A friend was asking me advice yesterday (being the local techie-guy he
knows) about getting a computer for his kids to use, and about making
it safe on the Internet and all that guff.

It made me think that this could be an interesting topic for a 15
minute presentation at MXUG.  Anybody think they might find this
interesting?

I thought we could either have someone do a usual presentation if they
have some expertise (or know someone they could invite in to talk on
the subject), or the other alternative would be to have it like a 20
minute panel type format with four or five willing participants to sit
up the front and share their experience, opinions, etc.

I would be willing to be a panelist, and/or facilitator to keep it on
track.

What do people think?  Are there enough MXUG members who are parents
or would otherwise be interested?

E.

I have two kids (15 & 10) who have computers so I'd be happy to be on
a panel. Be warned that I have a very simplistic approach to this
topic

2009/10/23 Evan <evan.mcl...@gmail.com>:

--
Alec Clews
Personal <alec.cl...@gmail.com>             Melbourne, Australia.
Jabber:  aleccl...@jabber.org.au             PGPKey ID: 0x9BBBFC7C
blog:http://alecthegeek.wordpress.com/

I think that wouldbe great

Steve

Composed (with typos) on my iPhone

On 23/10/2009, at 11:35 AM, Evan <evan.mcl...@gmail.com> wrote:

A worthy topic indeed. Likewise being the "local techie-guy" I get asked it
quite a bit.

Cheers,
Brian Mills

2009/10/23 Steve Hayes <steve.e.ha...@gmail.com>

There are a few answers but mainly it's an education thing and a
generational problem with the tech being sooo abstract, esoteric and
black box voodoo. The current opt-out internet censorship is not the
answer however an opt in local software/CPE and cloud solution *could*
work.... kids can surf from other premises though too!

Here is one simple straightforward video (below the censorship one!) we made:
http://www.nodecity.com/empower

Also there is a vast array of software but an ISP that offers an opt
in clean feed is the best localised solution, however the ISP can
never see inside armored/encrypted tunnels and kids spinning up
proxies in the cloud :(

Comes back to engagement and eduction with parents/kids as the long
tail of fetishism/violence becomes more mainstream on the largest
human mirror known, the internet. Have a look @
http://nocleanfeed.com/ and follow #nocleanfeed on twitter!

I would LOVE to partake in this debate/discussion.

Donal

--
___________________________________________________________________________ _____
Donal

"Any intelligent fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more
violent. It takes a touch of genius -- and a lot of courage -- to move
in the opposite direction." Albert Einstein

On 23/10/2009, at 2:19 PM, Donal wrote:

So would I, but (a) I can't get to MXUG meetings and (b) I'll be  
overseas anyhow.

However, as someone who's raised three rather nice boys (youngest is 19)
who've grown up with ubiquitous Internet, I can record a couple of  
things I
*don't* recommend. It comes down to this: kids need to learn that  
computer
usage is a *social* activity, not an individual one.

As such, wiring CAT-5 to the bedroom is a bad idea. Not sure what you  
do in
the wireless age, but I'd strongly recommend that parents arrange a  
family-room
environment where the computers live, keeping them out of the bedroom  
and
private study places.

Regarding filtering; I had none. Instead I forced all HTTP through a  
proxy that
keeps logs, and I occasionally ran a couple of simple 'grep's through  
the logs.
The boys knew that everything they did was subject (at least  
theoretically) to
scrutiny, so they learned to self-monitor. And *that* was the true  
training. As in
real life, you can get away with most things for a while (like  
speeding in your car)
but sooner or later you *will* be caught. Once you know that, you can  
moderate
your own behaviour, and that's what kids need to do.

As it turns out, I think I only had to speak to each of them *once*  
about them
accessing inappropriate sites - and I actually checked the logs less  
than twice
a year.

However; I an sorry I put a computer on their study desks. They're too  
much of
a distraction and suck away the kid's social time as well as study time.

Clifford Heath.

