It's getting cold, and I'm looking for a natural fiber jacket/sweater for
the winter.  I live in upstate NY, it gets down to 0F fairly often in the
winter, sometimes even -10F, although I don't usually go out in that.  I
ride my bike around town all winter, but not fast, so I don't get sweaty.

I have a windbreaker jacket shell, so I could wear something that's
wind-permeable but fluffy and insulating under the shell.  I have a big
wool sweater, and that's pretty warm with the windbreaker over it, but
I don't think it would be warm enough at 0F.  

I wonder what would be really warm?  I don't go winter camping, I
just thought people in this newsg. might know.

Laura

When I lived in upstate New York, I wore several all-wool jerseys and
two or three pairs of wool tights.  Gets really cold or windy, wear
thin, tight-woven nylon slacks over the tights.   (Since it can't rain
when it's that cold, cotton will do.)  

I wore a spin-silk turtleneck under the jerseys.

I had a pair of hand-knit alpaca tights that I could wear only on the
coldest days of January.  I can wear them in rather mild weather now;
I suspect that it isn't so much that they have worn thin as that my
metabolism has slowed down.

The bread-bag trick really does work, but you need a fresh pair of
bags for every trip, and two pairs if you get off -- it's seldom
possible to put a used bread bag back on again.  Even a bikie doesn't
eat that much bread!  And I don't think that clipless cleats would cut
their own hole in the bag the way slot cleats did.  (I used wool
gaiters to hold the bags in place.)  

Toe-clip covers are also a good idea, if you can find them.  (And if
you have toe clips.)  I had booties, but when I wore them I had to
leave the Velcro undone because the designer thought that the wearer
would have atrophied calves -- they were too tight through the ankles
even without any warm clothing on.  

Pay attention to your ankles.  They won't ever feel cold, but if
warmly insulated they won't pre-chill the blood you are sending to
your toes.  

Climb hills as slowly as you can -- make that respite from the wind
last!    

Joy Beeson
--
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://roughsewing.home.comcast.net/ -- sewing
http://n3f.home.comcast.net/ -- Writers' Exchange
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.

Wool or down.

And don't forget your head and neck.  You can lose a lot of heat there
if you don't insulate them.

Fibres aren't really warm of themselves, what makes for the insulation
is still air that they trap.  Down is currently about the best way of
doing that, as long as it's dry.

Most downies use synthetic shells because they're easier to make light,
down-proof and moisture-inhibiting, but if you must have natural then I
guess someone out there makes them in cotton.

Using a light wool base-layer underneath (Merino is particularly good,
but quite pricey) will help keep your skin dry which is a definite bonus
in keeping warm.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch                    Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637   Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177              Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk     http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

So is a wool jersey good at keeping wind out?  Perhaps one could wear a
wool jersey and a big sweater or two underneath?

I already have a (synthetic) jacket shell, so I don't need a shell now -
so that would be for the future.

It seems like the best plan might be to use a shell and wear wool
sweater(s) under it.  

It's possible to get a down jacket with waxed cotton exterior.  I don't
know what it's lined with.  But reviews said the waxed cotton attracts
lint like crazy, and I don't want something high-maintenance.  

So the concept of doing it all by layers, having several different
garments doing the job together, may be what works best.  Your standard
synthetic-fabric down jacket is trying to incorporate a lot of layers in
one jacket.  

So I guess my question is partly, what's the fluffiest kind of wool to
wear under the shell?  Perhaps as a second sweater under the big wool
sweater I already have.  Another person said merino wool.  Is this the
fluffiest and most air-trapping wool option?  I don't mind if it's
somewhat pricey.  

Those aren't scratchy next to your skin?

Bread-bag trick ... I suppose you are referring to keeping feet warm?  I
jsut wear hiking boots with a couple of warm socks.  That keeps me warm
biking around town, but I'd be interested in a lighter option.  I don't
know where the heat mostly gets out in in my lighter closed shoes, whether
it's through the leather uppers or the soles, but maybe some kind of
natural-fabric bag around them would keep the warmth in well on the bike
(I don't have that size of plastic waste bag).  Interesting thought.  

Another thing I might try to replace with some natural fiber is my
balaclava.  I've used a synthetic balaclava for years, it's very thin and
light under the bike helmet and keeps my head & neck warm fine; but
perhaps some natural version would also be thin enough and stretchy
enough.

