In comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure KCB <bcgc...@hootmail.com> wrote:
> "Colin B." <cbi...@somewhereelse.shaw.ca> wrote in message > news:hcck4b$nc5$1@aioe.org... >> The only meaningful improvement to DRM is to turf it. You won't eliminate >> serious piracy with DRM, just dissuade casual copiers from buying your >> products. Companies have to plan for piracy as an inevitability, and build >> that into their financial model.
> So, I wonder how that last one would go... Might we then be paying $250 per > game? Of course, there would be no DRM to worry about.
Well since game companies (a) don't have a coherent or effective DRM strategy yet, but (b) are making a profit selling games at $50-$80, one might conjecture that they've already done it. In fact, if they don't have _accurate_ figures on how much money they lose to piracy, I'd be very surprised.
Look, it's like the credit card industry. Credit card fraud costs roughly a billion dollars a year. The credit card companies know this, but they stay in business because they can factor it into their charges, rates, and business model. This is how you run a business--know and manage your costs. If you own a restaurant, you have to expect that if you're a certain size, some (known) percentage of your staff will steal from you. You do what you can to prevent it (treat your employees well, have them cross- count, etc.) but when it happens, even if you catch the employee, you're not going to get all of your money back. Some customers will walk out without paying. If it costs you $2000 year (random number for illustrative purposes only), do you buy a $50k security system? Do you hire a guard to stand at the front door and make people show their receipts (as they do in Costco)? Do you raise prices because you weren't planning for it, or do you plan for it from the beginning? After five years in business, if you're showing a profit, you've obviously calculated those costs into your budget, whether or not it's a separate line-item.
Ditto with piracy and DRM. Companies need to know how to cope with unstoppable losses (reducible yes, but not they can't be eliminated completely), and they also understand that pissing off legitimate customers is not a financially sustainable way of reducing loss costs.
> When I buy through Steam, I own the game instead of a piece of shit > hunk of plastic. Physical media wears out over time, as many folks > have discovered about their CD music collection from the 80s.
I actually agree with you about how any fears about Steam imploding in future aren't that different from issues resulting from bad physical media, compatibility issues etc.
However, my post was about comparing EA's DRM to other methods.
Steam is lot more restrictive than EA's DRM. First of all, you can't remove a game from an account. If you have to sell a game purchased through Steam or give it to someone, you have to give account information as well. Also while Steam allows you to have games set up on different PCs, you can run the game only from one PC at a time.
EA's DRM allows you to deauthorize a game and they also make it very easy to do it. That takes care of the sale/gift issue. They also allow you to install the game on multiple PCs and have simultaneous single-player sessions. -- Noman
> Steam is lot more restrictive than EA's DRM. First of all, you can't > remove a game from an account. If you have to sell a game purchased > through Steam or give it to someone, you have to give account > information as well. Also while Steam allows you to have games set up > on different PCs, you can run the game only from one PC at a time.
For how I use games EA gets in my way far more than steam (I'm not happy about either). I keep windows around solely for games, so just reinstall it when things start getting odd. Even before that when disc space gets low I just wipe the directory rather than faffing with the slow uninstaller architecture. I really really don't want to care bout jumping through hoops uninstalling things just to keep playing games I've bought.
CJM wrote: > However, good as steam is, you don't have the capability to sell on to > other people, as you should be able to according to the First Sale (or > Exhaustion) Doctrine.
You do if you pay Valve ten dollars to transfer the game to another persons account.
>> When I buy through Steam, I own the game instead of a piece of shit >> hunk of plastic. Physical media wears out over time, as many folks >> have discovered about their CD music collection from the 80s.
> EA's DRM allows you to deauthorize a game and they also make it very > easy to do it.
You are aware that it took **5 CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS** and dozens of 1-star product reviews on Amazon (among other places) for them to offer that 'service', are you not?
And they are *STILL* playing ridiculous games with their customers. (ie charging full price for buggy expansions/parts packs; preventing Sims 3 veterans from buying certain items with their SimPoints on top of their continued use of SecuRom) ~~~}:^(
Personally, I'll take Steam or some Egotistical Assholes' bullshit any day of the millenium.
