The 450cc issue has certainly stirred a few people up and at times
myself but going forward the 450cc will not go over in size the Cams
they are using are for reliabilty not for oversizing their engines.
The Guys running the 450cc engines have more to worry about than the
250cc guys as the 2 strokes can now run to 271cc.
What some of the QLD guys need to take into account, that the 2 450cc
Guys that raced in QLD last season are 2 of the best in the country
they know how to set up their cars and have crew members who know what
they are doing, i believe that if you want to go fast you need a basic
3 things 1. Car Set Up 2. Good Engine 3. Good Driver, but when you
have cars with 10 year old shocks and torsion bars that should have
been thrown away years ago and bearings in Bird Cages that also have
not been looked at in years and the list goes on, this is what i find
difficult to understand peoples thinking, they would rather hold back
the division than improve what they have to be more competitive,
really some of the guys are complaining only because they will have to
put a effort in were before they did not and ran ok, simply i think
this scares them!
The condition of cars has nothing to do with the intorduction of
450cc. Without these
" OLDER " cars, there would not be a club. The condition of cars comes
down to
personal issues and a budget. How is intoducing 450cc going to help
this? If the club
dosn't want these older cars then maybe they should say something .
250cc Microsprints is a entry level class into speedway. Thats why I
am a member.
The issue I have is that the 450cc engine was bullied into the 250cc
division. Look at the what
happen when we first voted on them. The majority ruled we would NOT
run 450cc in Qld. As this
was not the answer certain people wanted, the legitamate vote for
NOTrunning 450cc was overturned.
(Q) Can somone tell me why 450cc cars did not start there own class?
450cc cars are not going to do anything for the class other than
increase costs and line the pockects
of interested parties. Thye majority of people are telling me that
these engines are like grenades. How is intoducing a engine where thre
maintenace costs are higher and reliabilty is lower going to improve
the
class?
As for the promotion of the division in a series and media write ups.
The same thing could have been done
as a 250cc class only. I am all for promoting the division but the
450cc issue is not the silver bullet.
Standing up for what you beleive in is not complaining. Being bullied,
intimidated and railroaded is more
a problem.
goody2...@bigpond.com wrote:
> The 450cc issue has certainly stirred a few people up and at times
> myself but going forward the 450cc will not go over in size the Cams
> they are using are for reliabilty not for oversizing their engines.
> The Guys running the 450cc engines have more to worry about than the
> 250cc guys as the 2 strokes can now run to 271cc.
> What some of the QLD guys need to take into account, that the 2 450cc
> Guys that raced in QLD last season are 2 of the best in the country
> they know how to set up their cars and have crew members who know what
> they are doing, i believe that if you want to go fast you need a basic
> 3 things 1. Car Set Up 2. Good Engine 3. Good Driver, but when you
> have cars with 10 year old shocks and torsion bars that should have
> been thrown away years ago and bearings in Bird Cages that also have
> not been looked at in years and the list goes on, this is what i find
> difficult to understand peoples thinking, they would rather hold back
> the division than improve what they have to be more competitive,
> really some of the guys are complaining only because they will have to
> put a effort in were before they did not and ran ok, simply i think
> this scares them!
the cams are not to oversize a engine a cam is to increase lift in
valves which increases performance, people in positions in this club
have also said there engines were worked and not standard as they were
supposed to be,as for old cars they are what keep your club going and
how many of you have started in these and moved up as you could afford
or drove these for others and as for maintanance i no there are alot
of people that are slack at this and its not the reason people
complain about,i for one believe the way things were done is wrong and
the 450 should be a formular 500 or are the people running these
things to worried about the expense or being beaten by people with
more money or better equipment than them,people being scared of of
putting in more work is a joke that is not there concerns with this as
you no ,if they were so hot why isnt the states running these things
and more of them yes they do have a lot running in quads not many that
i no off in
micros ????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> The 450cc issue has certainly stirred a few people up and at times
> myself but going forward the 450cc will not go over in size the Cams
> they are using are for reliabilty not for oversizing their engines.
> The Guys running the 450cc engines have more to worry about than the
> 250cc guys as the 2 strokes can now run to 271cc.
> What some of the QLD guys need to take into account, that the 2 450cc
> Guys that raced in QLD last season are 2 of the best in the country
> they know how to set up their cars and have crew members who know what
> they are doing, i believe that if you want to go fast you need a basic
> 3 things 1. Car Set Up 2. Good Engine 3. Good Driver, but when you
> have cars with 10 year old shocks and torsion bars that should have
> been thrown away years ago and bearings in Bird Cages that also have
> not been looked at in years and the list goes on, this is what i find
> difficult to understand peoples thinking, they would rather hold back
> the division than improve what they have to be more competitive,
> really some of the guys are complaining only because they will have to
> put a effort in were before they did not and ran ok, simply i think
> this scares them!
Just a few things I might add to the fire lol, is the one thing in
these discussions we need to leave out all personal issues and deal
with the matter In question, Just a little about me, Ive been in the
motor industry most of my life, and have also had a lot of dealings
with speedway over the years, the issues I raise here are as below
1. Why is the 450cc been allowed into a 250cc class?? (needs some
serious explanation here)
2. Weather or not if you car is old or new, if it passes inspections
and Scrutineering, are they not deemed safe to race?? There wasnt a
lot last year that was knocked back if any??, but the amount of cars I
seen falling apart was a disgrace to the club and the sport
3. 450cc class, has any one said or stated what year this engine has
to be, for instance KTM 450 Factory stock have fuel injection, so do
some other brands Gas Gas, Husky etc, so there needs to be a area here
that needs to be addressed for a start, you say they have to be stock,
well these are, so the engines year or performance needs to be
addressed massively here, a worked 450 is going to have a lot of
punch, and its not going to be easy to work out weather or not its
factory stock unless you are going to take the owners word for it, or
if it keeps winning or there is something there thats out of the
ordinary whos going to do the inspection to make sure it isnt and
pay for this??
4. Still beats me why 450cc are in with 250??, going to look odd
telling people, when they ask what sort of engine is in your car mate
been a 250, yes mate its a 450??? What??