Thanks,
Laura

So is a wool jersey good at keeping wind out?  Perhaps one could wear a
wool jersey and a big sweater or two underneath?

I already have a (synthetic) jacket shell, so I don't need a shell now -
so that would be for the future.

It seems like the best plan might be to use a shell and wear wool
sweater(s) under it.  

It's possible to get a down jacket with waxed cotton exterior.  I don't
know what it's lined with.  But reviews said the waxed cotton attracts
lint like crazy, and I don't want something high-maintenance.  

So the concept of doing it all by layers, having several different
garments doing the job together, may be what works best.  Your standard
synthetic-fabric down jacket is trying to incorporate a lot of layers in
one jacket.  

So I guess my question is partly, what's the fluffiest kind of wool to
wear under the shell?  Perhaps as a second sweater under the big wool
sweater I already have.  Another person said merino wool.  Is this the
fluffiest and most air-trapping wool option?  I don't mind if it's
somewhat pricey.  

Those aren't scratchy next to your skin?

Bread-bag trick ... I suppose you are referring to keeping feet warm?  I
jsut wear hiking boots with a couple of warm socks.  That keeps me warm
biking around town, but I'd be interested in a lighter option.  I don't
know where the heat mostly gets out in in my lighter closed shoes, whether
it's through the leather uppers or the soles, but maybe some kind of
natural-fabric bag around them would keep the warmth in well on the bike
(I don't have that size of plastic waste bag).  Interesting thought.  

Another thing I might try to replace with some natural fiber is my
balaclava.  I've used a synthetic balaclava for years, it's very thin and
light under the bike helmet and keeps my head & neck warm fine; but
perhaps some natural version would also be thin enough and stretchy
enough.

Thanks,
Laura

So is a wool jersey good at keeping wind out?  Perhaps one could wear a
wool jersey and a big sweater or two underneath?

I already have a (synthetic) jacket shell, so I don't need a shell now -
so that would be for the future.

It seems like the best plan might be to use a shell and wear wool
sweater(s) under it.  

It's possible to get a down jacket with waxed cotton exterior.  I don't
know what it's lined with.  But reviews said the waxed cotton attracts
lint like crazy, and I don't want something high-maintenance.  

So the concept of doing it all by layers, having several different
garments doing the job together, may be what works best.  Your standard
synthetic-fabric down jacket is trying to incorporate a lot of layers in
one jacket.  

So I guess my question is partly, what's the fluffiest kind of wool to
wear under the shell?  Perhaps as a second sweater under the big wool
sweater I already have.  Another person said merino wool.  Is this the
fluffiest and most air-trapping wool option?  I don't mind if it's
somewhat pricey.  

Those aren't scratchy next to your skin?

Bread-bag trick ... I suppose you are referring to keeping feet warm?  I
jsut wear hiking boots with a couple of warm socks.  That keeps me warm
biking around town, but I'd be interested in a lighter option.  I don't
know where the heat mostly gets out in in my lighter closed shoes, whether
it's through the leather uppers or the soles, but maybe some kind of
natural-fabric bag around them would keep the warmth in well on the bike
(I don't have that size of plastic waste bag).  Interesting thought.  

Another thing I might try to replace with some natural fiber is my
balaclava.  I've used a synthetic balaclava for years, it's very thin and
light under the bike helmet and keeps my head & neck warm fine; but
perhaps some natural version would also be thin enough and stretchy
enough.

Thanks,
Laura

So is a wool jersey good at keeping wind out?  Perhaps one could wear a
wool jersey and a big sweater or two underneath?

I already have a (synthetic) jacket shell, so I don't need a shell now -
so that would be for the future.

It seems like the best plan might be to use a shell and wear wool
sweater(s) under it.  

It's possible to get a down jacket with waxed cotton exterior.  I don't
know what it's lined with.  But reviews said the waxed cotton attracts
lint like crazy, and I don't want something high-maintenance.  

So the concept of doing it all by layers, having several different
garments doing the job together, may be what works best.  Your standard
synthetic-fabric down jacket is trying to incorporate a lot of layers in
one jacket.  

So I guess my question is partly, what's the fluffiest kind of wool to
wear under the shell?  Perhaps as a second sweater under the big wool
sweater I already have.  Another person said merino wool.  Is this the
fluffiest and most air-trapping wool option?  I don't mind if it's
somewhat pricey.  

Those aren't scratchy next to your skin?

