> > > Babies grow up perfectly healthy on formula. I am an advocate of BF and > > > fed my own that way -- BUT only a real crank thinks it is her business to > > > assault mothers who make different choices -- and for most kids, it > > > doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Formula is not 'bad nutrition'
> > Compared to breastmilk yes it is indeed. Formula feeding has killed > > babies.
> and you and Karen deserve each other -- you are an ass.\
No, I am not, I speak the truth. There are studies to back me up. I do not know the links, but I know those who do.
> I cannot begin to enumerate the number of women I know who started breast > feeding but had to give it up because of economics [I'll be interested to > see how many figure that one out
I'd like you to explain it to me. I want to know why it is more expensive to feed free breastmilk to a baby, even if you have to buy a quality pump and pump from work, it is still 100 times less expensive than formula feeding. Explain it to me will ya?
>> I cannot begin to enumerate the number of women I know who started breast >> feeding but had to give it up because of economics [I'll be interested to >> see how many figure that one out
>I'd like you to explain it to me. I want to know why it is more expensive >to feed free breastmilk to a baby, even if you have to buy a quality pump >and pump from work, it is still 100 times less expensive than formula >feeding. Explain it to me will ya?
With WIC formula is free. So all you'd have to pay for is bottles. Marie
> >> I cannot begin to enumerate the number of women I know who started > breast > >> feeding but had to give it up because of economics [I'll be interested to > >> see how many figure that one out
> >I'd like you to explain it to me. I want to know why it is more > expensive > >to feed free breastmilk to a baby, even if you have to buy a quality pump > >and pump from work, it is still 100 times less expensive than formula > >feeding. Explain it to me will ya?
> With WIC formula is free. So all you'd have to pay for is bottles. > Marie
What if you try formula on your baby and she cannot abide it and your milk has dried up. Breastmilk is always right there, any time any place. No bottles to wash or sterilize no formula to pick up at the store, no need to go to WIC (alot of people don't qualify). Free and best : Breastmilk :-)
> > > I cannot begin to enumerate the number of women I know who started > breast > > > feeding but had to give it up because of economics [I'll be interested > to > > > see how many figure that one out
> > I'd like you to explain it to me. I want to know why it is more > expensive > > to feed free breastmilk to a baby, even if you have to buy a quality pump > > and pump from work, it is still 100 times less expensive than formula > > feeding. Explain it to me will ya?
> Not everyone has a job where they are allowed the time and ability to relax > enough to pump. They need to work, economically speaking, in order for > their family to remain any where near solvent. Many women find that they > cannot pump enough to meet their child's needs unless they are nursing > simultaneously. This creates further difficulties for those who cannot > nurse at work or leave work for a while to go to the baby. WIC can help > with cost, but even so, the cost of the formula does not offset the income > lost should they quit and stay home.
> Pumps, by the way, are rather expensive if they are any good. I bought a > cheapie for something like $35, four years ago. It ran on batteries or an > adapter and worked ok, but only when I was nursing on the other side. It > died by the time my son was six months old, but by then I was cutting out > the noon nursing anyway. Rentals sound cheap until you consider how long > one will be renting. Either way, the cost adds up, many employers do not > actively support the breastfeeding mother in providing a decent place to > nurse or pump, let alone quiet, peaceful time to do so [remember how hard it > is to let down when one is uncomfortable or less than relaxed?].
> Does that make things more understandable?
No, sounds like a big bunch of excuses to me. The law provides for 15 minute breaks every 2-3 hours. Lawsuits have been won over firings from pumping so that is unlawful now to fire someone for that reason. And even if a good pump costs $200 that is nowhere near the cost of nottles, formula, etc. never mind time involved in preparing formula. Formula fed babies get sick much more often so there is extra doctor bills, time off from work to take baby to doctor, and to stay home with sick baby, etc. If you think formula is cheaper you are seriously deluded.