5. Big cams, etc what ever big values, most people who are in the
know, is that you get most of your horse power from a 4 stroke, in its
cam, bigger values and head work, bore size does have some affect but
not great deals (and lets not get to technical here we talking 4
stroke bike engines), Example: for instance a bottom end on a 410 V8
Sprint car costs so much $15,000, the heads and top end etc are your
dearest parts $25,000 why because this is where 75% of your horsepower
is, ok so what Im getting at is if there is ever and issue over whats
what etc, the bore can be stock, but whos to say the heads havent
been followed to the max, bigger values and cam etc etc, so you can
all see where Im coming from with this ok.
6. The thing is, and I see it all the time, its hard for a club to
start a new division etc and get it up and running as we all know well
some of us anyway in how much works involved in this, and most
promoters require a 12 plus field.
7. The thing is with the 450 class, they should be on there own, and
they should have there own rules as well, and not to intervene with
the 250 class, I spend a lot of time and money on my car, to make sure
its up to scratch at all times, and so do most other club members,
point being is that 250cc Microsprints should be left alone, you have
even said it yourself that the US Guys havent even gone there, I
wonder why to much to workout and to much uncommon issues etc, and to
many things that cant be checked or trusted.
8. Most of us know the 250 class in the US is one of the biggest
classes going, and racing anywhere up to 3 to 4 times a week, here we
are lucky to get this in 2 to 3 months, so I would like to see a lot
more going into promoting the club events, not dwelling on the 450cc
issue as to me this will end up destroying the club that has worked so
hard to survive over the years, things like getting bigger venues so
we can show case our cars, and getting people interested and getting
bigger better sponsors, this is only going to happen if we are racing
at bigger venues, this all has to do with the marketing of the club
and so on, this most likely doesnt have a lot to do with the 450
issues but to me it does, but it needs to be look at seriously if the
club wants to get bigger and have more cars, the 450 class will add
more cost, as with the 250 2 strokes, a lot of people can handle the
work load, as with the 450 there isnt a lot that can do the work,
hence forth will then be required to pay someone to do this, and then
of coarse steering people away from the sport itself because of cost
issues
Thats all hope this has some input and even maybe fire up the others
to have a say, all the best and what ever youre racing go hard and
fast and enjoy
On Jul 13, 10:28 am, grumpy <bobsteven...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> the cams are not to oversize a engine a cam is to increase lift in
> valves which increases performance, people in positions in this club
> have also said there engines were worked and not standard as they were
> supposed to be,as for old cars they are what keep your club going and
> how many of you have started in these and moved up as you could afford
> or drove these for others and as for maintanance i no there are alot
> of people that are slack at this and its not the reason people
> complain about,i for one believe the way things were done is wrong and
> the 450 should be a formular 500 or are the people running these
> things to worried about the expense or being beaten by people with
> more money or better equipment than them,people being scared of of
> putting in more work is a joke that is not there concerns with this as
> you no ,if they were so hot why isnt the states running these things
> and more of them yes they do have a lot running in quads not many that
> i no off in
> micros ????????????????????????????????????????????????????
> On Jul 13, 7:07 am, goody2...@bigpond.com wrote:
> > The 450cc issue has certainly stirred a few people up and at times
> > myself but going forward the 450cc will not go over in size the Cams
> > they are using are for reliabilty not for oversizing their engines.
> > The Guys running the 450cc engines have more to worry about than the
> > 250cc guys as the 2 strokes can now run to 271cc.
> > What some of the QLD guys need to take into account, that the 2 450cc
> > Guys that raced in QLD last season are 2 of the best in the country
> > they know how to set up their cars and have crew members who know what
> > they are doing, i believe that if you want to go fast you need a basic
> > 3 things 1. Car Set Up 2. Good Engine 3. Good Driver, but when you
> > have cars with 10 year old shocks and torsion bars that should have
> > been thrown away years ago and bearings in Bird Cages that also have
> > not been looked at in years and the list goes on, this is what i find
> > difficult to understand peoples thinking, they would rather hold back
> > the division than improve what they have to be more competitive,
> > really some of the guys are complaining only because they will have to
> > put a effort in were before they did not and ran ok, simply i think
> > this scares them!- Hide quoted text -
The 450cc four stroke's might not be the as bad as some think. There
are many who are not mechanically minded to be able to come to terms
with two strokes. Some people want to be different and go against the
"norm" and some who just follow what others do. 450cc four strokes are
here to stay as a replacement for 250cc two strokes. I think it's
correct to say you have been railroaded as both club's needed to take
better control over the "trial" period of 450cc. It seem's that both
club's were unsure of the configurations of the "trial" engines. These
"trial" engines should have been more transparent. Rumours were
allowed to permeate on their make up. Maybe a specified "crate" engine
should have been used similar to the karts. This way cost could be
controlled along with parity. It's hard to cop the 450 argument that
the 250's are allowed to be open to work and only restricted to cc's,
the 250's have be the foundation of both club's and have impart always
reflected the availability of motor's from the State's. The 450's will
open up the division to new competitor's who are better acquainted to
these engines, in saying this having an open policy on their
performance will also push some away as the cost will be prohibitive.
Additionally if you do any research on the 450's you will see a
mountain of examples of the reliability falling away as you increase
performance. If you accept the 450 argument that you need a reliable
alternative then why not use a controlled "crate" engine. Oh that's
right , the 450's what to win! Well if you choose a 450 four stroke
and already know your up against 260 cc methanol two strokes then
winning will always a difficult proposition. Seem's to me that the
450's want quite a lot. Why not one step at a time? I'm glad to see no
one has been using the argument that two stokes will be banned or
parts are not going to be available, I can see it now, police pulling
over and booking you for mowing your lawn with your grandad's Victor
utility, or Honda, Suzuki and Yamaha turning away hundreds of
million's of dollars in spare parts sales for two stoke parts. Only
last week I purchased a new head for my old DT 360, some 34 years old.
Most parts supplied to the manufactures come from out source
suppliers, I can't see these companies destroying all there moulds and
turning away sales.
If the major manufactures don't want these sales the some entrepreneur
will take up the challenge.
Logic would dictate a uniform 450cc motor under controlled conditions,
but there is not logic when you want to win and prove a point!
Just my thoughts, view's expressed are not necessarily endorsed by
this forum :)
I am one of the guys that is to blame for bringing 4 strokes into your
class, so if you have any questions please ask.
