chelp <ch...@my-dejanews.com> wrote: > Why? It happened to me. I was giving my daughter a bottle in the > school office (she was getting supplemental bottles at that time because > she had problems and it took us several months to get "only breast") and a > woman looked at us and said "don't you know how good breastfeeding is?" > I was totally devastated by her comment. Breastfeeding was such a > struggle at that point and I had no idea if it would even work out.
Sorry? Devastated by this comment? Yes, I agree that it was a bit presumptious for a stranger to say. But the appropriate response would be "Yes, I do know. And I do breastfeed her most of the time but, due to some problems, she needs an occassional supplemental bottle." I really don't see how the remark qualifies, however, as 'hateful' or 'an attack'. If THIS is the kind of remark that causes ff mothers to feel that bf mothers are 'attcking them' or making 'hateful remarks' or 'calling them bad mothers for giving formula', then I think the ff mothers are simply being over-sensitive.
> Now, I could have explained my situation to her and gotten her > "permission" (as many people here seem to think they are allowed to > do--give women permission to bottle feed) but why should I be required to > do that?
You shouldn't be required to. But if the remark bothered you, a simply explanation of the fact that yes, you DO know that breastfeeding is good would have been quite reasonable.
> Harmom2 wrote in message ... > >how do you know why a mother isn't BF?
> I don't, and that has no relevance to the stance I mentioned. I said I > don't like it when women CHOOSE to bottle feed when they are ABLE to > breastfeed. I am talking about people in general, not individuals. I don't > go up to unknown women and tell them off for bottle feeding, but if someone > CHOOSES to do it, I have a problem with that, whether or not I know the > woman. I have a problem with the masses of women who CHOOSE to formula > feed, not those who do it becasue they have no other choice. I thought I > already said that!
> >I'd say they were way out of bounds. How about you?
> It doesn't matter to what I am saying. If a baby was adopted, I certainly > would have no problem with formula (as I KEEP SAYING). Why is it, when I > say something as simple as I DON'T LIKE IT WHEN WOMEN *CHOOSE* TO USE > FORMULA IF THEY *DON'T* HAVE TO, people still think I am bad-mouthing > mothers who HAVE to bottle feed? As I said before, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY > MOUTH. > --S. > JDall...@att.net
I'm sorry I didn't intend to put words in your mouth. I don't like it when women that could BF choose to FF either, I am simply sensitive to the fact that BF mothers have a tendancy to be anti-ff in response to harrassment . I was trying to point out that we need to be examples, not detectives. If I had a friend who chose to FF instead of BF I certainly would give her all of the information at my disposal, I wouldn't hound her until she gave in. I've seen quite a few posts on this NG that made some people sound like Nipple Nazis. It's very irritating.
-- Beckie
"I thought we all were the children of God?" Esmerelda- Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame
Charlotte Millington wrote in message <391e5...@news.victoria.tc.ca>... >sue (s...@ao1.com) wrote:
>: LOL I am glad you are so proud of yourself!
>I am. I made a commitment to my baby and I am keeping it. I didn't "sell >out" and trade in my daughter for a better job with more money. I don't >have a nice car or a nice house or a nice wardrobe. But I do have a child >who knows, beyond measure, that she is the most important kid in the >world. I am very proud of the effort I've made.
> jennifer (kerrie.j...@ns.sympatico.ca) wrote: > : To work. Not all of us have the option of having a husband to pay for us to stay at home.
> I was a single mother for Brigitte's first three years. Not only did I > not have a husband who was willing to pay for my leisurely life of > bon-bons and sewing clubs, I couldn't even track down my ex for child > support.
I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not mean that bon-bon comment like it came off ... -- Colette l n r p l x u s a t r i p c o d o t c o m ^^^^^^reduce for email^^^^^^
: Absolutely wonderful! That's exactly the way people should be. Your story : should be an inspiration to EVERYONE. : --S.
: Charlotte Millington wrote in message <391e5...@news.victoria.tc.ca>... : >sue (s...@ao1.com) wrote:
: > : >: LOL I am glad you are so proud of yourself! : > : >I am. I made a commitment to my baby and I am keeping it. I didn't "sell : >out" and trade in my daughter for a better job with more money. I don't : >have a nice car or a nice house or a nice wardrobe. But I do have a child : >who knows, beyond measure, that she is the most important kid in the : >world. I am very proud of the effort I've made.
-- "The truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it; ignorance may deride it; malice may distort it; but there it is." -Winston Churchill Visit http://www.birth.bc.ca!
