Meeting with Minister Marion Scrymgour Wednesday 4^th of February

 

This is a summary of the discussion. Actions arising from the meeting are listed at the end.

People present at this meeting:

Minister Scrymgour, Eva Lawler

DET: Kevin Gillan, Alan Green, Jeremy ?

FOBL: Brian Devlin, Kathy McMahon, Kendall Trudgen, Leon White, Mandawuy Yunupingu, Yalmay Yunupingu.

Yirrkala School Council: Djuwalpi Marika and Rarriwuy Marika. 

 

1. Cabinet reshuffle

 

Paul Henderson is the new Education and Training Minister, but Marion Scrymgour will continue to “oversee” the Transforming Indigenous Education strategy, including the transition to the four hours of English in the morning policy, Early Childhood reform, and Local Education Boards. Nonetheless Paul Henderson will implement the “four hours of English” decision and other parts of the new strategy.  There will be a launch of Transforming Indigenous Education in a few weeks. Additional resources will be allocated to it.

 

2. Community agreements

 

Marion Scrymgour told the meeting, “I understand community wishes; all communities except Yirrkala and Maningrida are happy with the transition to four hours of English a day and schools have submitted their transitional programs”. These two communities would be visited for further consultation.

 

3. The future of the Step model of bilingual education

 

The step model of bilingual education does not fit into the four hours of English regime, Marion Scrymgour explained.

 

Leon White explained to her that “Yirrkala’s Remote Partnership agreement included much discussion about the step model and DET funding for moderation of Yolngu matha across the region. DET has not kept to this”.

 

4. Staff teaching vernacular languages and culture

 

Marion Scrymgour said, “Language and Culture are very important to me, and we are sick of hearing that DET is not supportive of it, and the stories going around that Indigenous staff will lose their jobs.  This is not true.

 

In comparison with his experiences in WA and his research in this area Kevin Gillan said he was surprised that so little Language and Culture was taught in NT schools. 

 

5. Understanding local differences

 

Djuwalpi Marika emphasised that every community is different; at Yirrkala, for example, the Bothways education program is very important. Language is sacred. He made it clear that he did not want Yirrkala children to “have broken language” like in many communities with English-only programs. “We don’t want broken language – our children should be able to read, write and speak in their own language”, he reiterated.

 

6. Poor results

 

Marion Scrymgour noted that the national test results for bilingual schools and non-bilingual schools in 2008 were not good.

 

7. Attendance

 

Attendance is a key focus. Marion Scrymgour was adamant about this.

 

Djuwalpi Marika explained that “we are having meetings with the police about getting children to school. We will have these meetings every month so we can report our progress to each other. You must let us do it ourselves.”

 

8. Listen to local leaders

 

Djuwalpi told the Minister that the leadership at Yirrkala should be listened to, “instead of bureaucrats making decisions for us”. “We want our children’s education in two languages. The government is telling us what to do and not allowing our leadership to decide”. Rarriwuy Marika supported him: “you talk about partnership here but there is no partnership. You have already made the decision and will not listen to what we are saying”.

 

9. No language policy for isolated Indigenous schools

 

Marion Scrymgour conceded that she was surprised to find there was no language policy for government schools when she entered parliament.

 

10. Why insist on four hours of English instruction in the morning?

 

Marion Scrymgour explained it this way: “Research shows that the important time for learning is in the morning and the children must be immersed in English early”.

 

This idea was strongly debated. For example, Leon White pointed out that when we consider the role of Yolngu Matha “we are talking about the language of instruction…It isn’t about learning Yolngu Matha or English. And if you want to look at testing and results you need to look at the tests, how they’ve changed over time, the timing of the tests…Everything has changed except the kids, and their language background that is still not being taken into account”. He went on to say, regarding the model used at Yirrkala: students from Year 4 on already have four hours of English. Introducing four hours of English in Early Childhood won’t work, and it will be a nightmare. And it devalues the role of Indigenous teachers”.

