This is my first wheel build. Using 700C Velocity Deep V rims and Wheelsmith DB14 spokes.
I have been told by the folks at Velocity that they build their rear wheels with spoke tension of 110-120KgF.
Something doesn't seem right. If I take the left side spokes to 110KgF, I have to tighten the right side spokes to appox. 180KgF in order to get the dish right.
Does this sound right? Is 180KgF too much? If I take the right side spokes to 120, the left side seems loose at about 72 KgF.
I'm using a Park Tool Tension Meter to get these values. Am I missing something?
Thanks,
Greg
We build all of our wheels at the same spoke tension. Spoke tension is measured in Kilograms of Force (KGF). We build the front wheel between 105 – 115 KGF, and the rear between 110 – 120 KGF. I hope this helps, let me know if you have any further questions.
On Sun, 11 May 2008 18:39:40 -0700 (PDT), Gig Miller <thunderha...@yahoo.com> may have said:
>This is my first wheel build. Using 700C Velocity Deep V rims and >Wheelsmith DB14 spokes.
>I have been told by the folks at Velocity that they build their rear >wheels with spoke tension of 110-120KgF.
>Something doesn't seem right. If I take the left side spokes to >110KgF, I have to tighten the right side spokes to appox. 180KgF in >order to get the dish right.
>Does this sound right? Is 180KgF too much? If I take the right side >spokes to 120, the left side seems loose at about 72 KgF.
>I'm using a Park Tool Tension Meter to get these values. Am I missing >something?
Measure the tension of the drive side, not the non-drive, when building. The non-drive will end up at a lower tension, and that's normal. Tensioning the spokes beyond the rated maximum for the rim is not recommended.
The accuracy of the Park tool is subject to fudge factors relating to its handling of spoke thickness, if I recall correctly. Jobst Brandt can elaborate on that issue.
-- My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail. Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature. Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.
Gig Miller wrote: > This is my first wheel build. Using 700C Velocity Deep V rims and > Wheelsmith DB14 spokes.
> I have been told by the folks at Velocity that they build their rear > wheels with spoke tension of 110-120KgF.
> Something doesn't seem right. If I take the left side spokes to > 110KgF, I have to tighten the right side spokes to appox. 180KgF in > order to get the dish right.
> Does this sound right? Is 180KgF too much? If I take the right side > spokes to 120, the left side seems loose at about 72 KgF.
> I'm using a Park Tool Tension Meter to get these values. Am I missing > something?
> We build all of our wheels at the same spoke tension. Spoke tension > is measured in Kilograms of Force (KGF). We build the front wheel > between 105 – 115 KGF, and the rear between 110 – 120 KGF. I hope this > helps, let me know if you have any further questions.
No conflict. The specified tension is for the right side! The left ends at whatever is necessary to center the wheel with your hub spacing. -- Andrew Muzi <www.yellowjersey.org/> Open every day since 1 April, 1971 ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **
> The accuracy of the Park tool is subject to fudge factors relating to > its handling of spoke thickness, if I recall correctly. Jobst Brandt > can elaborate on that issue.
he sure can - his elaboration is to declare it irrelevant to spoke stiffness!
Gig Miller wrote: > This is my first wheel build. Using 700C Velocity Deep V rims and > Wheelsmith DB14 spokes.
> I have been told by the folks at Velocity that they build their rear > wheels with spoke tension of 110-120KgF.
> Something doesn't seem right. If I take the left side spokes to > 110KgF, I have to tighten the right side spokes to appox. 180KgF in > order to get the dish right.
that's too high. pay attention to the drive side spoke tension, not the non-drive side. [if you want to check the math on this, i believe it's now included in damon rinard's spokecalc.
> Does this sound right? Is 180KgF too much? If I take the right side > spokes to 120, the left side seems loose at about 72 KgF.
> I'm using a Park Tool Tension Meter to get these values. Am I missing > something?
tension differential is a function of hub spacing and therefore spoke angle differential.
> We build all of our wheels at the same spoke tension. Spoke tension > is measured in Kilograms of Force (KGF). We build the front wheel > between 105 115 KGF, and the rear between 110 120 KGF. I hope this > helps, let me know if you have any further questions.