§Colette§ (lnrpl...@ripco.com) wrote: : Charlotte Millington wrote:
: > : > jennifer (kerrie.j...@ns.sympatico.ca) wrote: : > : To work. Not all of us have the option of having a husband to pay for us to stay at home. : > : > I was a single mother for Brigitte's first three years. Not only did I : > not have a husband who was willing to pay for my leisurely life of : > bon-bons and sewing clubs, I couldn't even track down my ex for child : > support.
: I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not mean : that bon-bon comment like it came off ...
Not at all. I can't say I know any married woman who gets to sit around eating bon-bons. But, you wanna talk stereotypes, it does seem that these women spend a lot of time cleaning up after their husbands.
Come to think of it, I've seen some massive disasters created by husbands that the average two-year old couldn't even manage.
Alas, it seems the only bob-bons anyone I know gets comes from the hershey's kisses snitched from the kids' easter baskets.
Charlotte -- "The truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it; ignorance may deride it; malice may distort it; but there it is." -Winston Churchill Visit http://www.birth.bc.ca!
> > Why? It happened to me. I was giving my daughter a bottle in the > > school office (she was getting supplemental bottles at that time because > > she had problems and it took us several months to get "only breast") and a > > woman looked at us and said "don't you know how good breastfeeding is?"
> > I was totally devastated by her comment. Breastfeeding was such a > > struggle at that point and I had no idea if it would even work out.
> Sorry? Devastated by this comment?
Yes, I was! Are you saying that I don't know my own feelings? Why do you feel qualified/entitiled to dismiss my feelings.
I don't know if you have ever had any trouble with breastfeeding. For me it was a highly emotional issue.
Yes, I agree that it was a bit
> presumptious for a stranger to say. But the appropriate response would be > "Yes, I do know. And I do breastfeed her most of the time but, due to > some problems, she needs an occassional supplemental bottle." I really > don't see how the remark qualifies, however, as 'hateful' or 'an attack'.
Again, I don't think you should be putting words into my mouth. I did try to explain our situation (but again WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO EXPLAIN! IT'S NOT HER BUSINESS!) but she just went on about how she nursed and how wonderful it was, etc., etc. basically congratulating herself. I felt that she was just using the fact that she saw me with a bottle to pat herself on the back. She was not interested in having a discussion with me, she just wanted to lecture me on the virtues of breastmilk.
> If THIS is the kind of remark that causes ff mothers to feel that bf > mothers are 'attcking them' or making 'hateful remarks' or 'calling them > bad mothers for giving formula', then I think the ff mothers are simply > being over-sensitive.
I think that if (the generic) you go up to a bottle feeding mother and say "don't you know how good breastmilk is?" you are implying that she is a bad mother. You are free to disagree with me and I am free to find you to be a rude person (again all the generic you, not Naomi in particular).
I think that all these discussions around "I just don't understand how a woman could choose *not* to bf" are unproductive. At least, I don't think they will help increase the %ages of women who BF past the first few weeks. If all the energy that has gone into these various threads instead went into letter writing campaigns to state legislatures to legalize NIP, to various medical associations encouraging them to promote BF, to various hospitals to get them to adopt baby-friendly policies, etc., maybe things could change.
As it is the nipple wars come and go with each side sticking firmly to it's arguments and no minds changed.
> > Now, I could have explained my situation to her and gotten her > > "permission" (as many people here seem to think they are allowed to > > do--give women permission to bottle feed) but why should I be required to > > do that?
> You shouldn't be required to. But if the remark bothered you, a simply > explanation of the fact that yes, you DO know that breastfeeding is good > would have been quite reasonable.
Yes, if a person is interested in a discussion. But if a person is only interested in lecturing, it won't matter.
It is very painful to want to nurse and to be unable to do so, whether it's because of a lack of milk production (that 2% that keeps floating around) or because your baby is unable to nurse. If your baby is unable to nurse, it's probably because of additional problems such as prematurity which are themselves painful.
I know that, because of my experience, I look at all new mothers differently.
kangama...@aol.comWA.rez. (Kanga C.) wrote: > Somebody said that bfing mothers repeatedly gave her relative a hard time for > ffing, even after she would say that she had adopted the child.
> Among other things, I replied:
> >I find it hard to believe that _anybody_ really did this in the > >> numbers you suggest.
> And explained that among many other problems with that scenario which caused me > to suspend belief is that anybody who is an outspoken enough proponent of bfing > to tell a stranger to breastfeed would also know enough to know that it's not > always possible to lactate an adopted child. > Note that I gave two reason for my disbelief- the large numbers of people who > supposedly walked up to a total stranger and rudely harrassed her and the > presumed ignorance about bfing an adopted child.