I take offence to people saying that they were bullied into accepting
the 4 strokes . It was done through the NSW club with the members
knowledge....admittedly, not all were for it at the start and some
will never be for it, but I believe most members can see the positives
now.
From a Queensland point of view, I can understand your questioning.
It appears that NSW club members who weren't in favour of the 450s
were providing information to Queenslanders but they weren't
necessarily providing accurate or positive and unfortunately that bred
a life of it's own. Stories of my motor coming direct from the
engineers at Kawasaki have been greatly exagerated. It was a left-
over 450 from their supercross program that had never been out of the
box.
We were given a 12 month trial under certain restraints and it that
trial was reviewed at the close of the season. The rules for the 450
trial were drawn up by three club members (Lee Marchant, David Koen
and Gary Hart) and I kept completely out of the rule-making process.
The 4 strokes have now been accepted by the NSW club and I am told the
other states will follow suit.
So there is no misunderstanding about the costs related to my 4
stroke, I'm happy to share the amount I've spent on it. My Kawasaki
motor cost $2200 and ran all year without even taking the valve cover
off. I initially had problems with the ignition (engine builder
recommended a non-genuine Vortex part) and as soon as I went back to a
genuine Kawasaki ignition box, it ran faultlessly.
Within the past few months, two new guys have bought 4 stroke motors
from the US and, landed here, owe them $2400-$2600 . They will
probably run them straight out of the box.
I have recently bought an electric start Suzuki and it owes me $2800.
I will modify my motor as I believe the 271's will have an advantage
over the stock 450 which I ran at Gatton last year. I know the
differnce as I have had experience with both.
After running one complete season I finished every race expect for two
heats when the car was introducted to the wall, so I believe
mechanically the 450 has shown itself to be very sound.
The NSW club will start the season with 6 x 450's and we've lost no
250/270s because of the change to my knowledge. David Koen has his car
up for sale but he tells us his decision not to race is a medical
health one and therefore nothing to do with the 450s
In response to why the local club in NSW adopted the 450 instead of
making start their own class....I'd suggest was purely numbers
driven. Queensland has some stability in numbers but the NSW club was
on the decline, and that scenario was not good for either club.
The 250s as they were two seasons ago could get maybe 8 cars to a race
meeting and on many occassions finished the night with less than half
still competing. And that was after motor changes. One of the first
nights I raced the 450, there were five other cars (all 250) racing
and between them, they had six engine blow-ups/changes on the night.
I know that if it was still just 2 strokes, five out of those six
who've moved to 450s would not be racing in this class.
Murray and others above are right in saying that the condition of cars
has nothing to do with the introduction of 450s, but it does impact on
reliability and race-ability. The 450s were only ever introducted to
compliment the 250s not take over from them.
Anyone that has any interest or questions regarding the 450 is more
than welcome to call or email me privately. I'm happy to share any
knowledge or answer any questions relating to my experiences with 450.
Workshop phone - 02 96864873
mobile phone - 0411 470 712
email - b...@grizzlyracing.com
Thanks for posting your message Bill. Well worded.
As it was my message about being bullied into accepting the 4 strokes,
I will
expand. The intorduction of a new class was a concern to start with,
But I can
see we need to look ahead with new engines, more reliable engines and
self starting
cars.
However, look at it from my point. We have a scheduled offical club
meeting and we
were asked to vote on the intorduction of 450cc into the Queensland
club. ( Both you
and Mal were racing that night with us ). The members voted and it was
deemed that
we WOULD NOT accept 450cc into the club. The meeting ended and we went
racing.
During the intermission, the club members were rounded up and asked to
vote again
on 450cc coming into queensland. ( Didn't we just do that was my
thought ). The
meeting became very heated as votes were being stacked and non
memebers were voting.
Anyway it was decieded that we would have another meeting in 4 weeks
to vote again
on 450cc coming into queensland.
At this next meeting, 450cc were voted in by the majority.
The issue of being bullied, was from a internal Queensland point of
view. The club
voted and the majority decesion was NOT to run 450cc. Why did we vote
again?? I
have a major concern on how this was handled, not on 450cc.
That was then, and this is now. Lets get on and go racing. I have made
some
investments in my car for the upcoming season, so I am ready to race
and
more importantly have some fun. Thats what its all about.
Thanks again for your posting Bill, See you on the track and good
luck.
Cheers, Muzza.
On Aug 20, 12:06 pm, b...@grizzlyracing.com wrote:
> I am one of the guys that is to blame for bringing 4 strokes into your
> class, so if you have any questions please ask.
> I take offence to people saying that they were bullied into accepting
> the 4 strokes . It was done through the NSW club with the members
> knowledge....admittedly, not all were for it at the start and some
> will never be for it, but I believe most members can see the positives
> now.
> From a Queensland point of view, I can understand your questioning.
> It appears that NSW club members who weren't in favour of the 450s
> were providing information to Queenslanders but they weren't
> necessarily providing accurate or positive and unfortunately that bred
> a life of it's own. Stories of my motor coming direct from the
> engineers at Kawasaki have been greatly exagerated. It was a left-
> over 450 from their supercross program that had never been out of the
> box.
> We were given a 12 month trial under certain restraints and it that
> trial was reviewed at the close of the season. The rules for the 450
> trial were drawn up by three club members (Lee Marchant, David Koen
> and Gary Hart) and I kept completely out of the rule-making process.
> The 4 strokes have now been accepted by the NSW club and I am told the
> other states will follow suit.
> So there is no misunderstanding about the costs related to my 4
> stroke, I'm happy to share the amount I've spent on it. My Kawasaki
> motor cost $2200 and ran all year without even taking the valve cover
> off. I initially had problems with the ignition (engine builder
> recommended a non-genuine Vortex part) and as soon as I went back to a
> genuine Kawasaki ignition box, it ran faultlessly.
> Within the past few months, two new guys have bought 4 stroke motors
> from the US and, landed here, owe them $2400-$2600 . They will
> probably run them straight out of the box.
> I have recently bought an electric start Suzuki and it owes me $2800.
> I will modify my motor as I believe the 271's will have an advantage
> over the stock 450 which I ran at Gatton last year. I know the
> differnce as I have had experience with both.
