: 2. Many infections (some known and some not known yet) can be transmittled by : br-milk, these include HIV, HTLV, CMV, Brucellosis, hepatitis. Not getting
Head over to medline for more info on this. HIV mothers are being encouraged to breastfeed. It seems that the babies are better off getting the immunities and antibodies from their mothers.
Charlotte
: infected might well be seen as a significant health advantage of formula. There : are tragic examples of babies who have been infected with HIV who otherwise : would be alive today if they had been fed formula. What viruses are emerging : that we haven't recognized yet? : 3. Mothers who have a particularly high level of a toxin or drug may be better : off formula feeding. I was reading an abstract on possible exposure to toxins : in breastmilk of mothers who smoke heavily. Some of these toxins can have a very : detrimental effect on infants.
: There are other examples where formula may be more beneficial or less risky -- : not many I will certainly grant. However, this is certainly not an : all-or-nothing situation. Some of these circumstances come down to personal : opinion. Some feel that risking HIV is worth it when we consider the benefits of : bf. Certainly many others disagree. Who is right here?
: In misc.kids.breastfeeding "Brian & Danette - (The Preston's)" <bjp...@televar.com> wrote: : : Exclusively breastfeeding when infected with HIV has been shown to be : : SAFER than breastfeeding and supplementing with formula, and in some : : instances safer than formula feeding exclusively. D
: Cites, cites, cites!!! Can you please provide cites to published : studies substantiating this claim. This is a very interesting : statement, and if true, very important. However, a statement of : this importance cannot be allowed to be made without demostration : of it's validity. Please cite the study or scientific article : which backs up this claim. I would love the see the evidence.
I have one for you. It's a snippet of a longer article, so visit the website for the whole thing.
Use of breastfeeding. Breastfeeding has been discouraged in HIV-1-infected pregnant women in resource-rich areas, because of the known potential for perinatal transmission by mother's milk. However, in developing areas, the World Health Organization has advised that HIV-infected women continue to breastfeed, since death from infectious diarrhea or dehydration from bottlefeeding with highly concentrated formula has been higher than death rates from AIDS. Nonetheless, the recent data demonstrating a linear relationship between duration of breastfeeding and risk of perinatal transmission provides an alternative option in these settings.[81] With the expected risk of approximately 0.5% per month of breastfeeding,[81] a woman might choose to breastfeed for only 3 to 6 months, for example, which would lead to an added risk of approximately 1.5% to 3%. Another difficulty related to the decision to withhold breastfeeding concerns the lack of privacy and confidentiality that such a decision would mandate. Breastfeeding is expected practice in most resource-poor areas of the world; thus, if a woman chooses not to breastfeed, her HIV-1 status immediately becomes suspect.
Karrde wrote in message ... > It is like quoting 150 studies >that all conclude that breastfeeding does not increase you child's chances >of surviving a plane crash.
Something just occurred to me...What if a breastfed baby and a bottle fed baby were in the same crash, the crash occurred on a desert island, and both of the mothers survived as well as the babies? The breastfed baby would have a much better chance of overall long-term survival since the mother would only need to find food for herself to provide for both of them (and even when a mother is temporarily undernourished, she still makes good milk at the expense of her own body for quite a while). Meanwhile, when the bottle baby's supply of formula (which would have been about the amount needed to get from one airport to another) ran out, that baby could be in big trouble. So maybe, just maybe, breastfeeding MAY increase a child's chances of surviving a plane crash... (Is there anything this incredible substance cannot do??) --S. JDall...@att.net
> Karrde wrote in message ... > > It is like quoting 150 studies > >that all conclude that breastfeeding does not increase you child's chances > >of surviving a plane crash.
> Something just occurred to me...What if a breastfed baby and a bottle fed > baby were in the same crash, the crash occurred on a desert island, and both > of the mothers survived as well as the babies? The breastfed baby would > have a much better chance of overall long-term survival since the mother > would only need to find food for herself to provide for both of them (and > even when a mother is temporarily undernourished, she still makes good milk > at the expense of her own body for quite a while). Meanwhile, when the > bottle baby's supply of formula (which would have been about the amount > needed to get from one airport to another) ran out, that baby could be in > big trouble. So maybe, just maybe, breastfeeding MAY increase a child's > chances of surviving a plane crash... > (Is there anything this incredible substance cannot do??) > --S. > JDall...@att.net
OMG--how far is this going to be stretched to "prove" that moms who choose formula for their babies are going to cause their death?
