Been working on a fanny pack for moments when a full bug out bag isn't really socially acceptable. But, would be nice to have some equipment along. Church picnic comes to mind.
At the moment, here's my fanny pack contents. Pouches 1 and 2 are on the left, puch 3 is on the right. Space 4 on the right is the 500 ml water bottle that comes with. I'm asking for ideas.
1 - very small pouch. Box of matches, 2 trioxane.
2 - small pouch. Two bottles of Boost brand diet drink, plastic bottle, screw cap Short light (three AAA cells) box of matches
Main pouch Bug spray 2 spritzers of sunscreen and bugspray combo foling knife 2 ponchos whistle whistle / compass gadget with matches 2 packets of 50 foot parachute cord 1 portable toilet paper
3 - pouch one foil blanket 1 tube (about 1..5 ounces) sunscreen First aid kit (Tylenol, antibiotic with pain control, about 10 bandaids, 2 benzalkonium chloride wipes, 1 pair tweezers) Box of matches
-- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
<cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Been working on a fanny pack for moments when a full bug out > bag isn't really socially acceptable. But, would be nice to > have some equipment along. Church picnic comes to mind.
> At the moment, here's my fanny pack contents. Pouches 1 and > 2 are on the left, puch 3 is on the right. Space 4 on the > right is the 500 ml water bottle that comes with. I'm > asking for ideas.
> 1 - very small pouch. > Box of matches, 2 trioxane.
> 2 - small pouch. > Two bottles of Boost brand diet drink, plastic bottle, screw > cap > Short light (three AAA cells) > box of matches
> Main pouch > Bug spray > 2 spritzers of sunscreen and bugspray combo > foling knife > 2 ponchos > whistle > whistle / compass gadget with matches > 2 packets of 50 foot parachute cord > 1 portable toilet paper
> 3 - pouch > one foil blanket > 1 tube (about 1..5 ounces) sunscreen > First aid kit (Tylenol, antibiotic with pain control, about > 10 bandaids, 2 benzalkonium chloride wipes, 1 pair tweezers) > Box of matches
> -- > Christopher A. Young > Learn more about Jesus > www.lds.org > .
I would lose the boxes of matches & have instead a sealed medicine bottle w/ strike-anywhere matches (put in head-first) & a scrap of #200 sandpaper. One should be enough for a day pack. Slim down on the sunscreen - again, this is a day pack. Add coupla 2-4" gauze squares & a roll of adhesive/surgical tape. Ibuprofen if anyone's subject to allergic reactions to stinging insects. You can get an Exacto knife in a case much like a fountain pen; useful for minor repairs & surgery. Mebbe coupla granola bars. ("Diet energy drink" strikes me as perhaps an oxymoron; your caloric intake/expenditure as opposed to possible weight gain in a single day is a minimal-to-nonexistent issue.)
<cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Been working on a fanny pack
The thread topic says "day trip." For me, a day trip means something in the range of on-trail at dawn, back to the car and home before dusk.
So lots of the stuff you have in your list is way overkill.
I usually carry: - food for the day - water for the day (which I usually over do as I'm a thirsty guy) - map (or maps depending) - bug spray
I don't bother with the other stuff you mentioned. For example, when hiking I wear my sun-hat so I don't feel the need for sun block on my face.
And if it's a place I'm not familiar with, or that the trail isn't well marked, I will add the GPS unit. I may or may not take the camera, binoculars, etc., depending on the scenery I'm expecting.
I find fanny packs annoying because they tend to bounce around and get off centre and throw off my stride. So I have a tiny little backpack for day trips. I can get a two litre water bottle in there, a couple sandwiches, my water-bladder in an outside pouch and there's room for the maps, GPS, and bug spray. And then it's full. If I'm taking the camera I take a bigger pack that has room for it and some more stuff. Socks
On Oct 25, 5:40 am, pmh <pmhil...@verizon.net> wrote:
> I would lose the boxes of matches & have instead a sealed medicine > bottle w/ strike-anywhere matches
Better yet, get some storm-proof matches. Not strike anywhere but they will work in all sorts of nasty conditions, exactly when you are most likely to need a fire. Add a bit of some sort of fire starter such as cotton balls soaked with vasoline or some sort of paraffin soaked burnable.