> After running one complete season I finished every race expect for two
> heats when the car was introducted to the wall, so I believe
> mechanically the 450 has shown itself to be very sound.
> The NSW club will start the season with 6 x 450's and we've lost no
> 250/270s because of the change to my knowledge. David Koen has his car
> up for sale but he tells us his decision not to race is a medical
> health one and therefore nothing to do with the 450s
> In response to why the local club in NSW adopted the 450 instead of
> making start their own class....I'd suggest was purely numbers
> driven. Queensland has some stability in numbers but the NSW club was
> on the decline, and that scenario was not good for either club.
> The 250s as they were two seasons ago could get maybe 8 cars to a race
> meeting and on many occassions finished the night with less than half
> still competing. And that was after motor changes. One of the first
> nights I raced the 450, there were five other cars (all 250) racing
> and between them, they had six engine blow-ups/changes on the night.
> I know that if it was still just 2 strokes, five out of those six
> who've moved to 450s would not be racing in this class.
> Murray and others above are right in saying that the condition of cars
> has nothing to do with the introduction of 450s, but it does impact on
> reliability and race-ability. The 450s were only ever introducted to
> compliment the 250s not take over from them.
> Anyone that has any interest or questions regarding the 450 is more
> than welcome to call or email me privately. I'm happy to share any
> knowledge or answer any questions relating to my experiences with 450.
> Workshop phone - 02 96864873
> mobile phone - 0411 470 712
> email - b...@grizzlyracing.com
Thanks Murray
Please do not take this as a shot at anyone.
Why would you vote on something which you had not even seen ? Seems a
little odd to me.
Having raced at that meeting and seeing we were invited to come on up
and race , I thought that we had a great time . The fact that Jay let
the Tiny Memorial trophy stay with his family in QLD was an extremely
nice gesture .
See we NSW racers are not bad people, unfortunately we have a few
people who still want to put up some sort of wall .
Anyone who wants to call me and ask me questions please feel free to
do so .
Anyone who wants to call me and tell me how we will encourage more
people to come and race in this great division please call me.
Jay and I have put our Micros up for a race day drive for the winner
of two go kart classes in May . An attempt to get some new faces
involved in Micros and give some rest to those that have their time
carrying the load.
Anyone who wants to call me and play politics and bitch go join the
Labor Party and run against Mr Rudd, Good luck.
Murray i will not get into the he said she said rubbuish as I believe
it is counterproductive to our sport .
If you want to ask me a question please do , the same goes for other
people . Lets try and get together and be one big happy family and not
end up with static displays sitting in our garages. Cheers Bill
On Aug 20, 5:01 pm, Muzza <mu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Thanks for posting your message Bill. Well worded.
> As it was my message about being bullied into accepting the 4 strokes,
> I will
> expand. The intorduction of a new class was a concern to start with,
> But I can
> see we need to look ahead with new engines, more reliable engines and
> self starting
> cars.
> However, look at it from my point. We have a scheduled offical club
> meeting and we
> were asked to vote on the intorduction of 450cc into the Queensland
> club. ( Both you
> and Mal were racing that night with us ). The members voted and it was
> deemed that
> we WOULD NOT accept 450cc into the club. The meeting ended and we went
> racing.
> During the intermission, the club members were rounded up and asked to
> vote again
> on 450cc coming into queensland. ( Didn't we just do that was my
> thought ). The
> meeting became very heated as votes were being stacked and non
> memebers were voting.
> Anyway it was decieded that we would have another meeting in 4 weeks
> to vote again
> on 450cc coming into queensland.
> At this next meeting, 450cc were voted in by the majority.
> The issue of being bullied, was from a internal Queensland point of
> view. The club
> voted and the majority decesion was NOT to run 450cc. Why did we vote
> again?? I
> have a major concern on how this was handled, not on 450cc.
> That was then, and this is now. Lets get on and go racing. I have made
> some
> investments in my car for the upcoming season, so I am ready to race
> and
> more importantly have some fun. Thats what its all about.
> Thanks again for your posting Bill, See you on the track and good
> luck.
> Cheers, Muzza.
> On Aug 20, 12:06 pm, b...@grizzlyracing.com wrote:
> > Hi guys my name is Bill Roberts.
> > I am one of the guys that is to blame for bringing 4 strokes into your
> > class, so if you have any questions please ask.
> > I take offence to people saying that they were bullied into accepting
> > the 4 strokes . It was done through the NSW club with the members
> > knowledge....admittedly, not all were for it at the start and some
> > will never be for it, but I believe most members can see the positives
> > now.
> > From a Queensland point of view, I can understand your questioning.
> > It appears that NSW club members who weren't in favour of the 450s
> > were providing information to Queenslanders but they weren't
> > necessarily providing accurate or positive and unfortunately that bred
> > a life of it's own. Stories of my motor coming direct from the
> > engineers at Kawasaki have been greatly exagerated. It was a left-
> > over 450 from their supercross program that had never been out of the
> > box.
> > We were given a 12 month trial under certain restraints and it that
> > trial was reviewed at the close of the season. The rules for the 450
> > trial were drawn up by three club members (Lee Marchant, David Koen
> > and Gary Hart) and I kept completely out of the rule-making process.
> > The 4 strokes have now been accepted by the NSW club and I am told the
> > other states will follow suit.
> > So there is no misunderstanding about the costs related to my 4
> > stroke, I'm happy to share the amount I've spent on it. My Kawasaki
> > motor cost $2200 and ran all year without even taking the valve cover
> > off. I initially had problems with the ignition (engine builder
> > recommended a non-genuine Vortex part) and as soon as I went back to a
> > genuine Kawasaki ignition box, it ran faultlessly.
> > Within the past few months, two new guys have bought 4 stroke motors
> > from the US and, landed here, owe them $2400-$2600 . They will
> > probably run them straight out of the box.
> > I have recently bought an electric start Suzuki and it owes me $2800.
> > I will modify my motor as I believe the 271's will have an advantage
> > over the stock 450 which I ran at Gatton last year. I know the
> > differnce as I have had experience with both.
> > After running one complete season I finished every race expect for two
> > heats when the car was introducted to the wall, so I believe
> > mechanically the 450 has shown itself to be very sound.