<lschm...@nycap.rr.com> wrote: > "Suzanne Dallapè" <Kar...@smugglers.alliance.org> wrote in message > news:LnnX4.4844$hL1.320972@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > Karrde wrote in message ... > > > It is like quoting 150 studies > > >that all conclude that breastfeeding does not increase you child's > chances > > >of surviving a plane crash.
> > Something just occurred to me...What if a breastfed baby and a bottle fed > > baby were in the same crash, the crash occurred on a desert island, and > both > > of the mothers survived as well as the babies? The breastfed baby would > > have a much better chance of overall long-term survival since the mother > > would only need to find food for herself to provide for both of them (and > > even when a mother is temporarily undernourished, she still makes good > milk > > at the expense of her own body for quite a while). Meanwhile, when the > > bottle baby's supply of formula (which would have been about the amount > > needed to get from one airport to another) ran out, that baby could be in > > big trouble. So maybe, just maybe, breastfeeding MAY increase a child's > > chances of surviving a plane crash... > > (Is there anything this incredible substance cannot do??) > > --S. > > JDall...@att.net
> OMG--how far is this going to be stretched to "prove" that moms who choose > formula for their babies are going to cause their death?
well I was once stranded at O'Hare for several hours in a snow storm and was surrounded by fussy hungry babies and my one happy nursing one. does that count? :)
I'm not Steve, but I can say that the pro-choice position does not consider abortion to be hurting children. I, for one, consider first trimester abortion to be the removal of calls that have the potential to become children, but are not children yet. Second trimester is more a grey area, imo.
> I cannot conceive how you can be so militant about formula hurting children > and still support abortion. Hello?
> >Formula is depriving a child of proper nutrition, or, in effect, > >starving them, whereas smoking is actively poisoning them, the first isa > >crime of ommision, to whit, neglect, the latter commission, assault, but > >both harm children and kill some of them, statistically speaking, which > >is an entirely valid criticism. If more children have bronchitis and > >asthma from not receiving breast milk, and some die, they still die!! > >Steve
Lesa wrote in message <26sX4.5142 >OMG--how far is this going to be stretched to "prove" that moms who choose >formula for their babies are going to cause their death?
I wasn't saying that at all. It was a tongue-in-cheek remark. Someone said that breastfeeding cannot help a child in a plane crash, and I said that maybe yes it could. On the other hand, you have to admit that what I said does ring true! --S. JDall...@att.net
: (Is there anything this incredible substance cannot do??)
It can not unclog my bathroom sink.
Though, I haven't tried, so maybe I'm being too hasty...
Charlotte, in "a mood" -- "The truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it; ignorance may deride it; malice may distort it; but there it is." -Winston Churchill Visit http://www.birth.bc.ca or http://www.birth.bc.ca/birth/prenatal.htm for factoids on birth.
: OMG--how far is this going to be stretched to "prove" that moms who choose : formula for their babies are going to cause their death?
Where do you get that Suzanne's post "proved" that moms who choose formula for their babies are going to cause their death?
From Suzanne's post, I read that breastfeeding would make it easier for a child to live. You mean to tell me that if you, a formula mom, were stranded with a lactating woman, you wouldn't thank your lucky stars? The point is not that formula causes deaths, it is that breastfeeding saves lives.