Bread-bag trick ... I suppose you are referring to keeping feet warm?  I
jsut wear hiking boots with a couple of warm socks.  That keeps me warm
biking around town, but I'd be interested in a lighter option.  I don't
know where the heat mostly gets out in in my lighter closed shoes, whether
it's through the leather uppers or the soles, but maybe some kind of
natural-fabric bag around them would keep the warmth in well on the bike
(I don't have that size of plastic waste bag).  Interesting thought.  

Another thing I might try to replace with some natural fiber is my
balaclava.  I've used a synthetic balaclava for years, it's very thin and
light under the bike helmet and keeps my head & neck warm fine; but
perhaps some natural version would also be thin enough and stretchy
enough.

Thanks,
Laura

On Fri,  6 Nov 2009 11:02:54 -0500 (EST), p...@grex.org (Graven Water)
wrote:

If you already have a bulky sweater I'd go for better underwear and
maybe a light wool shirt under the sweater and pants.  You answer is
going to be layers more than materials.  

There are many different wool fibers but most are not commercially
identified.  If you really don't care about cost track down the small
spinning/knitting/weaving folks.  They can tell you more  than you
want to know and supply the materials in whatever form you want.

Try this site and look down the left hand column for the handspinning
fibers as a place to start:

http://www.joyofhandspinning.com/

Uhm, just curious. Why are you so set on 'only'
natural fabrics?

Many synthetics which may do a better job and
be lighter than naturals are up to 100%
recycled material. Some poly-fleece is 100%
recycled milk containers, for instance.

I bought several thin merino wool sweaters.  They aren't at all scratchy.  
They're soft enough that you can use them as a pajama top.  They were at
Target (!)  They're guys' sweaters.  

I was looking for fluffy wool sweaters, but I didn't find any.  But these
thin ones, especially if you wear two of them, will probably be enough for
the winter, under my thick wool sweater.  I bought a size S and M, for two
layers.

Wool has to be hand-washed or drycleaned, so wool garments are
probably best used as thermal underwear, where they aren't exposed and won't
get dirty quickly.  

Laura

On Nov 8, 8:06 am, p...@grex.org (Graven Water) wrote:

Maybe the fancy wool designed to make you look in style but certainly
not all wool.  I have wool shirts, socks, pants etc and I just throw
them in the washing machine on cold, then hang them up to dry.  No
problem with shrinkage that way.

Hint: if you do that, I understand that a spoonful of olive oil in the
rinse water will help keep it from getting scratchy.  I wouldn't know,
wool next to my skin doesn't bother me in most cases anyway.

Consider non-natural fiber. Sporthill make some XC gear that blocks wind
to 30mph, but wicks to keep you dry, and is tremendously warm and light.

SOmething like  their Zone 3 (0-40 degree) might suit you.
Jacket
http://sporthill.com/prodlist.php?zonecat=Z3JACK&gender=w

Top:
http://sporthill.com/prodlist.php?zonecat=Z3TOPS&gender=w

BAse layer:
http://sporthill.com/prodlist.php?zonecat=Z2TOPS&gender=w

Just a base layer, plus your existing wool and shell might do it for
you. A clingy base layer stops drafts very well.
gr

On Nov 8, 1:26 pm, "hlill...@juno.com" <hlill...@juno.com> wrote:

Yes, I do that with my wool hiking socks.  Machine wash cold, hang
dry.  There may be some wool socks that can't stand up to that
treatment, but my thinking is:  if they can't survive that wimpy test-
to-destruction, then I didn't want to own that pair of socks anyway.

I haven't tried the olive oil trick.  Reminds me of a Mad Magazine
satire of Consumer Reports, in which the testers subjected some
product (maybe wool shirts) to severe testing by dousing them with
milk and flour and heating them to hundreds of degrees in an oven.
Test results:  not only did some of the shirts "smell tempting, but
they tasted delicious!".  ;)

I don't wear wool shirts anymore, so I don't have firsthand experience
with their ability to stand up to machine-washing.  But the hiking
socks do fine.

--MKT

On Fri,  6 Nov 2009 11:02:54 -0500 (EST), p...@grex.org (Graven Water)
wrote:

Mine is a double-front jersey, and I seldom need to put on my
windbreaker.  That's two layers each about as thick as a muslin bed
sheet.