Signed, Warewolf who remembers when EA *didn't* treat its employees and customers like crap.
>>> When I buy through Steam, I own the game instead of a piece of shit >>> hunk of plastic. Physical media wears out over time, as many folks >>> have discovered about their CD music collection from the 80s.
>>No you don't. You own the right to play a game,
> As opposed to doing what with it?
How about selling it after you're done with it, or lending it to your friends and relatives?
> > EA's DRM allows you to deauthorize a game and they also make it very > > easy to do it.
> You are aware that it took **5 CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS** and dozens of > 1-star product reviews on Amazon (among other places) for them to > offer that 'service', are you not?
And I don't care, since I never bought those games with the limited activations.
As of now, EA's DRM scheme is better than any other alternative I can think of- Steam included.
> Personally, I'll take Steam or some Egotistical Assholes' bullshit > any day of the millenium.
That's your decision, but you are severely restricted in the use of your purchased game from Steam, when compared to a lot more flexible and trouble-free DRM in recent EA releases like Mirror's Edge and Burnout Paradise. -- Noman
>>>> When I buy through Steam, I own the game instead of a piece of shit >>>> hunk of plastic. Physical media wears out over time, as many folks >>>> have discovered about their CD music collection from the 80s.
>>>No you don't. You own the right to play a game,
>> As opposed to doing what with it?
>How about selling it after you're done with it, or lending it to your >friends and relatives?
The few times I sold games, the price I got for them wasn't worth the later regret I felt a couple of years later when I wanted to play it. I have "regular" friends, co-workers/casual acquantenances, and online gaming friends.. of that group, only the online gaming friends would be candidates for lending the game to, and it would be pointless because if they are interested in the game they would buy it on release and be playing it at the same time as me online. The others don't play PC games or have no interest in gaming at all.
> The few times I sold games, the price I got for them wasn't worth the > later regret I felt a couple of years later when I wanted to play it. > I have "regular" friends, co-workers/casual acquantenances, and online > gaming friends.. of that group, only the online gaming friends would > be candidates for lending the game to, and it would be pointless > because if they are interested in the game they would buy it on > release and be playing it at the same time as me online. The others > don't play PC games or have no interest in gaming at all.
I'll never tire of telling this story: I bought Bioshock on pre-order, and completed it in a couple of weeks. I lent it to my nephew and he finished inside a week. A banged it on Ebay and sold it for £20, having paid £22 in the first place. 18 months later, I bought it again on ssteam for £3.50. I've played it twice, once plasmid-only and once-weapons only.
I don't think I'll play it again, so my inclination is to sell it once more, but you obviously can't do that on steam. But having spent a total of £5.50, I think I have had good value for this game.
[Selling is and essential part of my MO - I sell (many) games to fund the purchase of others. Obviously, some I keep indefinitely, and not just the ones on steam. A canny bit of wheeling and dealing means that I get to play any game I want to play without breaking the bank too much.]
>> The few times I sold games, the price I got for them wasn't worth the >> later regret I felt a couple of years later when I wanted to play it. >> I have "regular" friends, co-workers/casual acquantenances, and online >> gaming friends.. of that group, only the online gaming friends would >> be candidates for lending the game to, and it would be pointless >> because if they are interested in the game they would buy it on >> release and be playing it at the same time as me online. The others >> don't play PC games or have no interest in gaming at all.
>I'll never tire of telling this story: I bought Bioshock on pre-order, and >completed it in a couple of weeks. I lent it to my nephew and he finished >inside a week. A banged it on Ebay and sold it for £20, having paid £22 in >the first place. 18 months later, I bought it again on ssteam for £3.50. >I've played it twice, once plasmid-only and once-weapons only.
>I don't think I'll play it again, so my inclination is to sell it once more, >but you obviously can't do that on steam. But having spent a total of £5.50, >I think I have had good value for this game.
>[Selling is and essential part of my MO - I sell (many) games to fund the >purchase of others. Obviously, some I keep indefinitely, and not just the >ones on steam. A canny bit of wheeling and dealing means that I get to play >any game I want to play without breaking the bank too much.]