I understnand what you're saying, I'm just playing the other side. If one formula didn't work, they'd have to just keep trying different ones and letting the baby suffer. Marie
>> >> I cannot begin to enumerate the number of women I know who started >> breast >> >> feeding but had to give it up because of economics [I'll be interested >to >> >> see how many figure that one out
>> >I'd like you to explain it to me. I want to know why it is more >> expensive >> >to feed free breastmilk to a baby, even if you have to buy a quality pump >> >and pump from work, it is still 100 times less expensive than formula >> >feeding. Explain it to me will ya?
>> With WIC formula is free. So all you'd have to pay for is bottles. >> Marie
>What if you try formula on your baby and she cannot abide it and your milk >has dried up. Breastmilk is always right there, any time any place. No >bottles to wash or sterilize no formula to pick up at the store, no need to >go to WIC (alot of people don't qualify). Free and best : Breastmilk :-)
Something I just thought of- the women who just have to go to work and that's why they can't breastfeed, they could still keep breastfeeding, even if the baby has to bottlefeed while away from the mother. So that is just another excuse to not BF in my eyes. Marie
>> >> I cannot begin to enumerate the number of women I know who started >> breast >> >> feeding but had to give it up because of economics [I'll be interested >to >> >> see how many figure that one out
>> >I'd like you to explain it to me. I want to know why it is more >> expensive >> >to feed free breastmilk to a baby, even if you have to buy a quality pump >> >and pump from work, it is still 100 times less expensive than formula >> >feeding. Explain it to me will ya?
>> With WIC formula is free. So all you'd have to pay for is bottles. >> Marie
>What if you try formula on your baby and she cannot abide it and your milk >has dried up. Breastmilk is always right there, any time any place. No >bottles to wash or sterilize no formula to pick up at the store, no need to >go to WIC (alot of people don't qualify). Free and best : Breastmilk :-)
Any mother who has to work could still breastfeed while she is actually with the child. Even if she used formula while she's at work, she could still be breastfeeding in the evenings (or whenever her home hours are.) Marie
>> In misc.kids.breastfeeding just me <thedewi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>> > "shmily" <shm...@msn.com> wrote in message >> > news:ePqn2j8t$GA.235@cpmsnbbsa03... >> > Please share your experiences of working, pumping and successfully >> > breastfeeding your children until they weaned themselves. From what you >> > write it sounds like you have not experienced the working world while a >> > breastfeeding mother and also that you feel that $200 is not expensive. >For >> > many people that is a very very sizeable amount of money and is beyond >their >> > means.
>> If they can't afford a pump, how can they afford formula? 10 weeks worth >> of formula, roughly, will pay for a pump.
>Laying out a large sum at one time can often be much harder to do [harder to >have the money available] than having it go out in dribs and drabs. For >many many folks that $200 is the electricity, phone and water bill for the >month, if paid out at once. Many people live pay check to pay check. Many >people. Are you saying that those folks should not have children? and, >don't forget the inherent assumption being made throughout this whole group >of related threads: that all children are born to adults who are married to >each other who have a stable source of income. That is not an accurate >assumption.
> >Not everyone has a job where they are allowed the time and ability to relax > >enough to pump.
> It is possible to use formula for when at work, and bf the rest of the time. > So far I have not had to do this, but even if I had no time to pump and had to > formula feed my son at work, I would still bf him at home. And that would be > cheaper than totally formula feeding him. Your argument just doesn't work. If > someone is committed to bf their child, she will. I know a while back everyone > posted their stories, and just about everybody had had their share of
Once again, highly polarized lines based on emotions and generalizations prevent individuals from acknowledging that there are a number [myriad] of situations in the world where moms make decisions that others judge them for, without all the information. That what is right and works for one may not do so for a bunch of others.
Sit down, relax, take some deep breaths, all of [us] and start acknowledging this.
I cannot begin to enumerate the number of women I know who started breast feeding but had to give it up because of economics [I'll be interested to see how many figure that one out], because they required medications that would be passed on to the nursing infant and could potentially be harmful to the child, because they received no support and lots of bashing, because they did not know how to successfully nurse and did not even begin to know where to turn for help, because because because. I am one of the very few women I know who has successfully breast fed to weaning as initiated by the child. But, many of the women I know started out to breastfeed.
So, everyone, chill out and start trying to walk a mile in someone else's moccasins. Yeah, better get that flame retardant stuff out again....