> Yet Lisa still asks:
> >Why?
> And as proof gives an incident, one incident, that supposedly proves that large > numbers of bfing nazis converge on ffing mothers to make hateful, rude, > harrassing comments.
I offered my experience, that is all. It did happen to me, and the person in question did not stop her lecture when I explained why I was not bf my daughter at that particular time (which seems quite similar to someone not stopping when told the baby is adopted).
> Lisa, dear, I am sorry that one stranger one time made an unwelcome remark to > you regarding giving your baby a bottle. But I still do not believe the > previous poster. I do not believe that this happens often and repeatedly to > any single ffing mother primarily because of the sheer numbers she mentions. > That's ridiculous. I believe one, or perhaps two women said something out of > line or maybe even only had expressions on their faces which the poster > interpreted as negative and she has exaggerated for the sake of making a
point.
I'm going to assume that you meant that "dear" in a nice way. It's hard to tell in writing, it can come off as condescending.
I also don't believe that it happens often--I thought you were saying that you doubt that it happens *ever*. And, I have to say that in the two months that I was giving my daughter bottles in public I got one negative remark/lecture. I have never gotten a negative remark in the 3+ years that I have been NIP (three different children). So, if I extrapolated I would guess that the negative comments are more prevalent.
> Your story of one woman asking a simple question, "don't you know how good > breastfeeding is?" does not prove that hoards of women descend upon innocent > bottle feeders at the mall like vultures heading to raw meat. > It proves only that human beings are sometimes thoughtless.
She didn't just ask a simple question, she lectured me about the goodness of bf, didn't listen to my response that I knew about the benefits of bf.
> As the mother of 7 children, I cannot tell you the number of times a total > stranger has asked me, "Don't you know what causes that?" That strikes me as > very similar to the situation you describe. It's rude, it's out of line, but > there is no need for me to flay myself because somebody forgot her manners. > The correct answer to such questions is simply "Yes, thank-you, I do know," and > turn your back, signifying the conversation is over. > It is not reasonable to somehow extrapolate mass persecution from one question > on one occasion from one person.
Really--I wasn't extrapolating mass persecution, just offering my experience as an example. You said you couldn't believe that it happens--well it does.
> "Elfanie" <elfanieNOS...@soderblom.net> wrote in message > news:39220457.141939757@co.news.verio.net... > > On Wed, 10 May 2000 06:29:02 GMT, "Suzanne Dallapè" > > <Kar...@smugglers.alliance.org> wrote: > > And working? isn't it a choice to work? she could stay home if it's > > a two parent home...or she could take welfare and stay home. (yes, > > I'm being extreme here)
> Excuse me but you just hit a button! It would be *really* *REALLY* nice if > I could have stayed home with my son, but being the person who can pull down > the [much] higher income in this family, *I* am the one working. Further, > many of the women who work for me are in the same shoes: their hubbies are > unemployed, disabled, not as highly educated, or they require two incomes to > make ends meet [I mean, keep the roof over their heads, not go out partying > nightly]. So, how about the bunch of us just stay at home and collect > AFDC, which by the way you only can collect for twenty four months ever in > your life now, and use Medicaid to pay for junior's medical care and live > off your tax dollars since you are so convinced that this is preferable to > using ff.
Now, I know that the canadian experience is different than the american difference since we can have up to 6 months paid maternity/parental leave, but, working does not necessarily equate formula feeding. I for one continued to nurse my daughter almost 2 years after I went back to work!!! Sure, by then she was no longer exclusively breast fed and she WAS getting SOME formula, though, until she turned about 18 months, breastmilk STILL composed most of her diet. And I didn't even pump any milk for her, because I simply was no good at it and was not in a position to take regular breaks in order to keep the pumping going.
Some women chose a mixed feeding approach: formula while they are away from baby and breastmilk when they are with baby. Others pump. Some have their little ones in a day-care facility close enough to their workplace that they can actually go and nurse the babies. Others have the baby brought to them. There are even some lucky women who can bring their baby to work with them!!! However, I believe, the majority pump breastmilk and the baby is given breast milk in a bottle or a cup.
Sure, that is certainly not the best way to nurse a baby, but a lot women do it.
Now, you and others may be in a position that you had to return to work VERY early in the baby's life and your supply was not established, hence you couldn't keep going. But, at least, give it a try. If it doesn't work, well, it doesn't and you've done your best. But, IMHO, to not even attempt nursing because you know you have to return to work is a cop out at the same level as not attempting to nurse because you can't measure how much milk baby is getting is a cop out: it's an excuse. And not a very good excuse.