Wool does resist wind to a considerable extent -- and it doesn't like
to get wet, either; I have to forcibly sink wool garments when I put
them into the washer, and that's with detergent in the water!   If I
have a nylon windbreaker on over a wool sweater, I don't get wet even
when the windbreaker is saturated and dripping.  

Since my jerseys are tight-fitting, I tend to wear the heavy sweater
on top.  I don't think the heavy sweater came out of the bottom drawer
last winter -- it's hand-knit of Fisherman's Three Ply in a
heavily-embossed pattern, and I stopped wearing my down jacket the day
it was finished.  

My newest jersey is a five-pocket T-shirt made of dry-clean-only
all-wool jersey that I ran through the washer with hot water, then
dried in a dryer.   It came out very thick and dense and
wind-resistant, and doesn't mind being washed in cold water at all.
(Though I agitate as little as possible, and try to keep it clean,
because dry-clean-only fabric is about as durable as Kleenex.)

I meant it for a top layer, but the shrunken fabric has much less
stretch than the cotton interlock I'd adjusted the pattern with, so I
can't wear anything but a spun-silk turtleneck under it.  It's nice
when the weather is cold enough that I'm sure I won't want to take it
off.

Synthetic is the way to go for a shell, preferably a
naturally-hydrophobic synthetic such as polyester or nylon.

Not if they are good wool.  At GEAR '89 Saratoga, I bought new winter
clothes in the huxter room; that night I discovered that I'd forgotten
to pack pajamas.  In a mixed-sex dorm that the custodian in charge of
the air conditioning had mistaken for a refrigerator, sleeping raw
wasn't an option.  So I used my new long-sleeved wool jersey and my
new wool tights as pajamas for the whole convention, and was very
comfortable.  

But good wool is hard to find.  When this topic first came up (on
misc.bike, I believe) and people started saying "wool is hard to take
care of" my first thought was "???  I take my wool jerseys out of the
washer and dry them on suit hangers, what fuss are you talking about?"
And then I remembered that I'm engaged, right now, in extensive
restorative surgery on a thirty-year-old jersey that really isn't
worth repairing --- I can't buy a replacement, and can't buy fabric to
make one.  

Likewise, one of the respondents complained that wool is too warm --
that was "?????!!!!!?????" -- but again, where do you buy *thin* wool?

My hiking boots won't fit into the toe clips, and have high tops that
restrict movement of the ankles.  And Vibram soles aren't as non-skid
on pedals as they are on snow.  So I add layers on the outside of my
summer shoes.

Bootees are what you have in mind -- a sort of cloth overshoe with a
hole in the sole for the clips.  I imagine spats would help.  Even if
the bootee isn't insulated, by keeping the wind off what's under it,
it makes insulation out of materials designed to let heat out.  

I've no idea where to buy bootees, but with fall fading fast, it's
high time I found out!

If it isn't too awful cold, wool gaiters are enough; I made them to
flare over my shoe tops some.

If it works, don't fix it.

My balaclava is hand-knit from 4/8 worsted wool.  Very warm, but I
used the Double Rose pattern, which lets wind sail right through, so I
have to wear a scarf over it.  Also need the scarf to let my helmet
slide into place; the sizing pads cling to wool and stretch it.  

Early in the forties, I was taught to wear a scarf babushka style --
didn't have any name beyond "head scarf" back then, of course.  Fold a
one-yard square in half, place the middle of the hypotenuse of the
resulting triangle above your forehead, tie the corners under the
chin.  Much warmer than wearing a hat.

I find it even warmer to use a 40" square (about a meter), cross the
corners under the chin, and tie at the back of the neck; it forms a
tight-fitting coif and wind doesn't get in anywhere.   I wear linen
half-squares all summer, to keep the sun off and soak up sweat (but
mainly because my ears ache if I let wind blow on them.)  

A thick winter scarf piles up around the neck; I have a thick, fluffy
lambswool scarf that barely meets under the chin.  I fold this in half
and lay it on a cotton half-square; nice and thick over the ears and
at the back of my head, but doesn't get involved in the wraps around
my neck.  

A helmet cover also helps; blocking the ventilation holes makes all
that plastic foam into insulation.  But I've usually forgotten where I
put the helmet cover.  (It's just an oval of taffeta with elastic
around the edges, like a shower cap.  Hmm --- a shower cap might well
do nicely, and they come in white.  Hate to get caught out after dark
wearing orange.)

