On Mon, 15 May 2000 20:47:45 GMT, "Lesa" <lschm...@nycap.rr.com> wrote:
>IMO the comparison to Nazi's comes from intolerance toward anyone who's >beliefs or actions may be different then yours, as well as very vocally and >loudly declaring those people lesser than you in some manner.
> On Mon, 15 May 2000 20:47:45 GMT, "Lesa" <lschm...@nycap.rr.com> > wrote:
> >IMO the comparison to Nazi's comes from intolerance toward anyone who's > >beliefs or actions may be different then yours, as well as very vocally and > >loudly declaring those people lesser than you in some manner.
> Ug. I declare Godwin's Law fulfilled.
I second!!! Motion passed?
-- Colette l n r p l x u s a t r i p c o d o t c o m ^^^^^^reduce for email^^^^^^
> On Mon, 15 May 2000 20:47:45 GMT, "Lesa" <lschm...@nycap.rr.com> > wrote:
> >IMO the comparison to Nazi's comes from intolerance toward anyone who's > >beliefs or actions may be different then yours, as well as very vocally and > >loudly declaring those people lesser than you in some manner.
Lesa wrote: > IMO the comparison to Nazi's comes from intolerance toward anyone who's > beliefs or actions may be different then yours, as well as very vocally and > loudly declaring those people lesser than you in some manner.
The use of the term Nazi in this or most other contexts is unbelievably offensive and disrespectful to the many innocent Jews who suffered such a horrible fate at the hand of the Nazis. I am appalled at the insensitivity of those who would cheapen this debate to that level. I wish we could have some honest discussions of what works and what doesn't to promote breastfeeding. We need to stop the blame fest and honestly review what is most effective. The goal is noble, the actors have been less than noble. We all can do a better job. Let's first look at ourselves and our attitudes. There is room for friendly agreement and disagreement.
jennifer <kerrie.j...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message
news:39202585.E9659266@ns.sympatico.ca... Please don't use the term Nazi freely especiallty in this conversation. A lot of people died b/c of them, so please respect the dead and their familys. jenn
You're right, however I only used the term in the same way that many BF supporting Labor and delivery nurses do. It is meant to refer to the way that some BF support personel tell new mothers that their babies will die if they don't BF. There is some chance that this might happen but the way these people tell mothers is frightening in the extreme. to the point that the mother then can not relax so that let down will happen and she then resorts to FF because "she has no milk". I'm only saying that a gentler method is better. It's all about the way we say it ladies.
-- Beckie
"I thought we all were the children of God?" Esmerelda- Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame
> > I don't, and that has no relevance to the stance I mentioned. I said I > > don't like it when women CHOOSE to bottle feed when they are ABLE to > > breastfeed. I am talking about people in general, not individuals. I > don't > > go up to unknown women and tell them off for bottle feeding, but if > someone > > CHOOSES to do it, I have a problem with that, whether or not I know the > > woman. I have a problem with the masses of women who CHOOSE to formula > > feed, not those who do it becasue they have no other choice. I thought I > > already said that!
> > >I'd say they were way out of bounds. How about you?
> > It doesn't matter to what I am saying. If a baby was adopted, I certainly > > would have no problem with formula (as I KEEP SAYING). Why is it, when I > > say something as simple as I DON'T LIKE IT WHEN WOMEN *CHOOSE* TO USE > > FORMULA IF THEY *DON'T* HAVE TO, people still think I am bad-mouthing > > mothers who HAVE to bottle feed? As I said before, STOP PUTTING WORDS IN > MY > > MOUTH. > > --S. > > JDall...@att.net
> I'm sorry I didn't intend to put words in your mouth. I don't like it when > women that could BF choose to FF either, I am simply sensitive to the fact > that BF mothers have a tendancy to be anti-ff in response to harrassment . > I was trying to point out that we need to be examples, not detectives. If I > had a friend who chose to FF instead of BF I certainly would give her all of > the information at my disposal, I wouldn't hound her until she gave in. > I've seen quite a few posts on this NG that made some people sound like > Nipple Nazis. It's very irritating.