 

Kendall Trudgen asked, “What is the best way forward for this meeting? Otherwise we will remain at loggerheads about the model of education and the role of English in Yolngu education”.

 

11. Local Education Boards

 

Marion Scrymgour claimed that “The best way forward is to have Local Education Boards. There will be one for Yolngu schools and one for Warlpiri Schools. This is what I believe, and I have DET people like Rob Picton going out talking to people about these Boards”.

 

12. Letters to the Minister from Jeannie Egan and Cecily Napanangka Granites.

 

Kendall Trudgen said, “We would like to make representations from FOBL members not able to be at the meeting. We have two letters from Yuendumu, one from Jeannie Egan and one from Cecily Napanangka Granites. There are also Petitions from Maningrida and Yuendumu”.

 

Marion Scrymgour replied, “I have Jeannie’s letter, and I will respond to both letters. I also know about the petitions and will be visiting Maningrida next week to discuss the issues with people there. I say again that all the communities are happy with the move to four hours of English a day except Yirrkala and Maningrida”.

 

13. Problems with the national tests

 

Yalmay Yunupingu explained that “in the Naplan tests, the English language is too complicated for our Year 3 students. When I was doing them with the children, I could see that often the children knew the maths answers but they can’t understand what the question says. Why can’t our children be assessed in Yolngu Matha at Year 3 because they can read and write in Yolngu Matha?”

Marion Scrymgour’s reply was, “The time for excuses is finished. The results are not good enough”.

Djuwalpi Marika corrected here. “Look! Our seven year olds can’t learn everything in English! They will be saying “Nha, Nha?” (What? what?), and you can’t learn like that. The teacher will be saying ‘Blah Blah” and the children will be saying “Nha, Nha?” That is not good learning”.

 

14. Why two teachers per class?

 

Marion Scrymgour said, “I’m not saying I don’t value Indigenous staff. But I do ask why there are two teachers in every class? Bilingual should be one [teacher]. I have read all the research on bilingual, both national and international, and it says the teacher should be bilingual. Our indigenous staff don’t have this skill set”.

 

15. A request to test the Year 3 children in Yolngu Matha

 

Yalmay Marika asked if Year 3 students could be tested in Yolngu Matha as well as English to give them a chance to demonstrate their proficiency in reading and writing.

 

Kevin Gillan responded to this suggestion, stating that “DET would be willing to commit resources to support Yalmay’s idea to develop tests in Yolngu Matha for Year 3 but the students would have to do English tests as well”. Marion Scrymgour added: “Yalmay’s idea is a good one; we have to work together on this”.

 

Brian Devlin referred to bilingual education research which shows that bilingually educated students begin to show greater improvements at Year 5 and Year 7 compared to their English-only peers. In reply Alan Green claimed that “The pattern in the data DET has does not show the gap between English outcomes at Year 5 and 7 in bilingual schools becoming narrower.  It is in fact widening”.

 

 

16. A statement from Mandawuy

 

Mandawuy Yunupingu made a short speech as follows:

I want to talk about Yolngu strength; either in the English or the Yolngu Matha speaking domain. Yolngu leaders see our language as sacred. Yolngu kids think in their own language which can then inform them about English and their own form of understanding, about its meanings and its values. That shouldn’t be underestimated. Ignoring this is the view of seeing Yolngu children as under-privileged.  I consider Yolngu children to be as clever as any one else in the whole world. They should not be asked to leave their cleverness outside the classroom door. Not my kids or my grandkids. They should have equal rights, the same rights as any kids in the world, whether they are Chinese, or Balanda, the equal right to learn in their own language and to be judged as equal to anyone else.

What Mandawuy said drew this response from Marion Scrymgour:

DET must revisit the Yirrkala Remote Leaning Partnership then and Hendo must re-sign it. Re Numbulwar, I believe you have representations from people there. I have met with elders in the Katherine Region, and we are allocating $1.5 million dollars for revitalisation work so there can be proper structured programs so I’m not all bad! I have listened to elders in the region, and it broke my heart.

