost every displacement has a bias on the other axis,
and by observing the vector of the displacement and the relative tensions of spokes in the area, it becomes more obvious which spokes need the most taking up or letting out, and how many spokes must be adjusted to correct any given deviation."
Chalo, would it be possible for you to go into this in any more detail, or maybe give a hypothetical example? I think I understand what you are saying, but it would be nice to have you "spoon-feed" it to me "using crayons", if you will pardon the mixed metaphor.
> I know all you hotshot wheelbuilders out there will think this is > obvious or trivial, but here goes: All the books I've read on > wheelbuilding say you should true alternately for rim runout and out- > of-round. But I've discovered that after truing for, say, runout, > squeezing each pair of spokes together is really helpful. By > squeezing them together, it is really easy to tell which ones are too > tight and which ones are too loose because they will feel so different > from the other pairs of spokes that have about the right tension. > When the spokes are still fairly loose, loosen each spoke that seems > too tight until it has roughly the same tension as the others on the > same side, and tighten each spoke that seems too loose until it has > the same tension as the others on that side. When you start to get > the spokes pretty tight, make these adjustments by only 1/4 or 1/2 > turn or so at a time. Then proceed to true for roundness. Then > before you alternate back to truing for for runout again, do the spoke- > squeeze thing again. This procedure solved all the problems I was > having getting wheels round and true! I was never able to figure out a > foolproof, systematic and methodical way of getting all the spokes at > the same tension until I started doing this.
> OK, hotshots, go ahead and tell me how dumb I was not to have > discovered this a long time ago! Doh!
Relieving the spoke crossings seems to me to be the essence of not building a wheel with built-in stresses that will release and at the least convenient time undo all your work.
So it clearly isn't a "trivial" technique you've discovered. But "obvious"? Sure it was obvious to me, heh-heh. right after I read Sheldon on wheelbuilding, and by the time I got to read Brandt's book, it was old news.
That said, I should admit I've only once ever rebuilt a pair of wheels, which were badly machine-built, but they're still round and true and tight four years later.
In fact, I made those wheels an ongoing project on the bike over a period of about a month. Once I got them approximately right -- which just means better than they arrived, nowhere near perfect -- I would use the road and the very close chainstays as my testbed, and at the midway halt of my daily ride squeeze all pairs hard and then test for spokes looser than any others, until a quarter turn on any spoke upset the balance of the wheel, the sort of transference Chalo is talking about; I too would like to hear his neddy explanation and see his crayon drawings, because he does this for a living, and, as you can imagine, I sometimes wonder whether I didn't get those two wheels right by pure dumb luck.
Andre Jute A little inaccuracy sometimes saves tons of explanation. --H.H.Munro ("Saki")(1870-1916)
Visit Jute on Amps at http://members.lycos.co.uk/fiultra/ "wonderfully well written and reasoned information for the tube audio constructor" John Broskie TubeCAD & GlassWare "an unbelievably comprehensive web site containing vital gems of wisdom" Stuart Perry Hi-Fi News & Record Review
In article <bea8db0d-463a-4f10-812f-de049ff92...@y32g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
Bill <retroguybi...@gmail.com> wrote: > Chalo wrote: "Almost every displacement has a bias on the other axis, > and by observing the vector of the displacement and the relative > tensions of spokes in the area, it becomes more obvious which spokes > need the most taking up or > letting out, and how many spokes must be adjusted to correct any given > deviation."
> Chalo, would it be possible for you to go into this in any more > detail, or maybe give a hypothetical example? I think I understand > what you are saying, but it would be nice to have you "spoon-feed" it > to me "using crayons", if you will pardon the mixed metaphor.
For the interim. Suppose the rim has a warp to the right. you tighten spokes on the left. Result: warp is attenuated, there is a radial flat spot.
Sooo, when adjusting to remove a lateral warp, you both tighten and loosen spokes to attenuate the lateral warp, while maintaining approximately the same lateral force, thus keeping radial trueness.