> > > > Babies grow up perfectly healthy on formula. I am an advocate of BF > and > > > > fed my own that way -- BUT only a real crank thinks it is her business > to > > > > assault mothers who make different choices -- and for most kids, it > > > > doesn't make a whole lot of difference. Formula is not 'bad > nutrition'
> > > Compared to breastmilk yes it is indeed. Formula feeding has killed > > > babies.
> > and you and Karen deserve each other -- you are an ass.\
> No, I am not, I speak the truth. > There are studies to back me up. > I do not know the links, but I know those who do.
> > I cannot begin to enumerate the number of women I know who started breast > > feeding but had to give it up because of economics [I'll be interested to > > see how many figure that one out
> I'd like you to explain it to me. I want to know why it is more expensive > to feed free breastmilk to a baby, even if you have to buy a quality pump > and pump from work, it is still 100 times less expensive than formula > feeding. Explain it to me will ya?
Not everyone has a job where they are allowed the time and ability to relax enough to pump. They need to work, economically speaking, in order for their family to remain any where near solvent. Many women find that they cannot pump enough to meet their child's needs unless they are nursing simultaneously. This creates further difficulties for those who cannot nurse at work or leave work for a while to go to the baby. WIC can help with cost, but even so, the cost of the formula does not offset the income lost should they quit and stay home.
Pumps, by the way, are rather expensive if they are any good. I bought a cheapie for something like $35, four years ago. It ran on batteries or an adapter and worked ok, but only when I was nursing on the other side. It died by the time my son was six months old, but by then I was cutting out the noon nursing anyway. Rentals sound cheap until you consider how long one will be renting. Either way, the cost adds up, many employers do not actively support the breastfeeding mother in providing a decent place to nurse or pump, let alone quiet, peaceful time to do so [remember how hard it is to let down when one is uncomfortable or less than relaxed?].
> No, sounds like a big bunch of excuses to me. The law provides for 15 > minute breaks every 2-3 hours. Lawsuits have been won over firings from > pumping so that is unlawful now to fire someone for that reason. And even > if a good pump costs $200 that is nowhere near the cost of nottles, formula, > etc. never mind time involved in preparing formula. Formula fed babies > get sick much more often so there is extra doctor bills, time off from work > to take baby to doctor, and to stay home with sick baby, etc. If you > think formula is cheaper you are seriously deluded.
Please share your experiences of working, pumping and successfully breastfeeding your children until they weaned themselves. From what you write it sounds like you have not experienced the working world while a breastfeeding mother and also that you feel that $200 is not expensive. For many people that is a very very sizeable amount of money and is beyond their means. But, the purchase of formula is not, on a weekly basis, as expensive, bottles are given to you by your friends and relatives as they are done with them, etc. Many mothers feel that they are put in a corner where they have to do what they do, and they will certainly not appreciate people coming to them and loudly judging in the manner which you are using what they felt was the best decision that they could make at the time, .
I repeat myself, if you wish to teach, you provide the information without beating people over the head with it. You also provide the source information so that they can check it out themselves. While I do not doubt that WHO feels that x number of children die annually due to being formula fed, I would like to see your data, not your interpretation of it. Personally, I doubt that we will agree to disagree on this one and be able to be friendly about it because you are very very certain that you are right and no one else might have some credible information or opinion as well. Perhaps you need to come down out of your lofty tower and truly examine what it is that so many of the rest of us claim to be our experiences before you continue to judge us out of hand.
In misc.kids.breastfeeding just me <thedewi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> "shmily" <shm...@msn.com> wrote in message > news:ePqn2j8t$GA.235@cpmsnbbsa03... > Please share your experiences of working, pumping and successfully > breastfeeding your children until they weaned themselves. From what you > write it sounds like you have not experienced the working world while a > breastfeeding mother and also that you feel that $200 is not expensive. For > many people that is a very very sizeable amount of money and is beyond their > means.
If they can't afford a pump, how can they afford formula? 10 weeks worth of formula, roughly, will pay for a pump.