> > The NSW club will start the season with 6 x 450's and we've lost no
> > 250/270s because of the change to my knowledge. David Koen has his car
> > up for sale but he tells us his decision not to race is a medical
> > health one and therefore nothing to do with the 450s
> > In response to why the local club in NSW adopted the 450 instead of
> > making start their own class....I'd suggest was purely numbers
> > driven. Queensland has some stability in numbers but the NSW club was
> > on the decline, and that scenario was not good for either club.
> > The 250s as they were two seasons ago could get maybe 8 cars to a race
> > meeting and on many occassions finished the night with less than half
> > still competing. And that was after motor changes. One of the first
> > nights I raced the 450, there were five other cars (all 250) racing
> > and between them, they had six engine blow-ups/changes on the night.
> > I know that if it was still just 2 strokes, five out of those six
> > who've moved to 450s would not be racing in this class.
> > Murray and others above are right in saying that the condition of cars
> > has nothing to do with the introduction of 450s, but it does impact on
> > reliability and race-ability. The 450s were only ever introducted to
> > compliment the 250s not take over from them.
> > Anyone that has any interest or questions regarding the 450 is more
> > than welcome to call or email me privately. I'm happy to share any
> > knowledge or answer any questions relating to my experiences with 450.
> > Workshop phone - 02 96864873
> > mobile phone - 0411 470 712
> > email - b...@grizzlyracing.com- Hide quoted text -
> Thanks Murray
> Please do not take this as a shot at anyone.
> Why would you vote on something which you had not even seen ? Seems a
> little odd to me.
> Having raced at that meeting and seeing we were invited to come on up
> and race , I thought that we had a great time . The fact that Jay let
> the Tiny Memorial trophy stay with his family in QLD was an extremely
> nice gesture .
> See we NSW racers are not bad people, unfortunately we have a few
> people who still want to put up some sort of wall .
> Anyone who wants to call me and ask me questions please feel free to
> do so .
> Anyone who wants to call me and tell me how we will encourage more
> people to come and race in this great division please call me.
> Jay and I have put our Micros up for a race day drive for the winner
> of two go kart classes in May . An attempt to get some new faces
> involved in Micros and give some rest to those that have their time
> carrying the load.
> Anyone who wants to call me and play politics and bitch go join the
> Labor Party and run against Mr Rudd, Good luck.
> Murray i will not get into the he said she said rubbuish as I believe
> it is counterproductive to our sport .
> If you want to ask me a question please do , the same goes for other
> people . Lets try and get together and be one big happy family and not
> end up with static displays sitting in our garages. Cheers Bill
> On Aug 20, 5:01 pm, Muzza <mu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for posting your message Bill. Well worded.
> > As it was my message about being bullied into accepting the 4 strokes,
> > I will
> > expand. The intorduction of a new class was a concern to start with,
> > But I can
> > see we need to look ahead with new engines, more reliable engines and
> > self starting
> > cars.
> > However, look at it from my point. We have a scheduled offical club
> > meeting and we
> > were asked to vote on the intorduction of 450cc into the Queensland
> > club. ( Both you
> > and Mal were racing that night with us ). The members voted and it was
> > deemed that
> > we WOULD NOT accept 450cc into the club. The meeting ended and we went
> > racing.
> > During the intermission, the club members were rounded up and asked to
> > vote again
> > on 450cc coming into queensland. ( Didn't we just do that was my
> > thought ). The
> > meeting became very heated as votes were being stacked and non
> > memebers were voting.
> > Anyway it was decieded that we would have another meeting in 4 weeks
> > to vote again
> > on 450cc coming into queensland.
> > At this next meeting, 450cc were voted in by the majority.
> > The issue of being bullied, was from a internal Queensland point of
> > view. The club
> > voted and the majority decesion was NOT to run 450cc. Why did we vote
> > again?? I
> > have a major concern on how this was handled, not on 450cc.
> > That was then, and this is now. Lets get on and go racing. I have made
> > some
> > investments in my car for the upcoming season, so I am ready to race
> > and
> > more importantly have some fun. Thats what its all about.
> > Thanks again for your posting Bill, See you on the track and good
> > luck.
> > Cheers, Muzza.
> > On Aug 20, 12:06 pm, b...@grizzlyracing.com wrote:
> > > Hi guys my name is Bill Roberts.
> > > I am one of the guys that is to blame for bringing 4 strokes into your
> > > class, so if you have any questions please ask.
> > > I take offence to people saying that they were bullied into accepting
> > > the 4 strokes . It was done through the NSW club with the members
> > > knowledge....admittedly, not all were for it at the start and some
> > > will never be for it, but I believe most members can see the positives
> > > now.
> > > From a Queensland point of view, I can understand your questioning.
> > > It appears that NSW club members who weren't in favour of the 450s
> > > were providing information to Queenslanders but they weren't
> > > necessarily providing accurate or positive and unfortunately that bred
> > > a life of it's own. Stories of my motor coming direct from the
> > > engineers at Kawasaki have been greatly exagerated. It was a left-
> > > over 450 from their supercross program that had never been out of the
> > > box.
> > > We were given a 12 month trial under certain restraints and it that
> > > trial was reviewed at the close of the season. The rules for the 450
> > > trial were drawn up by three club members (Lee Marchant, David Koen
> > > and Gary Hart) and I kept completely out of the rule-making process.
> > > The 4 strokes have now been accepted by the NSW club and I am told the
> > > other states will follow suit.
> > > So there is no misunderstanding about the costs related to my 4
> > > stroke, I'm happy to share the amount I've spent on it. My Kawasaki
> > > motor cost $2200 and ran all year without even taking the valve cover
> > > off. I initially had problems with the ignition (engine builder
> > > recommended a non-genuine Vortex part) and as soon as I went back to a
> > > genuine Kawasaki ignition box, it ran faultlessly.
> > > Within the past few months, two new guys have bought 4 stroke motors
> > > from the US and, landed here, owe them $2400-$2600 . They will
> > > probably run them straight out of the box.
> > > I have recently bought an electric start Suzuki and it owes me $2800.
> > > I will modify my motor as I believe the 271's will have an advantage
> > > over the stock 450 which I ran at Gatton last year. I know the
> > > differnce as I have had experience with both.