I am not sure I could sit through such a lengthy discussion on this  
topic when the answer is so simple: Buy a mac! ;-)

*Dons flame-proof suit*

On 23/10/2009, at 4:29 PM, Sadat Rahman wrote:

My wife's old iBook is just waiting for my daughter to ask to use it :)

Having said that I know several kids who have EEEPC 701s and love  
them ;)

      Richard

Bloody geeks. Always trying to apply a technical solution to what is
essentially a people problem.

There's an easier solution. Don't have kids. Problem solved :)

On 23/10/2009, at 5:53 PM, Evan wrote:

Cheers,
Gareth Townsend
http://www.garethtownsend.info
http://www.melbournecocoaheads.com

I've got younger kids, 5 & 7 and they both use Ubuntu, iMac and XP.
They have their own profiles but tend to use the iMac more, as I use XP more
often for work, and Ubuntu was more for fun on an old laptop, playing some
of the games.

I really like the iMac because it comes with a simple site monitoring
security tool out of the box, so in the early days it took a little
configuration, allowing the sites that we aproved, thomasandfriednds,
nickjr, disneyland, abcforkids, etc.  If they see a new site on TV or
friends, or a breakfast cereal or ice cream warpper, etc.. they ask if they
can go on it, and we review and add in with parents password.   It also has
a time limit, so they can only use it for certain times of days/weekends and
restricted hours per day.

I dont know if there is anything like this for XP, maybe Windows 7 has
caught up?

Anyway, I think the most important part is that the computers should be in
an open environment, and not in the rooms.  The bed rooms are for sleeping
and playing with their own toys... thomas train tracks and dolls,, etc..
drawings, etc..  With the busy lives we all live, finding that balance
between work, life, parenting, etc, can be challenging, but so far so good..
they are still young.. who knows what the teens will bring.. oh man when
will they get their own mobile... that's another topic..

My next task is to teach them how to program...hehe... any tools/hints out
there?

Remember your first program?  That was true fun.

Andrew

On Fri, Oct 23, 2009 at 8:21 PM, Gareth Townsend <gareth.towns...@me.com>wrote:

Likewise, my 7 & 5 year-old daughters are both Ubuntu wizzes, and can
find their way around Vista on my laptop if required.

Have a regular set of websites they visit (ABC Kids, the BBC kids'
website CBeebies, sites for some favourite toys etc), and will play with
TuxPaint (http://www.tuxpaint.org/) for as long as we'll let them.

The oldest one also knows apparently knows her way around OpenOffice
Calc -- I set her up a spreadsheet which keeps track of which Rainbow
Magic Fairy books she's read (sigh) and recently discovered she's been
expanding + customising it, so there you go. An exciting career in
middle management awaits.

+1, absolutely. This, honesty, and education. All far more valuable than
covert monitoring or punishment.

I'm looking into this as well. I thought I was precocious learning to
program at 9, but I think Alice (my 7-year-old) is well and truly ready
to start.

I thought of starting with Logo or similar, but haven't found an
interpreter that seems suitably kid-proof. Probably start with KTurtle
(http://edu.kde.org/kturtle/) and see how she goes. If anyone has other
recommendations, shoot.

I have started reading "Hello World!: Computer Programming for Kids and
Other Beginners" (http://www.manning.com/sande/), which introduces kids
to programming in the form of Python. It's probably targetted at older
kids (11 or 12, I'd say) but she's so insanely curious + intelligent
I'll probably get a copy and start working through it with her.

Hell yeah. I think I was the only person in Australia unfortunate enough
to cut their teeth on a Commodore 16 -- the poor man's Plus/4. That fact
that the Plus/4 was, in turn, the
weird-cousin-we-keep-locked-in-the-attic of the Commodore family should
tell you something about the Commodore 16.

Paul

I have three kids aged 8, 12 and 14.

I am also in an interesting position of where my daughters school has  
a compulsory lap top policy for all students from grade 4 onwards.

This raises a few interesting issues with regards to some of the  
suggested thoughts posted on this thread's discussion.

1. Removing the computer from the bedroom and study desk is a liitle  
hard when there is an expectation from the school that they will be  
using it very heavily for study.