I would like to share my story with you all. It was very painful. I desperately wanted to breastfeed my daughter. I read all about it and attended classes before she was born. After she was born she did really well for the 2 nights I stayed in the hospital. before I left the hospital they told me she had jaundice and it was 13 points..the next morning it jumped to 22 points so she had to go under the lights at the hospital. The sad thing is her pediatrician told me I would have to stop the breastfeeding for 24 hours while she was under the lights and they gave her formula from the bottle. the first night she was in the hospital i was at home crying my eyes out and doing research on the internet about it. Most of the info I got was that he was wrong and to go to the hospital and to DEMAND to nurse my baby so that is what I did..it wasnt easy but i told them she is MY baby and not theirs and they had no right!! I stayed in the hospital with her that last night while she was under the lights and i couldnt get her to take the breast. she had gotten lazy with the bottle! she cried and pushed me away and shook her head back and forth..on top of not having sleep in 4 nights I was really really getting frustrated and stressed out. the nurses kept coming in there and telling me that she had to eat in order to get rid of the jaundice in order to be able to leave the next day. so i gave her a bottle several times because she wasnt getting anything from me and frankly I was exhausted. I just kept thinking she would go back to it when we got home..i was pumping in the meantime and giving her breastmilk from the bottle. when we got home the next morning she still wouldnt take the breast. I tried everything! I was so determined to do it and i got help from a nurse at the hospital but she still wouldnt and screamed and cried of hunger. I literally had 0 hours sleep in 4 nights..i was up all night..i couldnt sleep after I had the baby for some reason. Exhaustion set in and I gave up after about 2 days of trying. Maybe I should have kept trying but at the time it seemed useless and all I needed to do was sleep because I was really stresses myself out and her as well! The whole family was looking foward to this happy homecoming and all me and the baby could do was cry. So I gave my mom some bottles of formula and i hit the bed and I slept literally one whole day and that night until the next morning. When I woke up the baby was the happiest I have ever seen her and so was I and everything was so wonderful at last. I KNOW that breast is best and I would have done anything at the time and I still wish it would have worked out. she is now a very healthy 16 month old walking around and getting into trouble! So you people can sit there and attack mothers who formula feed if you want but sometimes it just doesn't work out and formula turns out to be the best alternative for whatever is going on in that situation. I did my best and I am happy with my decision and I dont want anyone telling me otherwise. I will try again with the next baby...
Toni Edwards
Suzanne Dallapè <Kar...@smugglers.alliance.org> wrote in message
> Kendra wrote in message <8g9nu5$s0...@nnrp1.deja.com>... > >You still told a woman who could not nurse that the formula she gave > >her child - OUT OF NECESSITY - was inferior.
> It is. No matter how you decide to state it, that is a truthful statement.
> >But formula has saved lives for > >women like her and myself when the breastmilk didn't come in. For me, > >formula was the ONLY thing I had available. In my case it wasn't the > >inferior product.
> For one thing, NOBODY on MKB has EVER said that formula should NEVER be > given in the case of a true necessity. I am so sick of hearing that I (as > one of the "you people" I so often hear about) think formula should never, > in any circumstances, be given. The women on MKB are intelligent enough to > understand that formula is a life-saving product that definitely has a place > among a limited population. But this still doesn't mean that it is not > inferior to breast milk. When your breast milk does not come in due to a > medical, hormonal, or structural difficulty, you might have to give formula, > but breast milk is still superior. There is really no way around this fact. > The only times formula is superior to breast milk is if the milk is from > someone who takes recreational drugs or excessive alcohol, who is having > chemotherapy, or is HIV+. In those cases, formula is superior to THAT > WOMAN'S breast milk. But in all cases, breast milk in general (even if from > a woman other than the baby's natural mother) is superior to formula.
> >Or are you like the person who once told me I should have let my child > >die rather than feed him formula?
> Nobody on MKB would ever say that, and I resent the implication. You talk > about sensitivity. Why can't breastfeeding advocates get some sympathy too? > Instead of saying, "So you think my baby should have starved?" (which, of > course, nobody has said), why not say, "You are right, breast milk is the > superior food. I wish I could have produced it for my own baby." This > states your case, acknowledges the truth, and doesn't insult anyone. AND, > you will get a lot more sympathy with this tact than this bitterness that > you are displaying about breastfeeding advocates. > --S. > JDall...@att.net
> But when we DO provide information, we are told that THAT is making women > feeling guilty, and that we are calling ff mothers bad mothers. > If we say "breastmilk is healther" we get 20 anecdotes about how HER > formula fed baby was never a sick a day in his life. When we say that the > great majority of women CAN breastfeed, we get 20 anecdotes about how HER > milk never came in... When we say that it is important to breastfeed if > you can (Not 'we will force you to breastfeed against your will') we are > accused of calling ff mothers bad mothers.
> Saying > ANYTHING short of "it doesn't matter how you feed your babies, because > formula is just as good as breastmilk and all the studies that say > otherwise are lies" inevitably leads to cries of "How DARE you say I'm a > bad mother for giving my baby formula!"