> -- > Beckie
> "I thought we all were the children of God?" > Esmerelda- Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame
Discussion subject changed to "Use of the word "Nazi" WAS: Re: Breast is best, was Re: Internet survey - should mothers breastfeed in public?" by Harmom2
> IMO the comparison to Nazi's comes from intolerance toward anyone who's > beliefs or actions may be different then yours, as well as very vocally and > loudly declaring those people lesser than you in some manner.
put much better then I managed! Bravo
-- Beckie
"I thought we all were the children of God?" Esmerelda- Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame
> > What I don't understand about the term "Breastfeeding Nazi" is that Nazis > > were a totally different kind of entity. Nazis were concerned with the > > obliteration of anyone they considered substandard--they chose to kill > > "undesirable" people. They were most certainly NOT concerned with good > > health and life for all! Breastfeeding advocates, on the other hand, wish > > that every healthy baby should get the best food possible for optimal > > health. They try to ensure that all babies--not just "good" ones--have > the > > best chance for survival. Therefore, to call a breastfeeding advocate a > > "Nazi" is not very accurate. > > Now, there are a few women (probably at least as many as there are > > militant breastfeeders) who tirelessly promote formula for all babies. > You > > can sometimes find these women in bottlefeeding boards, saying things > like, > > "I almost have my neighbor convinced to formula feed!" and replies like, > > "Good for you! We'll show them!" I PERSONALLY know someone who took > great > > pride in the fact that everyone in her prenatal class who declared they > > would breastfeed ended up bottle feeding. I don't like the use of the > term > > "Nazi," but in this case, I think it would be more fitting than to apply > it > > to a breastfeeding advocate. After all, to promote the use of formula (in > > healthy babies) is to promote a lesser chance of good health and survival. > > Breastfeeding advocates want to see all babies in optimal health; formula > > advocates, simply by promoting their product, do not. > > --S. > > JDall...@att.net
>The use of the term Nazi in this or most other contexts is unbelievably >offensive and disrespectful to the many innocent Jews who suffered such a >horrible fate at the hand of the Nazis. I am appalled at the insensitivity of >those who would cheapen this debate to that level.
Offense, disrespect and insensitivity are cultural statements. World War 2 ended nearly 55 years ago and the term "Nazi" has morphed from describing the National Socialist German Workers party to describing fascism in general. When I hear the words "breastfeeding Nazi", I interpret that to mean one who believes in a regimented program (100% breastfeeding), suppression of opposition, and censorship. To me, this shows disrespect and insensitivity.
I'm also offended by exposed breasts in public, nursing or not, and I have no idea why exposing oneself is in any way related to feeding a child. It certainly isn't necessary.
I suspect there are simply too many about here who revel in the "in-your-face" approach to breastfeeding. It's a pity too, because there really isn't any doubt breastfeeding is superior for the first few months.
Galen
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Discussion subject changed to "Use of the word "Nazi" WAS: Re: Breast is best, was Re: Internet survey - should mothers breastfeed in public?" by Charlotte Millington
Suzanne Dallapč (Kar...@smugglers.alliance.org) wrote: : jennifer wrote in message
: Please don't use the term Nazi freely especiallty in this conversation.