72KgF as indicated by the Park Tension Meter feels way too loose. I question the precision, not accuracy of the Park meter. Anyone else ever run into this with this meter? Has anyone ever set up their own calibration apparatus and checked the values?
Greg
On May 11, 10:30 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> Gig Miller wrote: > > This is my first wheel build. Using 700C Velocity Deep V rims and > > Wheelsmith DB14 spokes.
> > I have been told by the folks at Velocity that they build their rear > > wheels with spoke tension of 110-120KgF.
> > Something doesn't seem right. If I take the left side spokes to > > 110KgF, I have to tighten the right side spokes to appox. 180KgF in > > order to get the dish right.
> > Does this sound right? Is 180KgF too much? If I take the right side > > spokes to 120, the left side seems loose at about 72 KgF.
> > I'm using a Park Tool Tension Meter to get these values. Am I missing > > something?
> > We build all of our wheels at the same spoke tension. Spoke tension > > is measured in Kilograms of Force (KGF). We build the front wheel > > between 105 – 115 KGF, and the rear between 110 – 120 KGF. I hope this > > helps, let me know if you have any further questions.
> No conflict. The specified tension is for the right side! The left ends > at whatever is necessary to center the wheel with your hub spacing. > -- > Andrew Muzi > <www.yellowjersey.org/> > Open every day since 1 April, 1971 > ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**
Gig Miller wrote: > 72KgF as indicated by the Park Tension Meter feels way too loose. I > question the precision, not accuracy of the Park meter. Anyone else > ever run into this with this meter? Has anyone ever set up their own > calibration apparatus and checked the values?
"feels way too loose"? if your judgment is better than the tensiometer, why are you bothering with it at all?
more importantly, do you understand why dished wheels have a tension differential? what are you hoping to achieve with higher tension?
> On May 11, 10:30 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >> Gig Miller wrote: >>> This is my first wheel build. Using 700C Velocity Deep V rims and >>> Wheelsmith DB14 spokes. >>> I have been told by the folks at Velocity that they build their rear >>> wheels with spoke tension of 110-120KgF. >>> Something doesn't seem right. If I take the left side spokes to >>> 110KgF, I have to tighten the right side spokes to appox. 180KgF in >>> order to get the dish right. >>> Does this sound right? Is 180KgF too much? If I take the right side >>> spokes to 120, the left side seems loose at about 72 KgF. >>> I'm using a Park Tool Tension Meter to get these values. Am I missing >>> something? >>> We build all of our wheels at the same spoke tension. Spoke tension >>> is measured in Kilograms of Force (KGF). We build the front wheel >>> between 105 115 KGF, and the rear between 110 120 KGF. I hope this >>> helps, let me know if you have any further questions. >> No conflict. The specified tension is for the right side! The left ends >> at whatever is necessary to center the wheel with your hub spacing. >> -- >> Andrew Muzi >> <www.yellowjersey.org/> >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971 >> ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**
Gig Miller wrote: > 72KgF as indicated by the Park Tension Meter feels way too loose. I > question the precision, not accuracy of the Park meter. Anyone else > ever run into this with this meter? Has anyone ever set up their own > calibration apparatus and checked the values?
What tension does it indicate on the drive side? It's not unusual for left side spokes to be half the tension of right side spokes.
> Gig Miller wrote: > > 72KgF as indicated by the Park Tension Meter feels way too loose. I > > question the precision, not accuracy of the Park meter. Anyone else > > ever run into this with this meter? Has anyone ever set up their own > > calibration apparatus and checked the values?
> "feels way too loose"? if your judgment is better than the tensiometer, > why are you bothering with it at all?
> more importantly, do you understand why dished wheels have a tension > differential? what are you hoping to achieve with higher tension?