> In article > <bea8db0d-463a-4f10-812f-de049ff92...@y32g2000prd.googlegroups.com>,
> Bill <retroguybi...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Chalo wrote: "Almost every displacement has a bias on the other axis, > > and by observing the vector of the displacement and the relative > > tensions of spokes in the area, it becomes more obvious which spokes > > need the most taking up or > > letting out, and how many spokes must be adjusted to correct any given > > deviation."
> > Chalo, would it be possible for you to go into this in any more > > detail, or maybe give a hypothetical example? I think I understand > > what you are saying, but it would be nice to have you "spoon-feed" it > > to me "using crayons", if you will pardon the mixed metaphor.
> For the interim. Suppose the rim has a warp to the right. > you tighten spokes on the left. Result: warp is attenuated, > there is a radial flat spot.
> Sooo, when adjusting to remove a lateral warp, you both > tighten and loosen spokes to attenuate the lateral warp, > while maintaining approximately the same lateral force, > thus keeping radial trueness.
> -- > Michael Press
With the rim radially true at good tension, the rim should also be laterally true. If it isn't thenyou have failed to make your interlace stable, you have bows in your spokes. Either spend three minutes in removing the bows and two minutes truing up or another half an hour chasing your tail.
> "Almost every displacement has a bias on the other axis, > and by observing the vector of the displacement and the relative > tensions of spokes in the area, it becomes more obvious which spokes > need the most taking up or > letting out, and how many spokes must be adjusted to correct any given > deviation."
> Chalo, would it be possible for you to go into this in any more > detail, or maybe give a hypothetical example? I think I understand > what you are saying, but it would be nice to have you "spoon-feed" it > to me "using crayons", if you will pardon the mixed metaphor.
No problem.
When there is a kick to the right or left, using the notch in the indicator can tell you whether that kick is accompanied by a radial bulge or a radial flat spot. If it's a bulge, you take spokes in, and if it's a flat spot you let them out, on the side that corrects the axial kick.
Radial corrections are usually made among pairs, fours, or sixes of spokes. If there is an accompanying lateral correction, incorporating that into the radial correction by adding a quarter turn here or loosening a half turn there can simplify overall truing.
Sometimes, the spoke adjustment that will best correct the radial displacement would worsen the lateral displacement (or vice versa) and you have to have to adjust three, four, five, or six spokes to accomplish the correction. For instance, a kick to the left accompanied by a radial bulge might mean you tighten two spokes on the right and the one on the left that falls in between. In doing that, you can correct both deviations at the same time.
My casual observation is that by correcting multiple deflections together, it is easier to maintain reasonably consistent spoke tension.
All the time I am making these adjustments, I pluck spokes to inform my decision whether to loosen or tighten and where. Any correction that brings spoke tension closer to the median is preferable to one that brings tensions further out of line from each other.
> In article > <bea8db0d-463a-4f10-812f-de049ff92...@y32g2000prd.googlegroups.com>, > Bill <retroguybi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Chalo wrote: "Almost every displacement has a bias on the other axis, > > and by observing the vector of the displacement and the relative > > tensions of spokes in the area, it becomes more obvious which spokes > > need the most taking up or > > letting out, and how many spokes must be adjusted to correct any given > > deviation."
> > Chalo, would it be possible for you to go into this in any more > > detail, or maybe give a hypothetical example? I think I understand > > what you are saying, but it would be nice to have you "spoon-feed" it > > to me "using crayons", if you will pardon the mixed metaphor.
> For the interim. Suppose the rim has a warp to the right. > you tighten spokes on the left. Result: warp is attenuated, > there is a radial flat spot.
> Sooo, when adjusting to remove a lateral warp, you both > tighten and loosen spokes to attenuate the lateral warp, > while maintaining approximately the same lateral force,
HOW goes the multiple spoke rule ? six adjacent spokes adjusted for radial true might not affect lateral trueness. my experinece was: somewhere in the middle torque area, where laeral trueness was evident, and where radial untrueness had formed, I would then move to radial trueing. The radial trueing, and my touring rims would get lumpy, would then alter lateral rule or not, bringing the experience of doind both at once AS NEEDED. As Kirk said; "It's experiential."
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