 

17. The data tabled in the legislative assembly on November 26

 

 Kendall Trudgen reminded the meeting of the agreed agenda: “We need to get on and discuss the data that was presented in parliament in November”.

(At this point the Minister left the room to make an urgent phone call).

 

Brian Devlin explained the group’s concerns this way:

To start, it needs to be said they we share many of the Minister’s concerns about the need to improve student learning outcomes, to lift attendance rates and increase the number of trained Indigenous educators and linguists. Getting better outcomes for students in our remote schools is the goal for all of us here. Most of the people in this room have been involved in this area for many years.

 

The concern here, however, is with the quality of the data presented to Parliament by Minister Scrymgour on November 26, 2008. This data set is partial, incomplete, invalid and unreliable. It is as if only eight pairs of dirty tattered shorts have been taken out of a load of dirty washing and hung up for public scrutiny and ridicule. This set of data does not tell us that students in bilingual programs are doing worse than students in non-bilingual schools. The choice of schools is problematic; for example, leaving out Murrupurtiyanuwu Catholic School from the list of bilingual schools (a school that won a National Literacy Award in 2003), but using Xavier CEC (Murrupurtiyanuwu’s feeder secondary school) as a non-bilingual school. The data from the non-bilingual schools is not there, so no one can compare the results. There is no transparency.

 

FOBL members want to see this data done again, and to see that it is done properly. We want accurate representation of the data.

 

Kevin Gillan agreed with some of these points, pointing out the data is only a snapshot. “DET will soon be able to release data that shows bilingual schools are not doing as well as other schools”.

 

 (Minister returns to the meeting)

Kevin Gillan asserted that DET would be willing to work with Brian and others at CDU to have a look at the data. Brian Devlin said he would be pleased to work with DET people to help create clear, transparent data.

 

18. The aims of bilingual education

 

Brian Devlin pointed out that in 1986 when he was PEO Bilingual, not one aim of the official bilingual program aims related to language maintenance but that’s what Indigenous people talk about in communities, and have done again here to-day. So it’s important that the outcomes we focus on are broader than a Year 3 English test.

 

19. The need for drama teachers

 

Yalmay Yunupingu said teachers were looking at better ways to teach language, and suggested the addition of a trained drama teacher to school’s staffing allocation. Kevin Gillan agreed this was a good idea, and said this could already be done within current staffing formula if staff agreed to it. There is however difficulty recruiting trained drama teachers.

 

20. Summing up

There was agreement for follow-up meetings to work on the data. This would happen at CDU with the Professor Devlin, and DET officers.

Kevin Gillan agreed that DET would support the development of the use of Yolngu matha in testing Year 3 students.

DET officers would also consider the language backgrounds of students and the cultural suitability of some test items (Ellen Herden’s team is working on NAPLAN test items and student responses, looking across regions to see which test items students couldn’t do. He said he was not advocating that teachers teach to the test but this type of information will be useful to teachers).

Marion Scrymgour finished the meeting by saying it had been a good meeting and that it would be good to have regular meetings like this. She re-iterated that everyone needs to work together to achieve better results for our kids. She said that as Attorney General she would be making sure that the truancy laws are enacted so that kids get into schools. She realises that DET has to make sure there are rooms for them, and chairs for them to sit in. DET is working on this now.

Kevin Gillan explained that Chris Sarra and Jack Ladwig are currently visiting communities to consult with communities to report on effective ways to restructure DET.

 

Kendall Trudgen thanked the Minister for her time to-day on behalf of FOBL; he also thanked the two community representatives from Yirrkala who had flown in specifically for the meeting. 

 

Meeting finished at 4.30pm.

 

Agreed Actions as result of meeting

 

Action	Who’ll do it
Scrutiny of data presented to Parliament in November 2008 to provide accurate representation.	Professor Devlin, Leon White and DET officers.
Support for development of tests in Yolngu Matha for Year 3 students at Yirrkala	CE DET
Investigation of issues re Yirrkala’s Remote Learning Partnership	CE DET /Minister for Education and Training, Paul Henderson
Initiate regular meetings of this kind	?