> > Greg
> > On May 11, 10:30 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote: > >> Gig Miller wrote: > >>> This is my first wheel build. Using 700C Velocity Deep V rims and > >>> Wheelsmith DB14 spokes. > >>> I have been told by the folks at Velocity that they build their rear > >>> wheels with spoke tension of 110-120KgF. > >>> Something doesn't seem right. If I take the left side spokes to > >>> 110KgF, I have to tighten the right side spokes to appox. 180KgF in > >>> order to get the dish right. > >>> Does this sound right? Is 180KgF too much? If I take the right side > >>> spokes to 120, the left side seems loose at about 72 KgF. > >>> I'm using a Park Tool Tension Meter to get these values. Am I missing > >>> something? > >>> We build all of our wheels at the same spoke tension. Spoke tension > >>> is measured in Kilograms of Force (KGF). We build the front wheel > >>> between 105 115 KGF, and the rear between 110 120 KGF. I hope this > >>> helps, let me know if you have any further questions. > >> No conflict. The specified tension is for the right side! The left ends > >> at whatever is necessary to center the wheel with your hub spacing. > >> -- > >> Andrew Muzi > >> <www.yellowjersey.org/> > >> Open every day since 1 April, 1971 > >> ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**
> On May 13, 8:48 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >> Gig Miller wrote: >>> 72KgF as indicated by the Park Tension Meter feels way too loose. I >>> question the precision, not accuracy of the Park meter. Anyone else >>> ever run into this with this meter? Has anyone ever set up their own >>> calibration apparatus and checked the values? >> "feels way too loose"? if your judgment is better than the tensiometer, >> why are you bothering with it at all?
>> more importantly, do you understand why dished wheels have a tension >> differential? what are you hoping to achieve with higher tension?
>>> Greg >>> On May 11, 10:30 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>> Gig Miller wrote: >>>>> This is my first wheel build. Using 700C Velocity Deep V rims and >>>>> Wheelsmith DB14 spokes. >>>>> I have been told by the folks at Velocity that they build their rear >>>>> wheels with spoke tension of 110-120KgF. >>>>> Something doesn't seem right. If I take the left side spokes to >>>>> 110KgF, I have to tighten the right side spokes to appox. 180KgF in >>>>> order to get the dish right. >>>>> Does this sound right? Is 180KgF too much? If I take the right side >>>>> spokes to 120, the left side seems loose at about 72 KgF. >>>>> I'm using a Park Tool Tension Meter to get these values. Am I missing >>>>> something? >>>>> We build all of our wheels at the same spoke tension. Spoke tension >>>>> is measured in Kilograms of Force (KGF). We build the front wheel >>>>> between 105 115 KGF, and the rear between 110 120 KGF. I hope this >>>>> helps, let me know if you have any further questions. >>>> No conflict. The specified tension is for the right side! The left ends >>>> at whatever is necessary to center the wheel with your hub spacing. >>>> -- >>>> Andrew Muzi >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/> >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971 >>>> ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**
> Gig Miller wrote: > > Yes, I understand the reason for the tension differential. I am quite > > familiar with vector analysis.
> so what makes you judge these spokes to be "too loose"? if we > understand your concern, maybe we can address it.
> > On May 13, 8:48 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: > >> Gig Miller wrote: > >>> 72KgF as indicated by the Park Tension Meter feels way too loose. I > >>> question the precision, not accuracy of the Park meter. Anyone else > >>> ever run into this with this meter? Has anyone ever set up their own > >>> calibration apparatus and checked the values? > >> "feels way too loose"? if your judgment is better than the tensiometer, > >> why are you bothering with it at all?
> >> more importantly, do you understand why dished wheels have a tension > >> differential? what are you hoping to achieve with higher tension?