> Help doctors > > and others to be come breast-feeding friendly, then get out of the > > faces of those women who make a decision you dislike for whatever > > reason. IT IS THEIR CHOICE.
> I don't think anyone here says that they go up to ff mothers and criticize > them for their choices.
> Naomi
You just don't get it do you? In fact you don't even try to to get IT. You (and I am generally referring to bf zealots) "bash" these ff women, and then when called on it step back and say 'what did i do?', and accuse these women of whining about feeling guilty. Then on top of it all, to try to give your rant some validity, say that all these women are saying that formula is equal to breast milk. Try to understand, bm is best, has always been best and will always be best for babies. With education and encouragement more women will go in this direction to nourish their babies. Encouragement is NOT, "well all the studies say bm is best so you have no business feeding any other way, ...etc. Parenthood is a very emotionally charged endevour. Most "human" parents constantly second guess themselves, for the most part, they do the best they can and when confronted with the implication that they are not doing the best they can (of course this also implies that they are not good parents) they may have some sense of guilt. Not because they actually didn't do the best they could have, everyone needs to feel perfect especially when it comes to our children, even when we know we will never be. If a parent ff, it is their choice, it is also NOT a bad choice as formula is not poison, of course it would be preferable for a baby to bf for all the benefits we know they receive in bm but there are a whole lot of equally and significantly more important choices parents will make in their childs life, and you know what, for the most part everything will be just fine.
toni wrote in message <392e6...@news-out.newszilla.com>... >I would like to share my story with you all. It was very painful. I >desperately wanted to breastfeed my daughter.
What a shame. Another example of the "medical community" destroying a child's chance to breastfeed. My sympathies, and I hope you have much better luck next time around.
>I KNOW that breast is best and I would >have done anything at the time and I still wish it would have worked out. >she is now a very healthy 16 month old walking around and getting into >trouble! So you people can sit there and attack mothers who formula feed if >you want but sometimes it just doesn't work out and formula turns out to be >the best alternative for whatever is going on in that situation. I did my >best and I am happy with my decision and I dont want anyone telling me >otherwise. I will try again with the next baby.
Toni, with all due respect, you seem to me to be judging the bfing advocates based on what _others_ say their attitude is rather than based on what they say themselves. Nobody has criticized mothers who ff in situations like yours. Your story is sad, it is heartbreaking, and it is tragic. I bet not a person at mkb reads it without hurting for you. You did do what you could under lousy circumstances. But maybe, just maybe, if a bfing advocate in your area had been loud and public _before_ your baby was born, you would have heard the information you needed before it was too late. You did the right thing, you came straight home from the hospital and checked out the information your doctor had given you, found out it was wrong, and went back and tried to fix it. But wouldn't it have been easier if somebody had mentioned jaundice and how commonly drs tell mothers not to bf and how this is all wrong _before_ it was an emotionally charged situation for you? You are not alone. Telling mothers to stop bfing jaundiced babies is very common. It happened to me, and I didn't have the internet, and we lived on a military base overseas so I didn't have any access to a true second opinion, either. In my case, I was able to continue bfing, but I don't kid myself that it was anything I did, it was just luck. Because this is so common a mistake for pedes to make, I tell people about it all the time now. I tell them when they are pregnant, not after the baby is born and their bfing has already been sabotaged. If more people did this, you and I might have been able to avoid a problem altogether.
Three of our seven children were ff as infants. Two were adopted when they were older, so it was totally out of my hands. But I have another biological child where I was not successful with bfing. The story is too long to go into here and now, but I have told it here before. Under the circumstances at that time and in that place, I did not feel I had any option but to go to formula. In a way, I was right, because by the time a chain of circumstances took place, I did end up in a place of no return. But there were points all along that chain where I could have altered circumstances if I'd known better, or if I'd thought ahead a little more. One mistake I made was not pumping when my sick child spent a week in the hospital, unable to nurse because of the IV's in her head. That ruined my supply, and we went to formula, worse, we went to soy formula. Now I didn't think about pumping because I was more concerned that my child live than I was with how I would feed her if she did live. The fact remains, that I made some bad decisions and neglected to make some good ones and that caused my child to end up on formula unnecessarily- meaning that by the time it happened it was necessary, but if I'd been thinking more clearly and been better informed, it wouldn't have gotten to that point.