> Ibuprofen if anyone's subject to allergic reactions to stinging insects
What? Ibuprofen does not deal with the real danger of such reactions which is anaphylaxis. If anyone has such an allergy you best carry epi pens - and know how to use them. And get a Sawyer extractor which can extract some of the venom if used quickly enough.
> You can get an Exacto knife in > a case much like a fountain pen; useful for minor repairs & surgery.
Why bother? Just get one of the very useful multi-tools now available. They have knife blades, screwdrivers (often different sizes, blade and Phillips), sometimes even a small saw. I used to carry a pocket knife but find that those are so much more useful that that's what I carry now.
And of course don't forget the most important equipment of all: a well- stocked and functioning brain.
>> I would lose the boxes of matches & have instead a sealed medicine >> bottle w/ strike-anywhere matches
>.Better yet, get some storm-proof matches. Not strike anywhere but >they will work in all sorts of nasty conditions, exactly when you are >most likely to need a fire. Add a bit of some sort of fire starter >such as cotton balls soaked with vasoline or some sort of paraffin >soaked burnable.
> Ibuprofen if anyone's subject to allergic reactions to stinging insects >What? Ibuprofen does not deal with the real danger of such reactions >which is anaphylaxis. If anyone has such an allergy you best carry >epi pens - and know how to use them. And get a Sawyer extractor which >can extract some of the venom if used quickly enough.
- I'll second the Sawyer extractor kit. I have used it far more times than my first aid kit, since my wife is prone to reactions (relatively minor) from insect bites. The kit also helps on quickly attended mosquito bites. But if you carry one around a group of other people, be prepared to "share".
A much smaller alternative is a short piece of clear, soft plastic tubing that you can press on the insect bite and use suction on the other end.
On 2009-10-25, hlill...@juno.com <hlill...@juno.com> wrote:
> On Oct 25, 5:40 am, pmh <pmhil...@verizon.net> wrote: >> Ibuprofen if anyone's subject to allergic reactions to stinging insects
> What? Ibuprofen does not deal with the real danger of such reactions > which is anaphylaxis. If anyone has such an allergy you best carry > epi pens - and know how to use them. And get a Sawyer extractor which > can extract some of the venom if used quickly enough.
If you don't have access to an epipen, a possible substitute is Primatene Mist. That's inhaled epinephrine, and you can buy it over-the-counter in America.
It's a passable substitute for albuterol, too, if an asthmatic forgets to bring along their rescue inhaler. And Primatene only weighs a couple of ounces, has a reasonable shelf life, and costs about $25.
I've heard some people claim it's actually better than an epipen for anaphylactic shock, but I don't even play a doctor on the Internet so I have no opinion on that claim at all ...
I would lose the boxes of matches & have instead a sealed medicine bottle w/ strike-anywhere matches (put in head-first) & a scrap of #200 sandpaper. One should be enough for a day pack.
CY: Two box of matches, plus the matches in the whistle might be a bit much. I normally carry a lighter, but I've had those leak out the gas. One time the flint broke off. I'd tried the lighter earlier that day. Went to the park, and the lighter chose that moment to go. I had a book of matches in the truck, which saved the day.
Slim down on the sunscreen - again, this is a day pack.
CY: Right, sunscreen x 3 is a bit much.
Add coupla 2-4" gauze squares &
CY: Right, I'd forgot gauze. Oh, maybe not. I've got two little gauze in my first aid box. Along with the bandaids, and triple antibiotic.
a roll of adhesive/surgical tape.
CY: Yes, tape is good for repairs. I was deciding between surgical and electrical. Sounds like surgical is the way to go.
Ibuprofen if anyone's subject to allergic reactions to stinging insects.
CY: Would that be Benadryl?
You can get an Exacto knife in a case much like a fountain pen; useful for minor repairs & surgery.
CY: For that, I'd be thinking a utility knife with break off blades.
Mebbe coupla granola bars. ("Diet energy drink" strikes me as perhaps an oxymoron; your caloric intake/expenditure as opposed to possible weight gain in a single day is a minimal-to-nonexistent issue.)
CY: The food is a good idea. The diet drinks, they calm my hunger for a couple hours. Not every day food, of course, but handy in emergency. Thanks for some good ideas.
That's the goal, is to be back to the car by night fall, and head for home. I havn't tried the pack, so it may very well be off center, and miserable, and so on. Your other ideas are good, more food and water.