> >>> Greg > >>> On May 11, 10:30 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote: > >>>> Gig Miller wrote: > >>>>> This is my first wheel build. Using 700C Velocity Deep V rims and > >>>>> Wheelsmith DB14 spokes. > >>>>> I have been told by the folks at Velocity that they build their rear > >>>>> wheels with spoke tension of 110-120KgF. > >>>>> Something doesn't seem right. If I take the left side spokes to > >>>>> 110KgF, I have to tighten the right side spokes to appox. 180KgF in > >>>>> order to get the dish right. > >>>>> Does this sound right? Is 180KgF too much? If I take the right side > >>>>> spokes to 120, the left side seems loose at about 72 KgF. > >>>>> I'm using a Park Tool Tension Meter to get these values. Am I missing > >>>>> something? > >>>>> We build all of our wheels at the same spoke tension. Spoke tension > >>>>> is measured in Kilograms of Force (KGF). We build the front wheel > >>>>> between 105 115 KGF, and the rear between 110 120 KGF. I hope this > >>>>> helps, let me know if you have any further questions. > >>>> No conflict. The specified tension is for the right side! The left ends > >>>> at whatever is necessary to center the wheel with your hub spacing. > >>>> -- > >>>> Andrew Muzi > >>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/> > >>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971 > >>>> ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**
> 72KgF as indicated by the Park Tension Meter feels way too loose. I > question the precision, not accuracy of the Park meter. Anyone else > ever run into this with this meter? Has anyone ever set up their own > calibration apparatus and checked the values?
> Greg
> <SNIP> > The charts provided require you to identify the spoke guage involved > and look in that column to take the numeric value from the TM-1 and > equate it to the spoke tension. There is some friction in the system > that impacts the accuracy of the results. I take a couple squeeze & > release cycles to make sure the readings come out the same. > I use 220 pounds of weight hanging from a fixture I put together to > measure and "calibrate" the TM-1. The chart supplied with my TM-1 says > 21 = 99 kgf. > I look to see if 21 is the reading on the Sapim Race 14/15 DB spokes I > use. So far the TM-1 has been at 21 each time I have checked it. > I developed the fixture to test my Wheelsmith guage and it seems to > have held it's calibration for over 10 years. > I think Jobst helped develope the FSA tension guage. It is more > expensive, but it also has very little friction in the measuring system.
> On May 13, 9:01 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >> Gig Miller wrote: >>> Yes, I understand the reason for the tension differential. I am quite >>> familiar with vector analysis. >> so what makes you judge these spokes to be "too loose"? if we >> understand your concern, maybe we can address it.
>>> On May 13, 8:48 am, jim beam <spamvor...@bad.example.net> wrote: >>>> Gig Miller wrote: >>>>> 72KgF as indicated by the Park Tension Meter feels way too loose. I >>>>> question the precision, not accuracy of the Park meter. Anyone else >>>>> ever run into this with this meter? Has anyone ever set up their own >>>>> calibration apparatus and checked the values? >>>> "feels way too loose"? if your judgment is better than the tensiometer, >>>> why are you bothering with it at all? >>>> more importantly, do you understand why dished wheels have a tension >>>> differential? what are you hoping to achieve with higher tension? >>>>> Greg >>>>> On May 11, 10:30 pm, A Muzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote: >>>>>> Gig Miller wrote: >>>>>>> This is my first wheel build. Using 700C Velocity Deep V rims and >>>>>>> Wheelsmith DB14 spokes. >>>>>>> I have been told by the folks at Velocity that they build their rear >>>>>>> wheels with spoke tension of 110-120KgF. >>>>>>> Something doesn't seem right. If I take the left side spokes to >>>>>>> 110KgF, I have to tighten the right side spokes to appox. 180KgF in >>>>>>> order to get the dish right. >>>>>>> Does this sound right? Is 180KgF too much? If I take the right side >>>>>>> spokes to 120, the left side seems loose at about 72 KgF. >>>>>>> I'm using a Park Tool Tension Meter to get these values. Am I missing >>>>>>> something? >>>>>>> We build all of our wheels at the same spoke tension. Spoke tension >>>>>>> is measured in Kilograms of Force (KGF). We build the front wheel >>>>>>> between 105 115 KGF, and the rear between 110 120 KGF. I hope this >>>>>>> helps, let me know if you have any further questions. >>>>>> No conflict. The specified tension is for the right side! The left ends >>>>>> at whatever is necessary to center the wheel with your hub spacing. >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Andrew Muzi >>>>>> <www.yellowjersey.org/> >>>>>> Open every day since 1 April, 1971 >>>>>> ** Posted fromhttp://www.teranews.com**
daveornee wrote: > Gig Miller Wrote: >> 72KgF as indicated by the Park Tension Meter feels way too loose. I >> question the precision, not accuracy of the Park meter. Anyone else >> ever run into this with this meter? Has anyone ever set up their own >> calibration apparatus and checked the values?