> > > After running one complete season I finished every race expect for two
> > > heats when the car was introducted to the wall, so I believe
> > > mechanically the 450 has shown itself to be very sound.
> > > The NSW club will start the season with 6 x 450's and we've lost no
> > > 250/270s because of the change to my knowledge. David Koen has his car
> > > up for sale but he tells us his decision not to race is a medical
> > > health one and therefore nothing to do with the 450s
> > > In response to why the local club in NSW adopted the 450 instead of
> > > making start their own class....I'd suggest was purely numbers
> > > driven. Queensland has some stability in numbers but the NSW club was
> > > on the decline, and that scenario was not good for either club.
> > > The 250s as they were two seasons ago could get maybe 8 cars to a race
> > > meeting and on many occassions finished the night with less than half
> > > still competing. And that was after motor changes. One of the first
> > > nights I raced the 450, there were five other cars (all 250) racing
> > > and between them, they had six engine blow-ups/changes on the night.
> > > I know that if it was still just 2 strokes, five out of those six
> > > who've moved to 450s would not be racing in this class.
> > > Murray and others above are right in saying that the condition of cars
> > > has nothing to do with the introduction of 450s, but it does impact on
> > > reliability and race-ability. The 450s were only ever introducted to
> > > compliment the 250s not take over from them.
> > > Anyone that has any interest or questions regarding the 450 is more
> > > than welcome to call or email me privately. I'm happy to share any
> > > knowledge or answer any questions relating to my experiences with 450.
> > > Workshop phone - 02 96864873
> > > mobile phone - 0411 470 712
> > > email - b...@grizzlyracing.com- Hide quoted text -
HI THERE GUYS, SHOULD INTRODUCE MYSELF, DEAN BAULCH, HAVE JUST
BOUGHT(BUYING) OLDER CAR OFF MURRAY, TO RACE IN NEW VIC CLASS
I have been looking at all this kerfuffle, and Microsprints, before
making the decision to go ahead and purchase, and would REALLY LIKE to
add a little middle ground, from someone who:
A) doesnt have a previous history in either 'camp'
B) Thinks Micro's are a great class with STACKS of potential if
handled right
C) Has been a round open wheel speedway since 7years old (over 25
years now) and seen the politics stuff good classes, and upset good
people
My Father raced a class called open sportsman, for all that time, and
most of it on a lean budget. After all I'm one of four kids, so he had
other expenses, besides his toy. For years there was a choice of
motors, you had zephyrs running against holden red motors, and the
option of a ford pre crossflow, or oodles of pre65 stuff if you
wished. It was a fun, family oriented environment, but the racing was
still close, and the class even held the occasional track record.
After a while the family aspect faded out, so called trial 'stock' v6
holdens came in, and things got nasty.
The part of this history that I dont want to see Micro's replicate....
is when after the v6's becam the majority, and where upset that the 3
straight sixes stille left were actually competitive at a couple of
tracks, they then pushed to have them banned, on the argument that
they were more expensive to run etc... This was fairly dodgy, as
whilst the straight sixes WERE allowed mods and spent good money to
build, they were also built for reliability, and in our case, ran for
three seasons before doing a set of rings, whilst v6 competitors were
blowing up as many as four motors a season, which is a lot of late
nights if you work 12hour days, 6days a week.
So... too cut a long story short, my father, who never took well to
being bullied, got vsc permission to run a cheaper, more reliable,
falcon6, and the class promptly disbanded, renamed itself NOS
(national open sportsman) SPRINTS and cosied under the wing of the
sprintcars
MY OPINION BASED ON EXPERIENCE OUTSIDE THE CLASS
1) Dont get hot headed with politics, we are here to have fun first
and foremost aren't we?? (Unless you really think you are the next
Brooke Tattnell)
2) Variety should only build the class, as long as it is reasonable
parity. And yes, there are plenty of people put off by two strokes,
myself included! I will run one, because thats what I've bought, and
because I think the variety is needed down here to start it off.
3) Affordability and ENJOYMENT is what will make or break the class. I
could have ripped the fordmotor and clutch out off our OpenSporty,
dropped in a holden v6 heavier nerf bars and a nasty attitude, but I
didnt.... Like wise I could have put off saving for a house, adn tried
my luck in a f500. These two things are what attracted me to put my
money where my mouth is where Microsprints are concerned in Victoria.
4) We need to be open in what is fair between 450 fourstroke and
250/270 two strokes... There are a couple of options here... first of
all, consider weight parity or inlet size/rev limit restriction, this
can even work between heavily worked 270's and more basic 250's.
Or Alternatively, maybe amongst those who are fans of the 250's, have
a seperate pointscore, eligible only to those vehicles, that way it
doesnt matter if guys spend squillions on 450's or not, they can have
a little sash, for coming first, whilst the competition you are
interested in goes on behind.
5) Just my thoughts, but above all KEEP IT FRIENDLY!! Stress and Aggro
are never going to improve your night out at the track, you could save
money and stay home with the missus if thats what you enjoy LOL
> Thanks Murray
> Please do not take this as a shot at anyone.
> Why would you vote on something which you had not even seen ? Seems a
> little odd to me.
> Having raced at that meeting and seeing we were invited to come on up
> and race , I thought that we had a great time . The fact that Jay let
> the Tiny Memorial trophy stay with his family in QLD was an extremely
> nice gesture .
> See we NSW racers are not bad people, unfortunately we have a few
> people who still want to put up some sort of wall .
> Anyone who wants to call me and ask me questions please feel free to
> do so .
> Anyone who wants to call me and tell me how we will encourage more
> people to come and race in this great division please call me.
> Jay and I have put our Micros up for a race day drive for the winner
> of two go kart classes in May . An attempt to get some new faces
> involved in Micros and give some rest to those that have their time
> carrying the load.
> Anyone who wants to call me and play politics and bitch go join the
> Labor Party and run against Mr Rudd, Good luck.
> Murray i will not get into the he said she said rubbuish as I believe
> it is counterproductive to our sport .
> If you want to ask me a question please do , the same goes for other
> people . Lets try and get together and be one big happy family and not
> end up with static displays sitting in our garages. Cheers Bill
> On Aug 20, 5:01 pm, Muzza <mu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > Thanks for posting your message Bill. Well worded.