2. I have very little control over the software / hardware used at  
home since the requirements are dictated by the school. Unfortunetely  
that means a windows vista laptop :-(. The lap top that is paid for by  
me is also locked down by the school so they control the software  
installed on it.

3. If my daughter is allowed/required to have her computer in the  
bedroom/work desk I can not deny her brothers from the same privledge.

The computers are only part of the picture. There are the kids PSP's,  
PS3, Wii, mobile phones all of which have Internet access. Should we  
monitor all of these?

There is a simple solution that works best for me. Education and trust.

My kids are aware of the dangers of the internet. We talk about these  
issues and teach them what are  acceptable and safe practices for home  
computer use.

Then we trust them. We do not do any Internet filtering or logging of  
the sites that they visit.

I think spending a little more time in educating your kids in what is  
acceptable and safe usage practices is far more effective than any  
technological and/or draconian solution.

Andy Trigg

Yes, this is very true, but while learning a little technical limitation is
good.  Your not going to give your ferrari to a learner, but as they get
experience, and gain your trust, you'll pass on the keys eventually..

Okay, it does look like there is some interest, but the mail thread
has veered into discussion (which is great, by all means continue).

To get a clearer indication of interest in a presentation, click on
the issue URL below and star it.

http://code.google.com/p/mxug/issues/detail?id=56

It it looks like a go, and no one steps up in a week or so to do as a
regular presentation, I'll solicit volunteers to be panel members to
start getting things organised.

E.

Something else to consider is a retro machine like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1cSrq3Gbd4

Not as an alternative to a modern PC, but possibly a fun introduction
to programming.  I picked mine up from a junk shop for $20, and spent
15 minutes rewiring it.  Hours of fun :-)

Older machines like this have several advantages, in particular a lack
of internet connectivity, meaning that you _can_ allow your children
to have them in their rooms unsupervised.  Plus the scarcity of
software means that if they want a program, they'll have to write it
themselves (that's pretty much how I got started).

If you enjoy projects, you could buy a kitset computer like this:

http://www.apatco.com/products.php

... and assemble it with your kids, hopefully sharing a bit of the joy
that can be found in computing.

I have two girls 6.5yo and 2.5yo

so I'm very interested in the topic...

the younger one just "advanced" recently from ruggedized handheld PDAs
(which I get as part of my work - CN3, MC75, etc ;)
to iPhone (as I bought one recently)

the older one is quite proficient with computers, "google", "youtube" etc
(helps that in grade 1 she reads quite fluently in English)

I have MacBook(+Apple Cinema 20" LCD) - with all the "parental controls"
etc,
BUT
the problem is that in primary schools they are exclusively WINDOWS and MS
centric

all stuff they do at school they do in Windows and MS Office (mainly Word,
PowerPoint )
so I have to run WinXP in "Parallels" - so she can school projects and her
own projects...

the supposed "parental benefits" of Mac did not quite materialize yet...

and I think Cliff got very good point - it's best when things are in a
living room, so you can always keep an eye on
(of course that is easier to arrange with younger kids than teenagers! ;)

anyway, just my 2 cents ;)

cheers,
O.K.

It's interesting.  If it's not coming down as a policy from government I think
this stuff can be useful and valuable.

I figure there are two scenarios - protecting innocent kids who aren't looking
for porn, and attempting to stop kids who are actively looking for porn.

I can't see a way to achieve the latter and still have proper internet access
with email/chat/https/ssh etc, but there may be methods that can improve it.

I am interested in opt-in white-list DNS based internet filtering. I don't like
black-list filtering, you collect a list of bad sites which people can then use
as a directory of bad sites, and it will never be comprehensive or up to date.
The whitelist system would be maintained by the community, not a government.

I don't think logging / accountability is a general solution, because it's an
invasion of privacy.  It might be ok within the family though.