>> Greg
>> <SNIP> >> The charts provided require you to identify the spoke guage involved >> and look in that column to take the numeric value from the TM-1 and >> equate it to the spoke tension. There is some friction in the system >> that impacts the accuracy of the results. I take a couple squeeze & >> release cycles to make sure the readings come out the same. >> I use 220 pounds of weight hanging from a fixture I put together to >> measure and "calibrate" the TM-1. The chart supplied with my TM-1 says >> 21 = 99 kgf. >> I look to see if 21 is the reading on the Sapim Race 14/15 DB spokes I >> use. So far the TM-1 has been at 21 each time I have checked it. >> I developed the fixture to test my Wheelsmith guage and it seems to >> have held it's calibration for over 10 years. >> I think Jobst helped develope the FSA tension guage. It is more >> expensive, but it also has very little friction in the measuring system.
the friction, while not ideal, doesn't matter that much if it's consistent and accounted for in calibration. consistency is the vital thing.
On May 13, 4:32 am, Gig Miller <thunderha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> 72KgF as indicated by the Park Tension Meter feels way too loose. I > question the precision, not accuracy of the Park meter. Anyone else > ever run into this with this meter? Has anyone ever set up their own > calibration apparatus and checked the values?
The Park meter is sensitive to friction, and if this varies you will get inaccurate readings. I had one with a pivot that would keep coming loose. After locktiting it and lubing it, the readings changed a lot. Apparently each unit is crudely calibrated in an unlubricated state, and the friction (at least on mine) was enough to make a considerable difference.
I'd recommend checking with another meter to see if they are close. If they aren't, Park will happily recalibrate it for a small fee.
jim beam wrote: > Gig Miller wrote: >> 72KgF as indicated by the Park Tension Meter feels way too loose. I >> question the precision, not accuracy of the Park meter. Anyone else >> ever run into this with this meter? Has anyone ever set up their own >> calibration apparatus and checked the values?
> "feels way too loose"? if your judgment is better than the tensiometer, > why are you bothering with it at all?
I got on a new set of bathroom scales at the weekend. The put me at 55kg, given I'm 6" tall, a fat bastard, with no muscle tone, my "gut feeling" is they might be a bit out.
However, for you weight weenies, I can offer these scales at a reduced price of 100 USD, delivery excluded, I can guarantee they'll take 20kgs of your weight, 30 at a push. The cheapest, quickest, weight loss you'll ever experience.
> I take a couple squeeze & release cycles to make sure the readings come > out the same.
+1
If I do some crude 2-out-of-3 voting on the readings I'm sure there are other factors that will be far more influential to the final quality and characteristics of the wheel than measurement errors.
Gig Miller wrote: > Based on tone and feel and comparing them to other wheels of similar > materials. My concern is that the Park Tension Meter is not accurate.
This possibility has been raised before. When attempts were made to calibrate the Park tool using actual spoke deflections and vector analysis, it was concluded that vector theory was flawed rather than the tool.
In article <3c93f945-83ea-4aa0-a1eb-f7f94d1c9...@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, Gig Miller <thunderha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> This is my first wheel build. Using 700C Velocity Deep V rims and > Wheelsmith DB14 spokes.
> I have been told by the folks at Velocity that they build their rear > wheels with spoke tension of 110-120KgF.
> Something doesn't seem right. If I take the left side spokes to > 110KgF, I have to tighten the right side spokes to appox. 180KgF in > order to get the dish right.
> Does this sound right? Is 180KgF too much? If I take the right side > spokes to 120, the left side seems loose at about 72 KgF.
> I'm using a Park Tool Tension Meter to get these values. Am I missing > something?
Welcome to the dilemma of dished wheels. In order to make room for the cogs, the right side flange is offset towards the center plane of the wheel. That results in the left side spokes being much more slack.