> I also forgot: > 10. Having chemotherapy > 11. Being separated from baby for a significant period of time, such as with > an accident, debilitating illness, or kidnapping.
Actually, I recently read of this very sad case where not only did the newborn baby require extensive surgery, days after her birth, but her mother had a very serious condition that set her on antibiotics so strong that she could not nurse her infant. Even though she was so sick she could hardly breathe, she managed to pump and to keep up her supply, so much so that when she was reunited with her daughter, 1 month later, she was able to nurse, no problems. That baby had only nursed once or twice in her life!!!
Just to say that where there is a will, there is a way.
> toto wrote in message ... > >On Tue, 9 May 2000 16:28:16 -0400, "Marie" <mommydo...@hotmail.com> > >You have no clue about the circumstances of some women's lives > >that might make breastfeeding psychologically painful for them.
> Don't even start with the "psychologically painful" garbage again. If you > are that messed up, you should not be having children.
Oh, please, Jerry, don't even go there. Psychological trauma and mental health are very REAL issues, issues that can lead to all kinds of problems.
On a matter totally unrelated to breastfeeding, my sister was quite marked by illness and death when she was very young (less than 3 years old). Two people she loved dearly and who loved her just as much passed away within 9 months of each other and that was at the time our youngest brother was born, usurping her place as the youngest of the family. She is now in her mid-thirties and is an hypocondriach (sp?). Not only does bad health mean severe illness to her, it means death. And she is sooo afraid that her being sick will lead to her death, that she actually makes herself sick. And I mean VERY sick, bed-ridden sick. Now if something as simple and natural as the passing away of older, though cherished, relatives can lead to something this intense, imagine what other more serious traumas can lead to!!!
Yes, it's possible to overcome those issues, but it might, and probably is, very difficult to do.
> Karrde wrote: > The experience I wanted to relate was the self-consiousness both my wife and I > felt when feeding formula in public, as if all the people who were like we had > been were looking at us and judging. Not very pleasant. Even though we were > actually saving our child's life, it felt like we were being viewed as > second-rate parents (and a number of comments to this effect were actually > hurled at us by strangers).
This really hits home. I used to be like this about parenting. I would really be angry at those parents who could not discipline those unruly children. What right did they have to be parents if they couldn't bring them up right? And so on, and so on. Then, like you, life hit us hard: our oldest has ADHD, the most severe form of this condition, compounded by CAPD, which is not a behavior disorder but can bring on behavior issues because the child cannot process sounds adequately and is presently being evaluated for Tourette's Syndrome, which can bring on all kinds of other behaviors. Since our son is also EXTREMELY intelligent, he is also extremely bored in the regular classrooms. Well, needless to say, we are now the parents of a VERY unruly child. And I can only think of all those strangers and not so strangers we judged so harshly, and wonder: what if, like us, they tried their very best and STILL did not succeed?
Somebody said that bfing mothers repeatedly gave her relative a hard time for ffing, even after she would say that she had adopted the child.
Among other things, I replied:
>I find it hard to believe that _anybody_ really did this in the >> numbers you suggest.
And explained that among many other problems with that scenario which caused me to suspend belief is that anybody who is an outspoken enough proponent of bfing to tell a stranger to breastfeed would also know enough to know that it's not always possible to lactate an adopted child. Note that I gave two reason for my disbelief- the large numbers of people who supposedly walked up to a total stranger and rudely harrassed her and the presumed ignorance about bfing an adopted child.
Yet Lisa still asks:
>Why?
And as proof gives an incident, one incident, that supposedly proves that large numbers of bfing nazis converge on ffing mothers to make hateful, rude, harrassing comments.
Lisa, dear, I am sorry that one stranger one time made an unwelcome remark to you regarding giving your baby a bottle. But I still do not believe the previous poster. I do not believe that this happens often and repeatedly to any single ffing mother primarily because of the sheer numbers she mentions. That's ridiculous. I believe one, or perhaps two women said something out of line or maybe even only had expressions on their faces which the poster interpreted as negative and she has exaggerated for the sake of making a point. Your story of one woman asking a simple question, "don't you know how good breastfeeding is?" does not prove that hoards of women descend upon innocent bottle feeders at the mall like vultures heading to raw meat. It proves only that human beings are sometimes thoughtless. As the mother of 7 children, I cannot tell you the number of times a total stranger has asked me, "Don't you know what causes that?" That strikes me as very similar to the situation you describe. It's rude, it's out of line, but there is no need for me to flay myself because somebody forgot her manners. The correct answer to such questions is simply "Yes, thank-you, I do know," and turn your back, signifying the conversation is over. It is not reasonable to somehow extrapolate mass persecution from one question on one occasion from one person. Blessings,
Kanga
Beauty tip of the month: For *beautiful hair*, let a child run his or her fingers through it once a day. - Audrey Hepburn
>> > Why? It happened to me. I was giving my daughter a bottle in the >> > school office (she was getting supplemental bottles at that time because >> > she had problems and it took us several months to get "only breast") and a >> > woman looked at us and said "don't you know how good breastfeeding is?"