All this long rambling to explain that I have shared this story in all the details I'm leaving out here on this ng before, and not one single person jumped on me, called me a bad person, or tried to make me feel guilty for the mistakes I made. In fact, just the opposite. Everybody who replied to me tried to encourage me and assure me that I'd done the best I could do and that was all anybody could ask. I received nothing but sympathy. People made more excuses for me than I've ever made for myself. I don't believe there is a single person here who doesn't sympathize with your situation. What they all want is to do what they can to protect somebody else from going through what you did when it was so unnecessary if your pede had only been better informed or if sometime long before your child was born you'd been given the information that would have equipped you to deal with it.
Sometimes formula _is_ the best alternative for what is going on in a situation, but we all want to do what we can to help people avoid getting into those situations that _are_ avoidable.
Because of mistakes I made during a highly emotionally charged situation I ended by having to formula feed my child. Every study I read about the benefits of bm literally punches me in the chest. It hurts, it makes me sad, it grieves me, and I still sometimes feel guilty. Well, I can deal with that in two ways. I can react with denial, the way that so many of those attacking the bfing advocates seem to do, by refusing to accept that formula is in any way inferior to bm. Forgive me, but that way seems selfish and shallow to me. ( You have not reacted that way, this isn't a personal remark, btw)
OR, I can choose to let my sorrow over my mistakes open my mouth and flow out in compassion and a desire to help others do better than I did in similar situations by telling the truth about the wonderful benefits of breastmilk. This seems the more noble to me.
To deny the benefits of bm because I had to formula feed seems like to me something like falling in a ditch, and not only not warning people about it once I get out, but sitting by encouraging passersby to fall in the ditch to make myself feel better.
Sometimes, as you say, formula doesn't work out. But sometimes it doesn't work out because of missing information. And the more we speak out, the more that information will be available to those who need it _when_ they need it, not ten years after the fact. Blessings,
Kanga
Beauty tip of the month: For attractive lips, speak words of kindness. - Audrey Hepburn
>You (and I am generally referring to bf zealots) "bash" these ff women, and >then when called on it step back and say 'what did i do?',
Who does this bashing and when and where does it occur? I _have_ personally ff one of my children and most people here know that and nobody has bashed me or criticized me.
>when confronted with the implication that they are not doing >the best they can (of course this also implies that they are not good >parents) they may have some sense of guilt.
But some people are so insecure that the mere fact that I do bf, with no comments from me at all, is an 'implication that they are not doing the best they can,' and they clearly resent it. We can only be responsible for our own words and actions. People own their own reactions.
>If a parent ff, it is their choice, it is also NOT a bad choice as formula >is not poison,
It is not the best choice, and it is inarguably not the best choice, and not likeing that will not change it.
>but there are a whole lot of equally and >significantly more important choices parents will make in their childs life,
And we tend to wander into discussing those too, but this is the bfing ng, after all. So we talk about breastfeeding.
>and you know what, for the most part everything will be just fine.
What my parents said when they learned I wouldn't travel with them without a carseat: "We didn't have them for you and everything turned out just fine."
Just fine is too nebulous for me. I want to do the best I can, not accept whatever is just fine. Blessings,
Kanga
Beauty tip of the month: For attractive lips, speak words of kindness. - Audrey Hepburn
In misc.kids.breastfeeding toni <t...@tecinfo.com> wrote: [snip very long story of poster having to wean baby to formula bottles due to appalling poor medical advice in the hopsital and total lack of professional support.]
> have done anything at the time and I still wish it would have worked out. > she is now a very healthy 16 month old walking around and getting into > trouble! So you people can sit there and attack mothers who formula feed if > you want but sometimes it just doesn't work out and formula turns out to be > the best alternative for whatever is going on in that situation. I did my > best and I am happy with my decision and I dont want anyone telling me > otherwise. I will try again with the next baby...
Except that the best alternative for your situation would have been for the HOSPITAL staff to have educated themselves about jaundice and breastfeeding, and to not have told you had to wean for 24 hours at a such a critical time, and to have offered you help in getting your baby to latch on rather than just telling you to give a bottle instead. You did the best you could under difficult circumstances. You were badly served by those who were supposed to be helping you. And THAT is what is sad, not the fact that you have a healthy, formula fed 16 month old.