The measurement they sent you is for the drive (right) side. The non-drive (left) side is left to its own devices. If you've got 120 KgF on the right and 72 KgF on the left, that's as good as it gets with 130 mm spacing and an 8/9/10 speed cassette. I've seen 9 and 10 speed wheels where the differential is 120/40.
7 speed wheels should have been 130 mm spacing and 8/9/10 should have been 135 at a minimum. 140 would be better. But because we have to have fat aluminum/CF/unobtanium chain stays that are stupidly short, that's not feasible. My 7 speed bike with 135 mm spacing is nearly zero dish and has been a trouble free wheel since 1996, with virtually even spoke tension just like a front wheel.
> In article > <3c93f945-83ea-4aa0-a1eb-f7f94d1c9...@d1g2000hsg.googlegroups.com>, > Gig Miller <thunderha...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> > This is my first wheel build. Using 700C Velocity Deep V rims and > > Wheelsmith DB14 spokes.
> > I have been told by the folks at Velocity that they build their rear > > wheels with spoke tension of 110-120KgF.
> > Something doesn't seem right. If I take the left side spokes to > > 110KgF, I have to tighten the right side spokes to appox. 180KgF in > > order to get the dish right.
> > Does this sound right? Is 180KgF too much? If I take the right side > > spokes to 120, the left side seems loose at about 72 KgF.
> > I'm using a Park Tool Tension Meter to get these values. Am I missing > > something?
> Welcome to the dilemma of dished wheels. In order to make room for the > cogs, the right side flange is offset towards the center plane of the > wheel. That results in the left side spokes being much more slack.
> The measurement they sent you is for the drive (right) side. The > non-drive (left) side is left to its own devices. If you've got 120 KgF > on the right and 72 KgF on the left, that's as good as it gets with 130 > mm spacing and an 8/9/10 speed cassette. I've seen 9 and 10 speed > wheels where the differential is 120/40.
> 7 speed wheels should have been 130 mm spacing and 8/9/10 should have > been 135 at a minimum. 140 would be better. But because we have to have > fat aluminum/CF/unobtanium chain stays that are stupidly short, that's > not feasible. My 7 speed bike with 135 mm spacing is nearly zero dish > and has been a trouble free wheel since 1996, with virtually even spoke > tension just like a front wheel.
Another option is the Aerohead off-center rim -- although he should be able to build a strong wheel with good tension on a Deep V without spoke hole cracking. It sounds like the tensiometer might be off, but maybe not.
Another approach (not an efficient one) is to go with the as-measured 115-120kgf (right) and see if the wheel stays true. If not, then wind it up a little more until it does. If the spoke holes start to crack, then we know that the linseed oil crowd is right and that the motor oil crowd is wrong -- for that rim at least. -- Jay Beattie.
> Welcome to the dilemma of dished wheels. ...If you've got 120 KgF on the > right and 72 KgF on the left, that's as good as it gets.
I've toyed with the idea of lacing a 32H hub to a 24H rim using only every 2nd spoke hole on the NDS and every hole on the DS. Assuming I'd be able to find a 32H rim where all the spoke holes are drilled dead center and a hub geometry that'd give around 50% spoke tension for a traditional lace that'd be spot on.
There's a guy on another forum who's been looking high and low for a 27H rim in order to be able to do the same thing using a 36H hub.
Following the same general theory it should be possible to build something nice with a 48H hub and a 36H rim as well.
> This is my first wheel build. Using 700C Velocity Deep V rims and > Wheelsmith DB14 spokes.
> I have been told by the folks at Velocity that they build their rear > wheels with spoke tension of 110-120KgF.
> Something doesn't seem right. If I take the left side spokes to > 110KgF, I have to tighten the right side spokes to appox. 180KgF in > order to get the dish right.
> Does this sound right? Is 180KgF too much? If I take the right side > spokes to 120, the left side seems loose at about 72 KgF.
> I'm using a Park Tool Tension Meter to get these values. Am I missing > something?
> Thanks,
> Greg
> We build all of our wheels at the same spoke tension. Spoke tension > is measured in Kilograms of Force (KGF). We build the front wheel > between 105 – 115 KGF, and the rear between 110 – 120 KGF. I hope this > helps, let me know if you have any further questions.
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