-- Christopher A. Young Learn more about Jesus www.lds.org .
"Puppet_Sock" <puppet_s...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
<cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote: > Been working on a fanny pack
The thread topic says "day trip." For me, a day trip means something in the range of on-trail at dawn, back to the car and home before dusk.
So lots of the stuff you have in your list is way overkill.
I usually carry: - food for the day - water for the day (which I usually over do as I'm a thirsty guy) - map (or maps depending) - bug spray
I don't bother with the other stuff you mentioned. For example, when hiking I wear my sun-hat so I don't feel the need for sun block on my face.
And if it's a place I'm not familiar with, or that the trail isn't well marked, I will add the GPS unit. I may or may not take the camera, binoculars, etc., depending on the scenery I'm expecting.
I find fanny packs annoying because they tend to bounce around and get off centre and throw off my stride. So I have a tiny little backpack for day trips. I can get a two litre water bottle in there, a couple sandwiches, my water-bladder in an outside pouch and there's room for the maps, GPS, and bug spray. And then it's full. If I'm taking the camera I take a bigger pack that has room for it and some more stuff. Socks
If you don't have access to an epipen, a possible substitute is Primatene Mist. That's inhaled epinephrine, and you can buy it over-the-counter in America.
It's a passable substitute for albuterol, too, if an asthmatic forgets to bring along their rescue inhaler. And Primatene only weighs a couple of ounces, has a reasonable shelf life, and costs about $25.
I've heard some people claim it's actually better than an epipen for anaphylactic shock, but I don't even play a doctor on the Internet so I have no opinion on that claim at all ...
If you don't have access to an epipen, a possible substitute is Primatene Mist. That's inhaled epinephrine, and you can buy it over-the-counter in America.
It's a passable substitute for albuterol, too, if an asthmatic forgets to bring along their rescue inhaler. And Primatene only weighs a couple of ounces, has a reasonable shelf life, and costs about $25.
I've heard some people claim it's actually better than an epipen for anaphylactic shock, but I don't even play a doctor on the Internet so I have no opinion on that claim at all ...
> You can get an Exacto knife in > a case much like a fountain pen; useful for minor repairs & > surgery.
> >CY: For that, I'd be thinking a utility knife with break off > >blades.
That would be a handy item. Someone above mentioned the multi-tool (Leatherman, et. al.) which I view askance. They're bulky, heavy, all but the best [expensive] ones have questionable machining of the various tools, and their multi-usage would compromise sanitation whenever minor surgery is called for. And of the three I own, none fits the hand comfortably. I mention the Exacto because its pen-like case would aid sanitation. The small utility knife w/ break off blades would be equivalent.
On Oct 26, 4:46 am, pmh <pmhil...@verizon.net> wrote:
> That would be a handy item.Leatherman, et. al.) which I view askance. > They're bulky, heavy, all > but the best [expensive] ones have questionable machining of the > various tools,
Clearly the multitool is not the ideal tool for most any job. However if you get a decent one it will do a lot of jobs, albeit not as conveniently as your full tool box at home.
When I go to the backcountry I expect that some things will be a bit inconvenient. For me it's worth carrying the extra weight of a multitool. I find it the best compromise between weight, bulk, and ability to get the job done.
> and their multi-usage would compromise sanitation > whenever minor surgery is called for.
That can be solved with a bit of iodine-Povidone (Betadyne being the most commonly recognized trademark of the stuff).
> And of the three I own, none > fits the hand comfortably. I mention the Exacto because its pen-like > case would aid sanitation. The small utility knife w/ break off blades > would be equivalent.
If you're only going to need a small knife, that would be a good solution (though personally this former farm boy feels naked without a real knife along). However if you need to tighten a bolt or screw, file a rough edge or do something similar, I think the multitool is the way to go in the backcountry.
> Neat stuff! Just like you say, inhalable epinephrine.
Yeah, it's been around for a long time.
If somebody invented it today, it would prolly require a prescription and cost $100 per cannister. :(
One heads-up: the cannister holds a bazillion doses, but about every 20 actuations it's a good idea to wash the mouthpiece in very hot water and then blow it out with canned air or a compressor. Otherwise, the darn thing clogs and delivers less than a full dose.