Now yes, I will agree that a few jobs are not amenable to pumping, and some are not amenable even to nursing while at home and having the caregiver give formula. But, given that only about 20% of women are bf at ALL by 6 months, it is VERY clear that this issue is responsible for only a very small percentage of the women who formula feed.
But, the purchase of formula is not, on a weekly basis, as
> expensive, bottles are given to you by your friends and relatives as they > are done with them, etc.
$200 all at once is exactly the same money as $200 spread over 10 weeks. And, as hard as it is to accept, if you can't afford to pay for the basic necessities of baby care, perhaps you should think twice about having children, because, in the greater scheme os things, $200 is chicken feed. (And if your child gets one or two extra illnesses due to being formula fed, the doctor bills and antibiotics could well equal $200.
> I repeat myself, if you wish to teach, you provide the information without > beating people over the head with it.
Yet, too often, when information IS presented (basic facts like bf being healthier, or most women being able to bf) the responses come back saying "Well MY child was never sick, so any studies that claim that bf babies are healthier are clearly biased or flawed." (Even though the studies do not say that ALL formula fed babies are sick all the time.)
You also provide the source
> information so that they can check it out themselves. While I do not doubt > that WHO feels that x number of children die annually due to being formula > fed, I would like to see your data, not your interpretation of it.
I also do not, unfortunately, have the specific cite to hand for the increased deaths due to ff. But it doesn't take a huge leap of faith to see the logic in it. FF babies are much more likely to get sick. They are especially more likely to get serious illnesses. SOME babies who get seriously ill die. So if a larger percentage of FF babies get sick, a larger percentage of them will die.
> I also do not, unfortunately, have the specific cite to hand for the > increased deaths due to ff. But it doesn't take a huge leap of faith to > see the logic in it. FF babies are much more likely to get sick. They are > especially more likely to get serious illnesses. SOME babies who get > seriously ill die. So if a larger percentage of FF babies get sick, a > larger percentage of them will die.
I have been scanning the WHO site for the last fifteen minutes or so for info on deaths related to formula feeding. Now that you add the info that the deaths have increased I am further intrigued as the current generation of American women is breastfeeding at much higher rates than the American women of the WWII through 1970's years did. It would seem to me, then, that those rates should be *declining* as more women breast feed. Now I really want to see that data, particularly the longitudinal stuff.
> In misc.kids.breastfeeding just me <thedewi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > "shmily" <shm...@msn.com> wrote in message > > news:ePqn2j8t$GA.235@cpmsnbbsa03... > > Please share your experiences of working, pumping and successfully > > breastfeeding your children until they weaned themselves. From what you > > write it sounds like you have not experienced the working world while a > > breastfeeding mother and also that you feel that $200 is not expensive. For > > many people that is a very very sizeable amount of money and is beyond their > > means.
> If they can't afford a pump, how can they afford formula? 10 weeks worth > of formula, roughly, will pay for a pump.
Laying out a large sum at one time can often be much harder to do [harder to have the money available] than having it go out in dribs and drabs. For many many folks that $200 is the electricity, phone and water bill for the month, if paid out at once. Many people live pay check to pay check. Many people. Are you saying that those folks should not have children? and, don't forget the inherent assumption being made throughout this whole group of related threads: that all children are born to adults who are married to each other who have a stable source of income. That is not an accurate assumption.
>Not everyone has a job where they are allowed the time and ability to relax >enough to pump.
It is possible to use formula for when at work, and bf the rest of the time. So far I have not had to do this, but even if I had no time to pump and had to formula feed my son at work, I would still bf him at home. And that would be cheaper than totally formula feeding him. Your argument just doesn't work. If someone is committed to bf their child, she will. I know a while back everyone posted their stories, and just about everybody had had their share of problems.
I must agree with Norma on this one. You have a very defeatist attitude towards breastfeeding. Can't, can't, can't. I have much more faith in women's ability to "get the job done" when it comes to providing for their children. You seem to think that, just because a woman feels she needs to work (in most cases childcare costs alone make working a bad financial decision), that she can't correctly make the other choices she needs to make.