Joy Beeson
--
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://roughsewing.home.comcast.net/ -- sewing
http://n3f.home.comcast.net/ -- Writers' Exchange
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.

How well it does that depends on the weave and thickness.  It's not
really any better or worse than other things of comparable weave and
thickness because wind resistance is largely down to how much /stuff/
between you and the wind.  What the stuff is isn't that important.

Having said that, felted wool is very dense stuff and remarkably wind
resistant.

Depends on the conditions.  Cold/dry is fine for cotton.  Ventile is
still a preferred choice for many for polar travel.  But a synthetic one
will be more use when summer comes around again.

A pal uses a shower cap, seems to work fine.  Personally I prefer to
ride without a helmet unless it's the sort of riding where I expect to
fall off or scrape my head against tree branches.  And that means any
windproof hat will do.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch                    Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637   Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177              Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk     http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Tue, 10 Nov 2009 09:47:08 +0000, Peter Clinch

It's not to protect from bumps -- it's the only place I can hang a
rear-view mirror.  (I rarely ride where there is no motorized
traffic.)

But I do try to actually wear it, not just carry it on my head.   Not
easy with the "parachute buckle" that has replaced the reliable and
adjustable-with-one-hand D-ring buckle.  My chin strap is usually a
tad loose because it can't be adjusted properly, and on one occasion I
reached up to unfasten the buckle and nudged it into closing for the
first time..

Joy Beeson
--
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://roughsewing.home.comcast.net/ -- sewing
http://n3f.home.comcast.net/ -- Writers' Exchange
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.

Handlebars are the obvious place, or you can get ones that mount on
the arm on a pair of glasses.  Glasses are handy in cold weather to
stop eyes watering even if you don't need a prescription.

Modern bar-mount mirrors tend not to suffer too much from vibration
and IME work better than helmet or glasses mounted ones.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch                    Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637   Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177              Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk     http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Wolverine never freezes.

I also own samples (hats) of muskox and cariboo.

Icelandic wool is also liked by some (if one can get to Vik, Iceland and
the like).

On Wed, 11 Nov 2009 12:52:00 +0000, Peter Clinch

Modern bar-mount mirrors stop the *handlebars* from vibrating?

Vibration isn't really an issue -- unless it's a chip-and-seal road,
in which case my fingers go numb.  (Haven't noticed that lately;
probably because I won't stay on a rough road that long.  Not to
mention that roads near our retirement home aren't *uniformly* rough.)
The problem is that the handlebars aren't synchronized with my head.  

Glasses aren't an option because I *do* wear prescription lenses, and
can only have one pair at a time because it takes me a while to adapt
even when both pairs are the same exact prescription.  (Not to mention
that I'm forgetful, so it isn't advisable to try to keep track of more
than one pair of specs.  One pair isn't difficult, as I can't see well
enough to walk away from it.)  

So I'd have to mount and dismount the mirror on my glasses every time
I got on the bike, and I'd not like to wear, when not on the bike, a
frame with temples sturdy enough to mount a mirror on.  

So FOR ME a helmet-mounted mirror is the only option.  

How big were the helmet mirrors you tried?  Anything bigger than a
U.S. quarter will block way too much of the forward view.  

And I found that mirrors on plastic mounts don't work; no matter how
many unreliable ball joints they add, you can't get the mirror into
the right place at the right angle.  The one I use looks as though it
had been improvised with a stainless-steel spoke, a dentist's mirror,
a beer can, and some epoxy and shrink tubing.  I don't recall where I
got it, so I'm glad there's a back-up copy in the bike cupboard.  

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at comcast dot net

No.  The usual reason not to put a mirror on the bars is vibration
renders the image too poor to reliably use.

Glasses-mount mirrors just clip on to the arms, and clip off again.  So
if you wear glasses these are actually a good, working and easy option.
 Much less hassle than a cycle helmet, in fact, as you have your glasses
on anyway.

Mount/dismount is no harder than putting on/off a helmet, and you don't
need any special sort of temples to hold them.  The one I've used is a
simple friction clamp.

I use a B&M Cyclestar mirror.  The mount is sufficiently do-anything
that it works fine on a SWB recumbent despite not being designed for it.
 Easy on that one, for me, to get it at the right angle in the right
place.  And being a bar mount it stays on the bike, which is where I
want it.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch                    Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637   Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177              Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net p.j.cli...@dundee.ac.uk     http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/