> > As it was my message about being bullied into accepting the 4 strokes,
> > I will
> > expand. The intorduction of a new class was a concern to start with,
> > But I can
> > see we need to look ahead with new engines, more reliable engines and
> > self starting
> > cars.
> > However, look at it from my point. We have a scheduled offical club
> > meeting and we
> > were asked to vote on the intorduction of 450cc into the Queensland
> > club. ( Both you
> > and Mal were racing that night with us ). The members voted and it was
> > deemed that
> > we WOULD NOT accept 450cc into the club. The meeting ended and we went
> > racing.
> > During the intermission, the club members were rounded up and asked to
> > vote again
> > on 450cc coming into queensland. ( Didn't we just do that was my
> > thought ). The
> > meeting became very heated as votes were being stacked and non
> > memebers were voting.
> > Anyway it was decieded that we would have another meeting in 4 weeks
> > to vote again
> > on 450cc coming into queensland.
> > At this next meeting, 450cc were voted in by the majority.
> > The issue of being bullied, was from a internal Queensland point of
> > view. The club
> > voted and the majority decesion was NOT to run 450cc. Why did we vote
> > again?? I
> > have a major concern on how this was handled, not on 450cc.
> > That was then, and this is now. Lets get on and go racing. I have made
> > some
> > investments in my car for the upcoming season, so I am ready to race
> > and
> > more importantly have some fun. Thats what its all about.
> > Thanks again for your posting Bill, See you on the track and good
> > luck.
> > Cheers, Muzza.
> > On Aug 20, 12:06 pm, b...@grizzlyracing.com wrote:
> > > Hi guys my name is Bill Roberts.
> > > I am one of the guys that is to blame for bringing 4 strokes into your
> > > class, so if you have any questions please ask.
> > > I take offence to people saying that they were bullied into accepting
> > > the 4 strokes . It was done through the NSW club with the members
> > > knowledge....admittedly, not all were for it at the start and some
> > > will never be for it, but I believe most members can see the positives
> > > now.
> > > From a Queensland point of view, I can understand your questioning.
> > > It appears that NSW club members who weren't in favour of the 450s
> > > were providing information to Queenslanders but they weren't
> > > necessarily providing accurate or positive and unfortunately that bred
> > > a life of it's own. Stories of my motor coming direct from the
> > > engineers at Kawasaki have been greatly exagerated. It was a left-
> > > over 450 from their supercross program that had never been out of the
> > > box.
> > > We were given a 12 month trial under certain restraints and it that
> > > trial was reviewed at the close of the season. The rules for the 450
> > > trial were drawn up by three club members (Lee Marchant, David Koen
> > > and Gary Hart) and I kept completely out of the rule-making process.
> > > The 4 strokes have now been accepted by the NSW club and I am told the
> > > other states will follow suit.
> > > So there is no misunderstanding about the costs related to my 4
> > > stroke, I'm happy to share the amount I've spent on it. My Kawasaki
> > > motor cost $2200 and ran all year without even taking the valve cover
> > > off. I initially had problems with the ignition (engine builder
> > > recommended a non-genuine Vortex part) and as soon as I went back to a
> > > genuine Kawasaki ignition box, it ran faultlessly.
> > > Within the past few months, two new guys have bought 4 stroke motors
> > > from the US and, landed here, owe them $2400-$2600 . They will
> > > probably run them straight out of the box.
> > > I have recently bought an electric start Suzuki and it owes me $2800.
> > > I will modify my motor as I believe the 271's will have an advantage
> > > over the stock 450 which I ran at Gatton last year. I know the
> > > differnce as I have had experience with both.
> > > After running one complete season I finished every race expect for two
> > > heats when the car was introducted to the wall, so I believe
> > > mechanically the 450 has shown itself to be very sound.
> > > The NSW club will start the season with 6 x 450's and we've lost no
> > > 250/270s because of the change to my knowledge. David Koen has
Welcome to the Microsprints, i have to say i agree with what
you have said, but there is always a but, it is time some people just
let the 450 issue go and focus on there own cars to make them more
competitive, my comments under Goody2 were simply some of the guys
have had it there way for so long they cannot embrace changes, there
is also the case of depends on who puts the changes forward if it is
exceptable or not depends on the personnel views of others about that
person, and were everyone missed the point about old cars that some
people who have these old cars and not all do not maintain them
correctly or replace parts when they should are going off about 450s
because they believe they are going to be further behind, all i was
trying to do here was show that there are other motives behind the
negative comments that are being thrown around about 450s.
In saying all that, i for one are purely focussing on my own Cars and
the people who want to be positive to make this division grow.
Once again Welcome to the Microsprints and good luck with your
Reacing.
> HI THERE GUYS, SHOULD INTRODUCE MYSELF, DEAN BAULCH, HAVE JUST
> BOUGHT(BUYING) OLDER CAR OFF MURRAY, TO RACE IN NEW VIC CLASS
> I have been looking at all this kerfuffle, and Microsprints, before
> making the decision to go ahead and purchase, and would REALLY LIKE to
> add a little middle ground, from someone who:
> A) doesnt have a previous history in either 'camp'
> B) Thinks Micro's are a great class with STACKS of potential if
> handled right
> C) Has been a round open wheel speedway since 7years old (over 25
> years now) and seen the politics stuff good classes, and upset good
> people
> My Father raced a class called open sportsman, for all that time, and
> most of it on a lean budget. After all I'm one of four kids, so he had
> other expenses, besides his toy. For years there was a choice of
> motors, you had zephyrs running against holden red motors, and the
> option of a ford pre crossflow, or oodles of pre65 stuff if you
> wished. It was a fun, family oriented environment, but the racing was
> still close, and the class even held the occasional track record.
> After a while the family aspect faded out, so called trial 'stock' v6
> holdens came in, and things got nasty.
> The part of this history that I dont want to see Micro's replicate....
> is when after the v6's becam the majority, and where upset that the 3
> straight sixes stille left were actually competitive at a couple of
> tracks, they then pushed to have them banned, on the argument that
> they were more expensive to run etc... This was fairly dodgy, as
> whilst the straight sixes WERE allowed mods and spent good money to
> build, they were also built for reliability, and in our case, ran for
> three seasons before doing a set of rings, whilst v6 competitors were
> blowing up as many as four motors a season, which is a lot of late
> nights if you work 12hour days, 6days a week.