(I know about the stuff because I have exercise-induced asthma, and a combination of Primatene and Nasalcrom snorted down into my lungs is a cheap and easy way to keep my lungs happy. ["Nasalcrom" is a OTC cromolyn sodium, the same stuff you find in the prescription Intal inhalers. It's a mast cell stabilizer.] )
Hey Pete, I did my first weekend trip to Maine 2 weekends ago.
>On Oct 24, 9:39=A0pm, "Stormin Mormon" ><cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Been working on a fanny pack for moments when a full bug out >> bag isn't really socially acceptable. But, would be nice to >> have some equipment along. Church picnic comes to mind.
Socially acceptable?
>> one foil blanket
OK, so spend a summer night out with just what you have in this pack.
>PMH Reg. Me. Guide
Nice state you have there, hope to fly around again one of these days.
In article <f9f7c22c-9935-47ad-87ed-98c6e5375...@e18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com>,
Puppet_Sock <puppet_s...@hotmail.com> wrote: >On Oct 24, 9:39=A0pm, "Stormin Mormon" ><cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> Been working on a fanny pack
>I find fanny packs annoying because they tend to >bounce around and get off centre and throw off my >stride. So I have a tiny little backpack for day trips. >I can get a two litre water bottle in there, a couple >sandwiches, my water-bladder in an outside pouch >and there's room for the maps, GPS, and bug spray. >And then it's full. If I'm taking the camera I take a >bigger pack that has room for it and some more
Fanny packs started for carrying things for downhill skiers.
I find them convenient on climbs when I get to a squeeze chimney. You can turn them on your side and still get inside. A full pack has to be taken off, not dropped, then hauled. Taking one up Charlotte Dome was better than a day pack.
My overnight Thule pack was side pockets which can double not only as a short duration fanny pack but can strip for replacement pack parts which I had to do for a recent Marbles trip. Integration is the trick.
>>What? Ibuprofen does not deal with the real danger of such reactions >>which is anaphylaxis. If anyone has such an allergy you best carry >>epi pens - and know how to use them. And get a Sawyer extractor which >>can extract some of the venom if used quickly enough.
I had stinging insects on an approach a few years back. The recommended treatment at the time was ice and Benadryl.
>I'll second the Sawyer extractor kit. I have used it far more times than my >first aid kit, since my wife is prone to reactions (relatively minor) from >insect bites. The kit also helps on quickly attended mosquito bites. But >if you carry one around a group of other people, be prepared to "share".
Talk to your physician and be up to date on personal med problems.
I'm not so certain on an extractor kit for multiple bee stings. Waste of time.
>> You can get an Exacto knife in >> a case much like a fountain pen; useful for minor repairs & >> surgery.
Are you going to cut an airway?
In article <2894cf30-37d5-4510-80e2-bb5a2f95b...@p9g2000vbl.googlegroups.com>,
pmh <pmhil...@verizon.net> wrote: >On Oct 26, 8:31=A0am, "Stormin Mormon" ><cayoung61**spambloc...@hotmail.com> wrote: >> >CY: For that, I'd be thinking a utility knife with break off blades.
>That would be a handy item. Someone above mentioned the multi-tool >(Leatherman, et. al.) which I view askance. They're bulky, heavy, all >but the best [expensive] ones have questionable machining of the >various tools, and their multi-usage would compromise sanitation >whenever minor surgery is called for. And of the three I own, none >fits the hand comfortably. I mention the Exacto because its pen-like >case would aid sanitation. The small utility knife w/ break off blades >would be equivalent.
It depends what you are carrying. If you have a preceived notion of say walking, then you are ignoring kayakers, skiers, and other forms of rec. My Gerber was handy in kayak repairs. Wenger made a Swiss Army Knife for bikes, and I got an extra hex key wrench which I shaved down to work on my Ramer bindings. Multitools are no substitute for real tool boxes like those found in the various research field camps I visit. But I will say that I am looking forward once again to visiting the Victorinox factory in December.
On Oct 30, 10:12 am, eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:
> Fanny packs started for carrying things for downhill skiers.
> I find them convenient on climbs when I get to a squeeze chimney. > You can turn them on your side and still get inside.
And handy for that reason as well for the downhill skiers. You can just pull them around to the front when getting on the lift. Most ski areas require that regular backpacks be removed before boarding the lift.