: What I don't understand about the term "Breastfeeding Nazi" is that Nazis : were a totally different kind of entity. Nazis were concerned with the : obliteration of anyone they considered substandard--they chose to kill : "undesirable" people. They were most certainly NOT concerned with good : health and life for all! Breastfeeding advocates, on the other hand, wish : that every healthy baby should get the best food possible for optimal : health. They try to ensure that all babies--not just "good" ones--have the : best chance for survival. Therefore, to call a breastfeeding advocate a : "Nazi" is not very accurate. : Now, there are a few women (probably at least as many as there are : militant breastfeeders) who tirelessly promote formula for all babies. You : can sometimes find these women in bottlefeeding boards, saying things like, : "I almost have my neighbor convinced to formula feed!" and replies like, : "Good for you! We'll show them!" I PERSONALLY know someone who took great : pride in the fact that everyone in her prenatal class who declared they : would breastfeed ended up bottle feeding. I don't like the use of the term : "Nazi," but in this case, I think it would be more fitting than to apply it : to a breastfeeding advocate. After all, to promote the use of formula (in : healthy babies) is to promote a lesser chance of good health and survival. : Breastfeeding advocates want to see all babies in optimal health; formula : advocates, simply by promoting their product, do not. : --S. : JDall...@att.net
-- "The truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it; ignorance may deride it; malice may distort it; but there it is." -Winston Churchill Visit http://www.birth.bc.ca!
: IMO the comparison to Nazi's comes from intolerance toward anyone who's : beliefs or actions may be different then yours, as well as very vocally and : loudly declaring those people lesser than you in some manner.
This either shows a complete lack of understanding about Nazis or a complete lack of respect.
Nazis did not simply have an "intolerance toward anyone who's beliefs or actions may be different then yours, as well as very vocally and loudly declaring those people lesser than you in some manner." Nazis chose a group of people who had only a Jewish ancestory in common, then systematically killed them, with an intent to kill all of them. For some Jews and a few caught dissenters, murder wasn't enough. First they had to be tortured over a period of months or even years before they would be "allowed" to die.
Of the Jews who were killed, all they had in common was ancestory. Some were polical, some were breastfeeding mothers, some were children, some were dads. But they often did not express loud opinions. They just wanted to live.
Let me set the record staright on breastfeeding "Nazis".
We do not have a plan to systematically murder all formula feeders.
We do not have a plan to torture formula feeders.
We do not plan to murder or torture adults who were formula fed. Nor are we after their parents or grandparents. I doubt you'll find a lot of breastfeeding advocates who care about formula mischlings.
What we advocates of breastfeeding do is advocate breastfeeding. That means educating and informing people who don't always know the facts. Sometimes it means staring with a complete lack of comprehension when someone who does know the facts still choses to formula feed.
Whether it is used by other "professionals" or not, it is still not only inappropriate, it is grossly disrespectful to the millions of people who died terrifying deaths at the hands of the Nazis.
: > Please don't use the term Nazi freely especiallty in this conversation. : > : > What I don't understand about the term "Breastfeeding Nazi" is that Nazis : > were a totally different kind of entity. Nazis were concerned with the : > obliteration of anyone they considered substandard--they chose to kill : > "undesirable" people. They were most certainly NOT concerned with good : > health and life for all! Breastfeeding advocates, on the other hand, wish : > that every healthy baby should get the best food possible for optimal : > health. They try to ensure that all babies--not just "good" ones--have : the : > best chance for survival. Therefore, to call a breastfeeding advocate a : > "Nazi" is not very accurate. : > Now, there are a few women (probably at least as many as there are : > militant breastfeeders) who tirelessly promote formula for all babies. : You : > can sometimes find these women in bottlefeeding boards, saying things : like, : > "I almost have my neighbor convinced to formula feed!" and replies like, : > "Good for you! We'll show them!" I PERSONALLY know someone who took : great : > pride in the fact that everyone in her prenatal class who declared they : > would breastfeed ended up bottle feeding. I don't like the use of the : term : > "Nazi," but in this case, I think it would be more fitting than to apply : it : > to a breastfeeding advocate. After all, to promote the use of formula (in : > healthy babies) is to promote a lesser chance of good health and survival. : > Breastfeeding advocates want to see all babies in optimal health; formula : > advocates, simply by promoting their product, do not. : > --S. : > JDall...@att.net : > : > : >
-- "The truth is incontrovertible. Panic may resent it; ignorance may deride it; malice may distort it; but there it is." -Winston Churchill Visit http://www.birth.bc.ca!