Toni, my heart goes out to you - what a stressful way to begin motherhood! It sounds like your daughter is hale and hearty now and that is the important thing. Good luck to you in the future.
Discussion subject changed to "Breastfeeding studies, was Re: Breast is best, was Re: Internet survey - should mothers breastfeedin public?" by Corinna Esmeralda Schultz
On the subject of studies, what about studies which take into acocunt confounding factors such as attachment parenting, cosleeping, "happiness" of the baby (isn't happiness associated with lower incidence of disease in adults?), etc. which tend to occur along side breastfeeding? How about "ecological" breastfeeding vs. cultural breastfeeding? How about child-led weaning (avg 3 years, I think) vs. mother-led weaning (avg 1 year, I think)?
It seems to me all these factors, including the emotional environment of the home would affect the child's health. Are there any studies which cntrol for these things?
>> CAROL KENNON wrote in message <392C8C7F.7BACD...@worldnet.att.net>...
>> <snip cites> >> So? What these studies tell us is that there are some illnesses and >> diseases that breastfeeding does not effect. It is like quoting 150 studies >> that all conclude that breastfeeding does not increase you child's chances >> of surviving a plane crash.
>There are studies which support many different benefits of bf. There are often >also studies which dispute the presence of many of these benefits. Then there >are studies which challenge the magnitude of the benefit previously reported by
Discussion subject changed to "Breastfeeding studies, was Re: Breast is best, was Re: Internet survey - should mothers breastfeedin public?" by just me
> On the subject of studies, what about studies which take into acocunt > confounding factors such as attachment parenting, cosleeping, > "happiness" of the baby (isn't happiness associated with lower > incidence of disease in adults?), etc. which tend to occur along > side breastfeeding? How about "ecological" breastfeeding vs. > cultural breastfeeding? How about child-led weaning (avg 3 years, > I think) vs. mother-led weaning (avg 1 year, I think)?
> It seems to me all these factors, including the emotional environment > of the home would affect the child's health. Are there any > studies which cntrol for these things?
> In article <392D4172.509F1...@hotmail.com>, > Colleen <col12...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >> <snip cites> > >> So? What these studies tell us is that there are some illnesses and > >> diseases that breastfeeding does not effect. It is like quoting 150 studies > >> that all conclude that breastfeeding does not increase you child's chances > >> of surviving a plane crash.
> >There are studies which support many different benefits of bf. There are often > >also studies which dispute the presence of many of these benefits. Then there > >are studies which challenge the magnitude of the benefit previously reported by
In misc.kids.breastfeeding just me <thedewi...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> What is "ecological" breastfeeding and "cultural breastfeeding"?
Ecological bf is similar to attachment parenting, in that baby is kept with the mother constantly, and fed on demand. (And is usually assumed to be nursing VERy frequently, as much as several times per hour.) "Cultural breastfeeding" I'm not sure about, but I think it would mean feeding on a strict schedule, never picking up the baby except for feeding ... IOW, what attachment parents think everyone else is doing...
>> On the subject of studies, what about studies which take into acocunt >> confounding factors such as attachment parenting, cosleeping, >> "happiness" of the baby (isn't happiness associated with lower >> incidence of disease in adults?), etc. which tend to occur along >> side breastfeeding? How about "ecological" breastfeeding vs. >> cultural breastfeeding? How about child-led weaning (avg 3 years, >> I think) vs. mother-led weaning (avg 1 year, I think)?
>> It seems to me all these factors, including the emotional environment >> of the home would affect the child's health. Are there any >> studies which cntrol for these things?
>> In article <392D4172.509F1...@hotmail.com>, >> Colleen <col12...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >Karrde wrote:
>> >> CAROL KENNON wrote in message > <392C8C7F.7BACD...@worldnet.att.net>...
>> >> <snip cites> >> >> So? What these studies tell us is that there are some > illnesses and >> >> diseases that breastfeeding does not effect. It is like quoting 150 > studies >> >> that all conclude that breastfeeding does not increase you child's > chances >> >> of surviving a plane crash.
>> >There are studies which support many different benefits of bf. There are > often >> >also studies which dispute the presence of many of these benefits. Then > there >> >are studies which challenge the magnitude of the benefit previously > reported by
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