>> > I was totally devastated by her comment. Breastfeeding was such a >> > struggle at that point and I had no idea if it would even work out.
>> Sorry? Devastated by this comment? > Yes, I was! Are you saying that I don't know my own feelings? Why do > you feel qualified/entitiled to dismiss my feelings.
I was not dismissing them.I was surprised by them.
> Yes, I agree that it was a bit >> presumptious for a stranger to say. But the appropriate response would be >> "Yes, I do know. And I do breastfeed her most of the time but, due to >> some problems, she needs an occassional supplemental bottle." I really >> don't see how the remark qualifies, however, as 'hateful' or 'an attack'. > Again, I don't think you should be putting words into my mouth.
I was not putting words into your mouth. (That would mean telling you what you DID say.) I was simply suggesting a reasonable response to the comment.
I
> did try to explain our situation (but again WHY SHOULD I HAVE TO EXPLAIN! > IT'S NOT HER BUSINESS!) but she just went on about how she nursed and how > wonderful it was, etc., etc. basically congratulating herself.
You didn't say that the first time. But yes, since you were breastfeeding your child most of the time, you surely could have agreed that bf is indeed wonderful, and that you enjoy it very much and are looking forward to the time when you will no longer need to give her any bottles. I'm still not grasping how her comment was 'hateful' or labeling you a bad mother.
I felt
> that she was just using the fact that she saw me with a bottle to pat > herself on the back. She was not interested in having a discussion with > me, she just wanted to lecture me on the virtues of breastmilk.
So why on earth didn't you tell her that you DO know the virtues of breastmilk and that, in fact, your daughter gets breastmilk at most of her feedings?
>> If THIS is the kind of remark that causes ff mothers to feel that bf >> mothers are 'attcking them' or making 'hateful remarks' or 'calling them >> bad mothers for giving formula', then I think the ff mothers are simply >> being over-sensitive. > I think that if (the generic) you go up to a bottle feeding mother and > say "don't you know how good breastmilk is?" you are implying that she is > a bad mother. You are free to disagree with me and I am free to find you > to be a rude person (again all the generic you, not Naomi in particular).
As I said, the comment certainly qualified as persumptuous and forward. But no, not hateful. Hateful would be SAYING (or suggesting) "you are a bad mother." I disagree that the statement implies that you are a bad mother, any more than saying 'breastmilk is preferable to formula' implies that all ff mothers are bad mothers.
> I think that all these discussions around "I just don't understand how > a woman could choose *not* to bf" are unproductive. At least, I don't > think they will help increase the %ages of women who BF past the first few > weeks. If all the energy that has gone into these various threads instead > went into letter writing campaigns to state legislatures to legalize NIP,
NIP is already legal in every state.
>> You shouldn't be required to. But if the remark bothered you, a simply >> explanation of the fact that yes, you DO know that breastfeeding is good >> would have been quite reasonable. > Yes, if a person is interested in a discussion. But if a person is > only interested in lecturing, it won't matter.
In which case you then ignore her lectures and go on with feeding your baby.
> It is very painful to want to nurse and to be unable to do so, whether > it's because of a lack of milk production (that 2% that keeps floating > around) or because your baby is unable to nurse. If your baby is unable > to nurse, it's probably because of additional problems such as prematurity > which are themselves painful.
Yes, I can see how it would indeed be painful. But other people should not have to walk on eggs and fear saying anything about the benefits of bf lest the person they are talking to is dealing with guilt feelings about her inability to breastfeed. (Or breastfeed without any supplements.)
chelp <ch...@my-dejanews.com> wrote: > In article <20000514211423.13556.00001...@ng-ct1.aol.com>, > kangama...@aol.comWA.rez. (Kanga C.) wrote: > She didn't just ask a simple question, she lectured me about the > goodness of bf, didn't listen to my response that I knew about the > benefits of bf.