In article <908f0514-2ac6-44b6-9b71-439d555df...@t11g2000prh.googlegroups.com>,
hlill...@juno.com <hlill...@juno.com> wrote: >On Oct 30, 10:12=A0am, eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote: >> Fanny packs started for carrying things for downhill skiers. >> I find them convenient on climbs when I get to a squeeze chimney. >> You can turn them on your side and still get inside.
>And handy for that reason as well for the downhill skiers. You can >just pull them around to the front when getting on the lift. Most ski >areas require that regular backpacks be removed before boarding the >lift.
Naw, most downhill skiers are wimps when it comes to any weight on their backs. Slipping an arm in and out of a shoulder strap isn't rocket science.
Lift operators don't want the center of human mass moved forward.
>>>What? Ibuprofen does not deal with the real danger of such reactions >>>which is anaphylaxis. If anyone has such an allergy you best carry >>>epi pens - and know how to use them. And get a Sawyer extractor which >>>can extract some of the venom if used quickly enough.
> I had stinging insects on an approach a few years back. > The recommended treatment at the time was ice and Benadryl.
>>I'll second the Sawyer extractor kit. I have used it far more times than >>my >>first aid kit, since my wife is prone to reactions (relatively minor) from >>insect bites. The kit also helps on quickly attended mosquito bites. But >>if you carry one around a group of other people, be prepared to "share".
> Talk to your physician and be up to date on personal med problems.
> I'm not so certain on an extractor kit for multiple bee stings. > Waste of time.
For bee stings, better than nothing. However, it is quite useful to know how to remove bee barbs without squeezing the sack.
In article <4aeb82ef$1@darkstar>, eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:
> Naw, most downhill skiers are wimps when it comes to any weight on their > backs. Slipping an arm in and out of a shoulder strap isn't rocket science.
> Lift operators don't want the center of human mass moved forward.
actually that isn't the reason, it is mostly they don't want the Backpack getting hung up in the Chair, while the skier is trying to get off at the Top... Having been an Operator in a previous life, at Multiple Areas, and for multiple Outfits, this was ALWAYS the reason given for that Policy..... If something extra was needed to be carried to the top of the lift, the lift was stopped and the extra stuff was places nd strapped in on a separate chair, and removed from that chair at the top, while the lift was again stopped. This included dealing with stuff for the Professional and Volunteer Ski Patrol, of which I also did (Professional) in another one of my other previous lives.
-- Bruce in alaska add <path> after <fast> to reply
On Oct 31, 11:39 am, Bruce in alaska <f...@btpost.net> wrote:
> > Lift operators don't want the center of human mass moved forward.
> actually that isn't the reason, it is mostly they don't want the > Backpack getting hung up in the Chair, while the skier is trying to get > off at the Top...
Which is an advantage of the fanny pack. Twisting it around to the front eliminates that problem.
>Having been an Operator in a previous life, at Multiple > Areas, and for multiple Outfits, this was ALWAYS the reason given for > that Policy..... If something extra was needed to be carried to the top > of the lift, the lift was stopped and the extra stuff was places nd > strapped in on a separate chair, and removed from that chair at the top, > while the lift was again stopped. This included dealing with stuff for > the Professional and Volunteer Ski Patrol, of which I also did > (Professional) in another one of my other previous lives.
Interesting. That has changed, at least at the Timberline Lodge area on Mount Hood. SAR people regularly put their backpacks (even rather large packs) on their front instead of their backs and then board and exit the lift in the usual manner. They don't stop the lift unless there is a problem. Of course this does move the center of mass forward but you can adapt to that in short order.
For larger stuff like litters they do stop the lift though, usually to hang it below a chair.
"hlill...@juno.com" <hlill...@juno.com> wrote: > On Oct 31, 11:39 am, Bruce in alaska <f...@btpost.net> wrote:
> > > Lift operators don't want the center of human mass moved forward.
> > actually that isn't the reason, it is mostly they don't want the > > Backpack getting hung up in the Chair, while the skier is trying to get > > off at the Top...
> Which is an advantage of the fanny pack. Twisting it around to the > front eliminates that problem.
> >Having been an Operator in a previous life, at Multiple > > Areas, and for multiple Outfits, this was ALWAYS the reason given for > > that Policy..... If something extra was needed to be carried to the top > > of the lift, the lift was stopped and the extra stuff was places nd > > strapped in on a separate chair, and removed from that chair at the top, > > while the lift was again stopped. This included dealing with stuff for > > the Professional and Volunteer Ski Patrol, of which I also did > > (Professional) in another one of my other previous lives.