> §Colette§ (lnrpl...@ripco.com) wrote: > : Charlotte Millington wrote: > : > > : > jennifer (kerrie.j...@ns.sympatico.ca) wrote: > : > : To work. Not all of us have the option of having a husband to pay for us to stay at home. > : > > : > I was a single mother for Brigitte's first three years. Not only did I > : > not have a husband who was willing to pay for my leisurely life of > : > bon-bons and sewing clubs, I couldn't even track down my ex for child > : > support.
> : I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you did not mean > : that bon-bon comment like it came off ...
Nah, that's what I do! Well, it is starting to feel like it, now summer weather seems to be here, and I spent all afternoon at the outdoor pool .... I love summer! One of the major perks of being a SAHM! (With a hard-working husband to pay for my admission ... ;D )
> Not at all. I can't say I know any married woman who gets to sit around > eating bon-bons. But, you wanna talk stereotypes, it does seem that these > women spend a lot of time cleaning up after their husbands.
Ah, now that is where the stereotype breaks down in my case - Chris gets to spend a lot of time cleaning up after me :) His philosophy is that his job is (obviously) his job, my job is our children (when he's not around), and we get to share the house. Everyone neglects the garden, Charlotte, any offers of help?
Discussion subject changed to "Use of the word "Nazi" WAS: Re: Breast is best, was Re: Internet survey - should mothers breastfeed in public?" by Michelle Haines
In misc.kids.breastfeeding Michelle Haines <mhai...@oshconsulting.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 15 May 2000 23:57:26 GMT, elfanieNOS...@soderblom.net > (Elfanie) wrote: >>You are comparing the slaughter of millions of Jews....to people who >>support breastfeeding?? > People. Millions and millions of -people-, many of whom were not > Jewish. > Sorry, Elf, it's a peeve. :)
Millions of Jews. AND millions of homosexuals, gypsies, disabled people, and other groups of undesirables.
In misc.kids.breastfeeding Harmom2 <harm...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> You're right, however I only used the term in the same way that many BF > supporting Labor and delivery nurses do. It is meant to refer to the way > that some BF support personel tell new mothers that their babies will die if > they don't BF.
Now, WHO exactly is telling mothers that their babies will die if they don't bf. One only has to look around and see live formula fed babies to know that formula feeding does not cause certain death. So a person who says that wouldn't be a "nazi." She would be an idiot.
Harmom2 wrote: > jennifer <kerrie.j...@ns.sympatico.ca> wrote in message > news:39202585.E9659266@ns.sympatico.ca... > Please don't use the term Nazi freely especiallty in this conversation. A > lot of > people died b/c of them, so please respect the dead and their familys. > jenn
> You're right, however I only used the term in the same way that many BF > supporting Labor and delivery nurses do. It is meant to refer to the way > that some BF support personel tell new mothers that their babies will die if > they don't BF. There is some chance that this might happen but the way these > people tell mothers is frightening in the extreme. to the point that the > mother then can not relax so that let down will happen and she then resorts > to FF because "she has no milk". I'm only saying that a gentler method is > better. It's all about the way we say it ladies.
> -- > Beckie
Who cares why you used the term, you did, and that's all that matters right now. I asked you nicely not to, and you come back with that. Well I won't accept it. It's not a great "reason" and I demand an apology. One for my stepmother's father who as a young child had his tongue cut out while in a camp. For my friend from poland who told me stories of her father and grandfather who hid people risking there lives to save others. For my german friend who has not a family, except her grandfather who survived a death camp and lived to tell. For the lady who lives down the road, she teaches piano now, but during the war she jumped out of a plane trying to save others lives. For my great uncle, and his many comrades who died or went missing. I demand an apology. For them. and millions more. jenn
> > > I don't, and that has no relevance to the stance I mentioned. I said I > > > don't like it when women CHOOSE to bottle feed when they are ABLE to > > > breastfeed. I am talking about people in general, not individuals. I > > don't > > > go up to unknown women and tell them off for bottle feeding, but if > > someone > > > CHOOSES to do it, I have a problem with that, whether or not I know the > > > woman. I have a problem with the masses of women who CHOOSE to formula > > > feed, not those who do it becasue they have no other choice. I thought > I > > > already said that!