> So... too cut a long story short, my father, who never took well to
> being bullied, got vsc permission to run a cheaper, more reliable,
> falcon6, and the class promptly disbanded, renamed itself NOS
> (national open sportsman) SPRINTS and cosied under the wing of the
> sprintcars
> MY OPINION BASED ON EXPERIENCE OUTSIDE THE CLASS
> 1) Dont get hot headed with politics, we are here to have fun first
> and foremost aren't we?? (Unless you really think you are the next
> Brooke Tattnell)
> 2) Variety should only build the class, as long as it is reasonable
> parity. And yes, there are plenty of people put off by two strokes,
> myself included! I will run one, because thats what I've bought, and
> because I think the variety is needed down here to start it off.
> 3) Affordability and ENJOYMENT is what will make or break the class. I
> could have ripped the fordmotor and clutch out off our OpenSporty,
> dropped in a holden v6 heavier nerf bars and a nasty attitude, but I
> didnt.... Like wise I could have put off saving for a house, adn tried
> my luck in a f500. These two things are what attracted me to put my
> money where my mouth is where Microsprints are concerned in Victoria.
> 4) We need to be open in what is fair between 450 fourstroke and
> 250/270 two strokes... There are a couple of options here... first of
> all, consider weight parity or inlet size/rev limit restriction, this
> can even work between heavily worked 270's and more basic 250's.
> Or Alternatively, maybe amongst those who are fans of the 250's, have
> a seperate pointscore, eligible only to those vehicles, that way it
> doesnt matter if guys spend squillions on 450's or not, they can have
> a little sash, for coming first, whilst the competition you are
> interested in goes on behind.
> 5) Just my thoughts, but above all KEEP IT FRIENDLY!! Stress and Aggro
> are never going to improve your night out at the track, you could save
> money and stay home with the missus if thats what you enjoy LOL
> On Aug 20, 5:44 pm, b...@grizzlyracing.com wrote:
> > Thanks Murray
> > Please do not take this as a shot at anyone.
> > Why would you vote on something which you had not even seen ? Seems a
> > little odd to me.
> > Having raced at that meeting and seeing we were invited to come on up
> > and race , I thought that we had a great time . The fact that Jay let
> > the Tiny Memorial trophy stay with his family in QLD was an extremely
> > nice gesture .
> > See we NSW racers are not bad people, unfortunately we have a few
> > people who still want to put up some sort of wall .
> > Anyone who wants to call me and ask me questions please feel free to
> > do so .
> > Anyone who wants to call me and tell me how we will encourage more
> > people to come and race in this great division please call me.
> > Jay and I have put our Micros up for a race day drive for the winner
> > of two go kart classes in May . An attempt to get some new faces
> > involved in Micros and give some rest to those that have their time
> > carrying the load.
> > Anyone who wants to call me and play politics and bitch go join the
> > Labor Party and run against Mr Rudd, Good luck.
> > Murray i will not get into the he said she said rubbuish as I believe
> > it is counterproductive to our sport .
> > If you want to ask me a question please do , the same goes for other
> > people . Lets try and get together and be one big happy family and not
> > end up with static displays sitting in our garages. Cheers Bill
> > On Aug 20, 5:01 pm, Muzza <mu...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > > Thanks for posting your message Bill. Well worded.
> > > As it was my message about being bullied into accepting the 4 strokes,
> > > I will
> > > expand. The intorduction of a new class was a concern to start with,
> > > But I can
> > > see we need to look ahead with new engines, more reliable engines and
> > > self starting
> > > cars.
> > > However, look at it from my point. We have a scheduled offical club
> > > meeting and we
> > > were asked to vote on the intorduction of 450cc into the Queensland
> > > club. ( Both you
> > > and Mal were racing that night with us ). The members voted and it was
> > > deemed that
> > > we WOULD NOT accept 450cc into the club. The meeting ended and we went
> > > racing.
> > > During the intermission, the club members were rounded up and asked to
> > > vote again
> > > on 450cc coming into queensland. ( Didn't we just do that was my
> > > thought ). The
> > > meeting became very heated as votes were being stacked and non
> > > memebers were voting.
> > > Anyway it was decieded that we would have another meeting in 4 weeks
> > > to vote again
> > > on 450cc coming into queensland.
> > > At this next meeting, 450cc were voted in by the majority.
> > > The issue of being bullied, was from a internal Queensland point of
> > > view. The club
> > > voted and the majority decesion was NOT to run 450cc. Why did we vote
> > > again?? I
> > > have a major concern on how this was handled, not on 450cc.
> > > That was then, and this is now. Lets get on and go racing. I have made
> > > some
> > > investments in my car for the upcoming season, so I am ready to race
> > > and
> > > more importantly have some fun. Thats what its all about.
> > > Thanks again for your posting Bill, See you on the track and good
> > > luck.
> > > Cheers, Muzza.
> > > On Aug 20, 12:06 pm, b...@grizzlyracing.com wrote:
> > > > Hi guys my name is Bill Roberts.
> > > > I am one of the guys that is to blame for bringing 4 strokes into your
> > > > class, so if you have any questions please ask.
> > > > I take offence to people saying that they were bullied into accepting
> > > > the 4 strokes . It was done through the NSW club with the members
> > > > knowledge....admittedly, not all were for it at the start and some
> > > > will never be for it, but I believe most members can see the positives
> > > > now.
> > > > From a Queensland point of view, I can understand your questioning.
> > > > It appears that NSW club members who weren't in favour of the 450s
> > > > were providing information to Queenslanders but they weren't
> > > > necessarily providing accurate or positive and unfortunately that bred
> > > > a life of it's own. Stories of my motor coming direct from the
> > > > engineers at Kawasaki have been greatly exagerated. It was a left-
> > > > over 450 from their supercross program that had never been out of the
> > > > box.
> > > > We were given a 12 month trial under certain restraints and it that
> > > > trial was reviewed at the close of the season. The rules for the 450
> > > > trial were drawn up by three club members
|