What you said in your post to me was that she talked to you about how SHE had bf, and how much she had enjoyed it. Sounds to me more like one mother talking to another about the pleasures of parenting, not a lecture about the evils of formula and how only bad mothers give their babies formula.
> Really--I wasn't extrapolating mass persecution, just offering my >experience as an example. You said you couldn't believe that it >happens--well it does.
No, I said I didn't believe that it happens in _such numbers_ as the original poster said. See:
>>I find it hard to believe that _anybody_ really did this in the >> >> numbers you suggest.
That was in my first post. Notice the important words "in the numbers you suggest."
>> Note that I gave two reason for my disbelief- the large numbers of people >who >> supposedly walked up to a total stranger and rudely harrassed her and the >> presumed ignorance about bfing an adopted child.
That was from my second post.
>But I still do not believe the >> previous poster. I do not believe that this happens often and repeatedly >to >> any single ffing mother primarily because of the sheer numbers she >mentions.
That was from my third post. And I immediately followed that with the comment:
>I believe one, or perhaps two women said something out of >> line or maybe even only had expressions on their faces which the poster >> interpreted as negative and she has exaggerated for the sake of making a >point.
Yet still, you reply:
>Really--I wasn't extrapolating mass persecution, just offering my >experience as an example. You said you couldn't believe that it >happens--well it does.
No, I did not say I couldn't believe that it ever happens. I could not, and do not, believe it happens as often as this person said it did.
And no, I didn't mean the 'dear' to be condescending. I meant it to be sympathetic, as I am genuinely sorry that one person was rude and insensitive about your bfing on one occasion. However, I see nothing in your story to convince me that it happens often, in fact, you agree with me that it does not happen that often. Therefore, it appears to me that we are in violent agreement and perhaps I have nothing more to contribute to this discussion=) Blessings,
Kanga
Beauty tip of the month: For *beautiful hair*, let a child run his or her fingers through it once a day. - Audrey Hepburn
> > "Elfanie" <elfanieNOS...@soderblom.net> wrote in message > > news:39220457.141939757@co.news.verio.net... > > > On Wed, 10 May 2000 06:29:02 GMT, "Suzanne Dallapè" > > > <Kar...@smugglers.alliance.org> wrote: > > > And working? isn't it a choice to work? she could stay home if it's > > > a two parent home...or she could take welfare and stay home. (yes, > > > I'm being extreme here)
> > Excuse me but you just hit a button! It would be *really* *REALLY* nice > if > > I could have stayed home with my son, but being the person who can pull > down > > the [much] higher income in this family, *I* am the one working. Further, > > many of the women who work for me are in the same shoes: their hubbies > are > > unemployed, disabled, not as highly educated, or they require two incomes > to > > make ends meet [I mean, keep the roof over their heads, not go out > partying > > nightly]. So, how about the bunch of us just stay at home and collect > > AFDC, which by the way you only can collect for twenty four months ever in > > your life now, and use Medicaid to pay for junior's medical care and live > > off your tax dollars since you are so convinced that this is preferable to > > using ff.
> Now, I know that the canadian experience is different than the american > difference since we can have up to 6 months paid maternity/parental leave, > but, working does not necessarily equate formula feeding. I for one > continued to nurse my daughter almost 2 years after I went back to work!!! > Sure, by then she was no longer exclusively breast fed and she WAS getting > SOME formula, though, until she turned about 18 months, breastmilk STILL > composed most of her diet. And I didn't even pump any milk for her, because > I simply was no good at it and was not in a position to take regular breaks > in order to keep the pumping going.
> Some women chose a mixed feeding approach: formula while they are away from > baby and breastmilk when they are with baby. Others pump. Some have their > little ones in a day-care facility close enough to their workplace that they > can actually go and nurse the babies. Others have the baby brought to them. > There are even some lucky women who can bring their baby to work with > them!!! However, I believe, the majority pump breastmilk and the baby is > given breast milk in a bottle or a cup.
> Sure, that is certainly not the best way to nurse a baby, but a lot women do > it.
> Now, you and others may be in a position that you had to return to work VERY > early in the baby's life and your supply was not established, hence you > couldn't keep going. But, at least, give it a try. If it doesn't work, well, > it doesn't and you've done your best. But, IMHO, to not even attempt nursing > because you know you have to return to work is a cop out at the same level > as not attempting to nurse because you can't measure how much milk baby is > getting is a cop out: it's an excuse. And not a very good excuse.
You didn't read the full post which you are responding to. Or did you intend to cut off my comments about my own breastfeeding relationship?
> > She didn't just ask a simple question, she lectured me about the > > goodness of bf, didn't listen to my response that I knew about the > > benefits of bf.