> > > >I'd say they were way out of bounds. How about you?
> > > It doesn't matter to what I am saying. If a baby was adopted, I > certainly > > > would have no problem with formula (as I KEEP SAYING). Why is it, when > I > > > say something as simple as I DON'T LIKE IT WHEN WOMEN *CHOOSE* TO USE > > > FORMULA IF THEY *DON'T* HAVE TO, people still think I am bad-mouthing > > > mothers who HAVE to bottle feed? As I said before, STOP PUTTING WORDS > IN > > MY > > > MOUTH. > > > --S. > > > JDall...@att.net
> > I'm sorry I didn't intend to put words in your mouth. I don't like it > when > > women that could BF choose to FF either, I am simply sensitive to the fact > > that BF mothers have a tendancy to be anti-ff in response to harrassment > . > > I was trying to point out that we need to be examples, not detectives. If > I > > had a friend who chose to FF instead of BF I certainly would give her all > of > > the information at my disposal, I wouldn't hound her until she gave in. > > I've seen quite a few posts on this NG that made some people sound like > > Nipple Nazis. It's very irritating.
> > -- > > Beckie
> > "I thought we all were the children of God?" > > Esmerelda- Disney's Hunchback of Notre Dame
In article <wahT4.5014$WS3.41...@typhoon.we.rr.com>, "Harmom2" <harm...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> how do you know why a mother isn't BF?
In *most* cases the way I have known WHY a mother isn't breastfeeding is because she told me!
My SIL switched to formula because she wanted her baby to sleep through the night. AS did my next door neighbour and many friends and acquaintences. If someone says "I chose to formul afeed" it's pretty damn plain that there's no hidden agenda.
Discussion subject changed to "Use of the word "Nazi" WAS: Re: Breast is best, was Re: Internet survey - should mothers breastfeed in public?" by cathi...@my-deja.com
In article <02407a10.1ff68...@usw-ex0107-055.remarq.com>, atarigalen <kNOkS...@uia.net.invalid> wrote:
> I suspect there are simply too many about here who revel in > the "in-your-face" approach to breastfeeding. It's a pity too, > because there really isn't any doubt breastfeeding is superior > for the first few months.
Glad you are so sure of that. Presonally I believe there is certainly is doubt that breastfeeding is "superior". I sure don't think of it as "superior" just plain old NORMAL.
It's NOT some magical substance it's only MILK! It's not superior it's NORMAL - Formula is *inferior* and we need to get our heads around the fact that our language is totally screwed up in relation to breastfeeding. Breastmilk is normal and it the intended and appropriate food for a child for the first YEAR and beyond (I assume by "few" you meant "at least 12")
By elevating breastmilk to some religious kind of status (or superior) we are making room to consider formula a good and reasonable alternative. It should be seen as an option of last resort and only "good" in terms of "better than nothing" For many babies formula is the only alternative to nothing and obviously it is necessary but that doesn't make it a good first option.
The case you cited is a perfect example of what I was talking about. To clarify, I was not saying that "psychological trauma" is "garbage" in and of itself, just that it is a lame excuse to be a crappy parent. If those traumas are going to interfere with your ability to raise a child, it is best not to start a family.
chenier danielle wrote in message <8fnpjv$1tc...@news2.ottawa.cyberus.ca>... >Oh, please, Jerry, don't even go there. Psychological trauma and mental >health are very REAL issues, issues that can lead to all kinds of problems.
>On a matter totally unrelated to breastfeeding, my sister was quite marked >by illness and death when she was very young (less than 3 years old). Two >people she loved dearly and who loved her just as much passed away within 9 >months of each other and that was at the time our youngest brother was born, >usurping her place as the youngest of the family. She is now in her >mid-thirties and is an hypocondriach (sp?). Not only does bad health mean >severe illness to her, it means death. And she is sooo afraid that her being >sick will lead to her death, that she actually makes herself sick. And I >mean VERY sick, bed-ridden sick. Now if something as simple and natural as >the passing away of older, though cherished, relatives can lead to something >this intense, imagine what other more serious traumas can lead to!!!