>Please share your experiences of working, pumping and successfully >breastfeeding your children until they weaned themselves. From what you >write it sounds like you have not experienced the working world while a >breastfeeding mother and also that you feel that $200 is not expensive. For >many people that is a very very sizeable amount of money and is beyond their >means. But, the purchase of formula is not, on a weekly basis, as >expensive
Paying for formula week after week is not as expensive as a $200 investment in a breastpump? Economics 101.
>Many mothers feel that they are put in a corner >where they have to do what they do, and they will certainly not appreciate >people coming to them and loudly judging in the manner which you are using >what they felt was the best decision that they could make at the time, .
They may have felt it was the right desisiion at the time, but that doesn't mean it was. Why should we continue to feed this co-dependency by allowing people to believe that every choice they make is a valid one?
>I repeat myself, if you wish to teach, you provide the information without >beating people over the head with it.
Unfortunately, that is the only thing some people understand. More unfortunately still, some people do not even understand this.
>$200 all at once is exactly the same money as $200 spread over 10 weeks. >And, as hard as it is to accept, if you can't afford to pay for the basic >necessities of baby care, perhaps you should think twice about having >children, because, in the greater scheme os things, $200 is chicken feed. >(And if your child gets one or two extra illnesses due to being formula >fed, the doctor bills and antibiotics could well equal $200.
Also, if you are relying on WIC, chances are you don't have health insurance at your job. One or two illnesses can be financially devistating in that case.
just me wrote in message ... >Many people live pay check to pay check. Many >people. Are you saying that those folks should not have children?
If that means that you will not be able to take care of your child, then yes, yes, YES. Why is that so hard to understand? I am not talking about those situations where someone has a child and then gets into a bad financial situation. I am talking about people who are so destitute that they can't give their children basic care.
>>Many people live pay check to pay check. Many >>people. Are you saying that those folks should not have children?
>If that means that you will not be able to take care of your child, then >yes, yes, YES. Why is that so hard to understand? I am not talking about >those situations where someone has a child and then gets into a bad >financial situation. I am talking about people who are so destitute that >they can't give their children basic care.
Gotta agree here. As a troll (snowjob3) put it in response to another thread "Don't you people think, Why have a kid if you can't afford one?" Obnoxiously put, but rather accurate.
Jill Drake wrote in message ... >Gotta agree here. As a troll (snowjob3) put it in response to another >thread "Don't you people think, Why have a kid if you can't afford one?" >Obnoxiously put, but rather accurate.
Sometimes life isn't fair and reality is harsh. I'm sorry if that offends some, but it's just not fair to the children to bring them into a life of poverty and hunger and starvation and suffering. I consider myself very lucky to be in a position to be able to have children and feel badly for those who are not, but I can't pretend to feel it is okay for them to feed the cycle of poverty.
just me <thedewi...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:535R4.36444$g4.941883@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net... : : I have been scanning the WHO site for the last fifteen minutes or so for : info on deaths related to formula feeding. Now that you add the info that : the deaths have increased I am further intrigued as the current generation : of American women is breastfeeding at much higher rates than the American : women of the WWII through 1970's years did. It would seem to me, then, that : those rates should be *declining* as more women breast feed. Now I really : want to see that data, particularly the longitudinal stuff.
Pardon me, Naomi, for leaping in here but,
I believe when Naomi said 'increased deaths due to ff' she was not saying the number of deaths have increased over recent years, but rather that the number of deaths is increased when babies are formula-fed. That is, formula-fed babies are more likely to die than breastfed babies.
I don't have a URL, but here is one of many articles on this:
Van Den Bogaard, C. "Relationship Between Breast Feeding in Early Childhood and Morbidty in a general Population", Fan Med, 1991; 23:510-515
> >Many people live pay check to pay check. Many > >people. Are you saying that those folks should not have children?
> If that means that you will not be able to take care of your child, then > yes, yes, YES. Why is that so hard to understand? I am not talking about > those situations where someone has a child and then gets into a bad > financial situation. I am talking about people who are so destitute that > they can't give their children basic care.
Ah yes, Brave New World Syndrome. We will screen all sexually mature individuals and enforce birth control measures and only the approved adults may reproduce. Ah, I've got it now!
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