> What you said in your post to me was that she talked to you about how SHE > had bf, and how much she had enjoyed it. Sounds to me more like one > mother talking to another about the pleasures of parenting, not a lecture > about the evils of formula and how only bad mothers give their babies > formula.
Well, I was trying to paraphrase, sorry if I was imprecise. And, she didn't say "bad mothers". To me, saying "don't you know how good breastfeeding is?" is implying that you are at the very least uneducated.
> > Yes, I was! Are you saying that I don't know my own feelings? Why do > > you feel qualified/entitiled to dismiss my feelings.
> I was not dismissing them.I was surprised by them.
Hey--I was surprised by them too! I had never expected to have trouble nursing, after all I'd done it before. The depth of my sadness was really surprising to me.
Fortunately it worked out for us. But, a certain amount of luck was involved, that my milk didn't dry up before my daughter was strong enough to nurse efficiently, that she never became nipple confused, that I was physically able to do breast/bottle/pump round the clock for as long as was needed.
[snip]
> So why on earth didn't you tell her that you DO know the virtues of > breastmilk and that, in fact, your daughter gets breastmilk at most of her > feedings?
IIRC, I did try. But, as I said I was feeling particularly sensitive and we were in the school office (a large place with secretaries, aides, parents dropping off their kids, etc.)
> It is very painful to want to nurse and to be unable to do so, whether > > it's because of a lack of milk production (that 2% that keeps floating > > around) or because your baby is unable to nurse. If your baby is unable > > to nurse, it's probably because of additional problems such as prematurity > > which are themselves painful.
> Yes, I can see how it would indeed be painful. But other people should > not have to walk on eggs and fear saying anything about the benefits of bf > lest the person they are talking to is dealing with guilt feelings about > her inability to breastfeed. (Or breastfeed without any supplements.)
I agree, in general. I still think it's insensitive for a relative stranger to go up to a new mother, without knowing anything about her situation, and say "don't you know about the benefits of breastfeeding?".
In article <20000515004732.05639.00003...@ng-cj1.aol.com>,
kangama...@aol.comWA.rez. (Kanga C.) wrote: > And no, I didn't mean the 'dear' to be condescending. I meant it to be > sympathetic, as I am genuinely sorry that one person was rude and insensitive > about your bfing on one occasion.
Thank you for clarifying!
> However, I see nothing in your story to convince me that it happens often, in > fact, you agree with me that it does not happen that often. Therefore, it > appears to me that we are in violent agreement and perhaps I have nothing more > to contribute to this discussion=)
I guess I just want to encourage everyone to be sensitive to the fact that some woman really, *really* want to breastfeed and can't. Even one comment can hurt. The women who have chosen from the get-go to use formula probably don't care as much about the comments since they have presumably heard about the benefits of bf and rejected them. But, for people like me, people who know how wonderful nursing is, the loss (or in my case the potential loss) of the relationship is very difficult.
I'm feeling pretty emotional about this right now because one year ago I was fairly certain that my daughter would be fully bottle fed in a few weeks. And even though I had numerous people (LCs, pediatrician, developmental specialist) telling me that it was OK for me to use formula, that formula was designed specifically for situations like ours, I still felt a whole plethora of emotions ranging from guilt (why can't I provide for my child!) to sadness. I am so grateful that things worked out and that my daughter is still nursing now, but I think I have much more insight into the complexity of the emotions.
chelp <ch...@my-dejanews.com> wrote: > In article <8fnm49$bi...@flotsam.uits.indiana.edu>, Naomi Lynne Pardue > <npar...@steel.ucs.indiana.edu> wrote: >> Yes, I can see how it would indeed be painful. But other people should >> not have to walk on eggs and fear saying anything about the benefits of bf >> lest the person they are talking to is dealing with guilt feelings about >> her inability to breastfeed. (Or breastfeed without any supplements.) > I agree, in general. I still think it's insensitive for a relative > stranger to go up to a new mother, without knowing anything about her > situation, and say "don't you know about the benefits of breastfeeding?".
Yes, I agree that it is insenstive. But I would put it in the same catagory as the old ladies in the post office scolding you because your baby isn't wearing booties, or sales clerks asking you, while pregnant, when you are due. It's a bit rude and nosy. It isn't an attack on parenting skills.