Sam

We get around that by using OpenOffice (both on Mac and Linux). It works
fine for homework provided they remember to use MS Office file formats
between home and school (you can make it the default)

--
Alec Clews
Personal <alec.cl...@gmail.com>                  Melbourne, Australia.
Jabber:  aleccl...@jabber.org.au           PGPKey ID: 0x9BBBFC7C
Blog  http://alecthegeek.wordpress.com/

How does white-based DNS filtering work with sites that were good once, but
turned evil later on?

Also, I am against this whole censorship/dictatorship thing for mature
individuals, but...

What does concern me is chat rooms, social networking sites, etc.  You can
trust facebook, twitter, myspace, etc.. but you cant trust the people who
try to connect to your children as "fake" friends, or even chatting via
skype, msn, etc, and the sending of files/images between these tools.
Blocking is not the way forward.

I think our challenge as parents/citizens is to embrace the technology and
discuss the topics of predators with your children, but how the hell do you
do that with a 5 year old?

2009/10/24 Sam Watkins <s...@nipl.net>

But Stephen Conroy has made the internet safe for everyone already.

I thought individual parental responsibility wasn't required anymore :P

(sorry, someone had to mix in a #nocleanfeed dig)

2009/10/23 Evan <evan.mcl...@gmail.com>

They get removed from it.

Don't let them chat with random adults on the internet unsupervised, any more
than you'd let them play with random adults unsupervised IRL.  I think there's
no need to tell them about rapists, just keep a close eye on them or make sure
that someone trusted is doing so at all times!

Public communication channels such as forums can be white-listed by the
community, post-by-post, change by change, image by image.  In real time a
couple of random trusted people in the community must check the content and say
"yes that's ok for kids" before the child can see it.  Semi-private content
such as chat rooms and posts on facebook within a certain group can be
moderated by the people who are allowed to see it.

It is not appropriate for private communication among children such email and
instant messages to be monitored.  Personal details such as addresses might be
present, and some communication between friends is very sensitive.

In this case, it might be best to limit a child so they can only communicate
with friends and peers.  This would be a good thing anyway to avoid spam.

Parents could be involved in approving and perhaps monitoring interaction with
new or untrusted friends.

The alternative is to make a conversation public.  Writing to someone at the
museum about a school project doesn't need to be a private thing.

If parents must give permission for every interaction, it might give parents
too much control over a child's friendship group.  I think it would be no good
if a parent can say, "I won't let my daughter talk to that boy" just because
they don't approve of him.

So perhaps there could be some sort of trust-network so that children of the
same age (and maybe in the same area) are automatically approved to
communicate.

There is the possibility that an adult could use a child's online identity to
talk to other children.  If strong methods are used for authentication, this
could be mostly prevented, and suspects would be limited.

Sam

Is it just me or that seems completely draconian? I'm very glad I
didn't grow up with that sort of regime.

Well, despite not having kids (nor planning them, at least not in the
next few years!) I'd be quite interested - it seems an intensely
complex subject.  And I just got friended on facebook by a 14-year-old
niece, so I probably need to apply some thought to the whole subject -
at minimum, I'll need to think about the appropriateness of what I say
on facebook, to the 14-year-old audience!

- Korny

--
Kornelis Sietsma  korny at my surname dot com
kornys on twitter/fb/gtalk/gwave www.sietsma.com/korny
"Every jumbled pile of person has a thinking part
that wonders what the part that isn't thinking
isn't thinking of"

The topic does really interest me - I have two daughters - a 1 year
old and a 3 year old

I hadn't given much thought to internet access and monitoring - my
plan was probably to naively hope they would talk to me if anything
upsetting or confusing happened while they were online.  I know they
will have internet access when I'm not around so would want to educate
them about the sorts of unwholesome people that might be out there.

It certainly seems like we should have a 15 minute time slot dedicated
to the discussion at the next meeting.

I also have a 12 year old twitter follower who I don't know at all -
she happens to share the same name as my 3 year old daughter.  It
makes me consider what I say a little more carefully.  Since there's
nothing stopping all 12 year olds reading your twitter feed, perhaps
it's worth keeping in mind regardless of your followers.

Mark.