>Yes, it's possible to overcome those issues, but it might, and probably is, >very difficult to do.
> Please don't use the term Nazi freely especiallty in this conversation. A lot of > people died b/c of them, so please respect the dead and their familys. > jenn
-------------- Stop trying to tell people how to speak, you fucking Nazi!! My father got the bridge of his nose blown out by a Nazi 88mm in the Ardennes with the 101st Airborne and had plastic surgery!! And my son's maternal relatives all survived the death camps and have tatoos, so fuck off!! Steve
Discussion subject changed to "Use of the word "Nazi" WAS: Re: Breast is best, was Re: Internet survey - should mothers breastfeed in public?" by Steve
> > IMO the comparison to Nazi's comes from intolerance toward anyone who's > > beliefs or actions may be different then yours, as well as very vocally and > > loudly declaring those people lesser than you in some manner.
> The use of the term Nazi in this or most other contexts is unbelievably > offensive and disrespectful to the many innocent Jews who suffered such a > horrible fate at the hand of the Nazis. I am appalled at the insensitivity of > those who would cheapen this debate to that level.
------------------- BULLSHIT, you fucking Posting Nazi!! My father was hurt in the Ardennes fighting the Nazi's so I could say this!! And my son's jewish relatives all were camp survivors!! stop trying to tell people how they can speak!! Steve
> I'm also offended by exposed breasts in public, nursing or not, > and I have no idea why exposing oneself is in any way related to > feeding a child. It certainly isn't necessary.
----------------- You fucking nutless little Nazi!! They don't need to HIDE from the squirrely likes of your sad cock, you fascist fuck!
> I suspect there are simply too many about here who revel in > the "in-your-face" approach to breastfeeding. It's a pity too, > because there really isn't any doubt breastfeeding is superior > for the first few months.
> Galen
----------------- Not a pity, it STILL is superior, even if you can't handle nipples! Steve
> > IMO the comparison to Nazi's comes from intolerance toward anyone who's > > beliefs or actions may be different then yours, as well as very vocally and > > loudly declaring those people lesser than you in some manner.
> The use of the term Nazi in this or most other contexts is unbelievably > offensive and disrespectful to the many innocent Jews who suffered such a > horrible fate at the hand of the Nazis. I am appalled at the insensitivity of > those who would cheapen this debate to that level. I wish we could have some > honest discussions of what works and what doesn't to promote breastfeeding. We > need to stop the blame fest and honestly review what is most effective. The goal > is noble, the actors have been less than noble. We all can do a better job. > Let's first look at ourselves and our attitudes. There is room for friendly > agreement and disagreement.
I agree fully--was just jusdt commenting on my thoughts above. Unfortunately, the term Nazi, has come to be used for anyone who has strong opinons concerning their views and will express disdain or anger for those who do not adhere to the same views.
This is most definitely an extreme distortion of what a Nazi is.
SOME women can work and breastfeed without a pump. MOST employers will not allow you to bring your baby to work with you. If you have to work 4-8 hours, you can try to hand express, but for some women working full time a pump really is necessary. -D
Hush steve hush, we all know what a big man you are b/c you can curse. Now I thought you weren't speaking to me anymore. Wasn't i supposed to bounce off your filters. Well well steve I'm rubber your glue, everything I saw will bounce off me and stick to you.
> > Please don't use the term Nazi freely especiallty in this conversation. A lot of > > people died b/c of them, so please respect the dead and their familys. > > jenn > -------------- > Stop trying to tell people how to speak, you fucking Nazi!! My father > got the bridge of his nose blown out by a Nazi 88mm in the Ardennes with > the 101st Airborne and had plastic surgery!! And my son's maternal > relatives all survived the death camps and have tatoos, so fuck off!! > Steve
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