> Interesting. That has changed, at least at the Timberline Lodge area > on Mount Hood. SAR people regularly put their backpacks (even rather > large packs) on their front instead of their backs and then board and > exit the lift in the usual manner. They don't stop the lift unless > there is a problem. Of course this does move the center of mass > forward but you can adapt to that in short order.
> For larger stuff like litters they do stop the lift though, usually to > hang it below a chair.
Hal,
Like I stated this information was from "Previous Lives", back when I was a Kid. (18 - 25 years old) and decades (many) ago, so things may be different now, and it could be that skiers have gotten "less stupid" (not likely) or Lift Operators may have changed their Policies. (Could happen) It was the Policy, back then at every place I worked, and I worked in 6 States, and two Countries, over that period in my life.... before I grew up..... and got married, and responsible..... gave up High Altitude Mountain Climbing then as well.....
-- Bruce in alaska add <path> after <fast> to reply
> In article > <dbcdcbdc-54c9-4a2a-b46a-101e41812...@13g2000prl.googlegroups.com>,
> "hlill...@juno.com" <hlill...@juno.com> wrote: > > On Oct 31, 11:39 am, Bruce in alaska <f...@btpost.net> wrote:
> > > > Lift operators don't want the center of human mass moved forward.
> > > actually that isn't the reason, it is mostly they don't want the > > > Backpack getting hung up in the Chair, while the skier is trying to get > > > off at the Top...
> > Which is an advantage of the fanny pack. Twisting it around to the > > front eliminates that problem.
> > >Having been an Operator in a previous life, at Multiple > > > Areas, and for multiple Outfits, this was ALWAYS the reason given for > > > that Policy..... If something extra was needed to be carried to the top > > > of the lift, the lift was stopped and the extra stuff was places nd > > > strapped in on a separate chair, and removed from that chair at the top, > > > while the lift was again stopped. This included dealing with stuff for > > > the Professional and Volunteer Ski Patrol, of which I also did > > > (Professional) in another one of my other previous lives.
> > Interesting. That has changed, at least at the Timberline Lodge area > > on Mount Hood. SAR people regularly put their backpacks (even rather > > large packs) on their front instead of their backs and then board and > > exit the lift in the usual manner. They don't stop the lift unless > > there is a problem. Of course this does move the center of mass > > forward but you can adapt to that in short order.
> > For larger stuff like litters they do stop the lift though, usually to > > hang it below a chair.
> Hal,
> Like I stated this information was from "Previous Lives", back when I > was a Kid. (18 - 25 years old) and decades (many) ago, so things may be > different now, and it could be that skiers have gotten "less stupid" > (not likely)
Possible. The stupidest ones have migrated to snowboards. (Now watch the firestorm that stirs up)
> or Lift Operators may have changed their Policies. (Could > happen) It was the Policy, back then at every place I worked, and I > worked in 6 States, and two Countries, over that period in my life....
My experience with taking packs on lifts is with exactly two ski areas so things may well be different at other places.
> before I grew up..... and got married, and responsible..... gave up High > Altitude Mountain Climbing then as well.....
"Of course the Man was wild too. He was dreadfully wild. He didn't even begin to be tame till he met the Woman." (from "The Cat that Walked by Himself" by Kipling)
In article <bad878af-0ac8-40c7-ac3f-c8e097a3b...@g22g2000prf.googlegroups.com>,
hlill...@juno.com <hlill...@juno.com> wrote: >On Nov 1, 11:05=A0am, Bruce in alaska <f...@btpost.net> wrote: >> > >Having been an Operator in a previous life, ... >> so things may be different now, and it could be that skiers have gotten >> "less stupid" (not likely)
>Possible. The stupidest ones have migrated to snowboards. (Now watch >the firestorm that stirs up)
Summer bias in the group. They are impressionable young stupid men. Barely a spark. Try mountain bikes, many ride both. They are just trying to make a name for themselves.
>My experience with taking packs on lifts is with exactly two ski areas >so things may well be different at other places.
It's part of the way of life in Europe.
>> before I grew up..... and got married, and responsible..... gave up High
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