Please don't use the term Nazi freely especiallty in this conversation. A lot of people died b/c of them, so please respect the dead and their familys. jenn
> > I don't, and that has no relevance to the stance I mentioned. I said I > > don't like it when women CHOOSE to bottle feed when they are ABLE to > > breastfeed. I am talking about people in general, not individuals. I > don't > > go up to unknown women and tell them off for bottle feeding, but if > someone > > CHOOSES to do it, I have a problem with that, whether or not I know the > > woman. I have a problem with the masses of women who CHOOSE to formula > > feed, not those who do it becasue they have no other choice. I thought I > > already said that!
> > >I'd say they were way out of bounds. How about you?
> > It doesn't matter to what I am saying. If a baby was adopted, I certainly > > would have no problem with formula (as I KEEP SAYING). Why is it, when I > > say something as simple as I DON'T LIKE IT WHEN WOMEN *CHOOSE* TO USE > > FORMULA IF THEY *DON'T* HAVE TO, people still think I am bad-mouthing > > mothers who HAVE to bottle feed? As I said before, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN > MY > > MOUTH. > > --S. > > JDall...@att.net
> I'm sorry I didn't intend to put words in your mouth. I don't like it when > women that could BF choose to FF either, I am simply sensitive to the fact > that BF mothers have a tendancy to be anti-ff in response to harrassment . > I was trying to point out that we need to be examples, not detectives. If I > had a friend who chose to FF instead of BF I certainly would give her all of > the information at my disposal, I wouldn't hound her until she gave in. > I've seen quite a few posts on this NG that made some people sound like > Nipple Nazis. It's very irritating.
> -- > Beckie
> "I thought we all were the children of God?" > Esmerelda- Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame
Discussion subject changed to "Use of the word "Nazi" WAS: Re: Breast is best, was Re: Internet survey - should mothers breastfeed in public?" by Suzanne Dallapè
Please don't use the term Nazi freely especiallty in this conversation.
What I don't understand about the term "Breastfeeding Nazi" is that Nazis were a totally different kind of entity. Nazis were concerned with the obliteration of anyone they considered substandard--they chose to kill "undesirable" people. They were most certainly NOT concerned with good health and life for all! Breastfeeding advocates, on the other hand, wish that every healthy baby should get the best food possible for optimal health. They try to ensure that all babies--not just "good" ones--have the best chance for survival. Therefore, to call a breastfeeding advocate a "Nazi" is not very accurate. Now, there are a few women (probably at least as many as there are militant breastfeeders) who tirelessly promote formula for all babies. You can sometimes find these women in bottlefeeding boards, saying things like, "I almost have my neighbor convinced to formula feed!" and replies like, "Good for you! We'll show them!" I PERSONALLY know someone who took great pride in the fact that everyone in her prenatal class who declared they would breastfeed ended up bottle feeding. I don't like the use of the term "Nazi," but in this case, I think it would be more fitting than to apply it to a breastfeeding advocate. After all, to promote the use of formula (in healthy babies) is to promote a lesser chance of good health and survival. Breastfeeding advocates want to see all babies in optimal health; formula advocates, simply by promoting their product, do not. --S. JDall...@att.net
IMO the comparison to Nazi's comes from intolerance toward anyone who's beliefs or actions may be different then yours, as well as very vocally and loudly declaring those people lesser than you in some manner.
"Suzanne Dallapè" <Kar...@smugglers.alliance.org> wrote in message
> jennifer wrote in message > Please don't use the term Nazi freely especiallty in this conversation.
> What I don't understand about the term "Breastfeeding Nazi" is that Nazis > were a totally different kind of entity. Nazis were concerned with the > obliteration of anyone they considered substandard--they chose to kill > "undesirable" people. They were most certainly NOT concerned with good > health and life for all! Breastfeeding advocates, on the other hand, wish > that every healthy baby should get the best food possible for optimal > health. They try to ensure that all babies--not just "good" ones--have the > best chance for survival. Therefore, to call a breastfeeding advocate a > "Nazi" is not very accurate. > Now, there are a few women (probably at least as many as there are > militant breastfeeders) who tirelessly promote formula for all babies. You > can sometimes find these women in bottlefeeding boards, saying things like, > "I almost have my neighbor convinced to formula feed!" and replies like, > "Good for you! We'll show them!" I PERSONALLY know someone who took great > pride in the fact that everyone in her prenatal class who declared they > would breastfeed ended up bottle feeding. I don't like the use of the term > "Nazi," but in this case, I think it would be more fitting than to apply it > to a breastfeeding advocate. After all, to promote the use of formula (in > healthy babies) is to promote a lesser chance of good health and survival. > Breastfeeding advocates want to see all babies in optimal health; formula > advocates, simply by promoting their product, do not. > --S. > JDall...@att.net
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