Well the fact that Bioshock was available for $5 (US) not long after its release is more of an anomaly. And that was one game I never craved to play again so it's the exception for me and not the rule.
I do understand that with a little bit of work and wheeling/dealing as you say, the cost of the gaming hobby can be lowered considerably. But in my case, I find time much harder to come by than money.. as a consultant I make a good wage on an hourly basis, and I'm not saying that to come off smug or like a braggart.. I'm just pointing out that if I spend even 30 minutes trying to save twenty bucks, it is a massive waste of resources for me, because with a little of wheeling and dealing I can make 5 to 10 times that in the same half an hour.
Gaming for me is an escape from the rat race of money, and is an area where convenience and enjoyment win out over savings of small amounts of money.
>> > EA's DRM allows you to deauthorize a game and they also make it very >> > easy to do it.
>> You are aware that it took **5 CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS** and dozens of >> 1-star product reviews on Amazon (among other places) for them to >> offer that 'service', are you not?
> And I don't care, since I never bought those games with the limited > activations.
That doesn't make the horror stories of those who have any less valid.
Broken drives and screwed up operating systems are nothing to laugh about. (Never mind the fact that these ridiculously oppressive DRM schemes *DO NOT LEAVE WITH THE FUCKING GAME!!!!!* Removal tools. BAH!!) ~~~}X^(
> As of now, EA's DRM scheme is better than any other alternative I can > think of- Steam included.
Well, in my eyes, EA and everyone else who used SecuROM (or a similar DRM scheme) has flushed their future(s) down the toilet.
While I can understand the need for a publisher/programming team to make a profit, you don't **EVER** do it on the toes of your customers.
In fact, did any of these DRM pundits ever ask themselves if the games they *claimed* were being pirated (read: weren't selling well) were even playable? *cough*GTA4*cough*
>> Personally, I'll take Steam over some Egotistical Assholes' bullshit >> any day of the millenium.
> That's your decision, but you are severely restricted in the use of > your purchased game from Steam, when compared to a lot more flexible > and trouble-free DRM in recent EA releases like Mirror's Edge and > Burnout Paradise.
Well, here is where we flip the proverbial 'coin'.
When I purchase a game (especially after reading the reviews), I don't sell it. I install it, play it until I lose interest and either leave it on the drive for a while or uninstall it and put the floppies/CDs/DVDs back in the stack.
In fact, with Steam, I can uninstall the main program and reinstall it, along with my games, *AN UNLIMITED NUMBER OF TIMES*, something you *can't* do (along with hardware upgrades) with the current collection of crapware.
(I will admit that some of Valve's compilations could use some work - why can't those extra copies of HL2 and Ep1 be traded for other products?) 9_9
When more and more classic games are being re-released as freeware (or being remade/improved upon by fans), there is no excuse for *ANY* amount of hassle. (especially 'CD checks' *glares at the makers of Total War*)
In fact, these businesses should be *rewarding* their customers with a lot more than an enjoyable, bug-free game.
(And yes, 'Becky', I'm looking at you) }:^(
Signed, Warewolf who can only guess at the number of games that had their DRM patched out.
I know that Diablo II, Warcraft III, Starcraft and FarCry 2 are on that list. *shrug*
> Colin B. wrote: >> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure Warewolf <warewolfmypa...@shaw.ca> >> wrote:
>>> Signed, >>> Warewolf >>> who remembers when EA *didn't* treat its employees and customers >>> like crap.
>> Yep. I remember Pinball Construction Set as well.
> M.U.L.E. > (C=64 version)
the Bard's Tale series Adventure Construction Set Seven Cities of Gold Mail Order Monsters
Classic after classic after classic...
With all these brilliant games under their belts, you *seriously* have to ask yourself, 'What the hell happened?!'
And then you realize...they (d)evolved. 9_9
*shakes his head at the zombified T-Rex* *wandering through the digital streets* *before looking through his 'Pile-O-Treasures'* *for his favorite wave motion gun*
Here's hoping we can all send its spore-infested carcass back the 'inferno'
>> Colin B. wrote: >>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure Warewolf <warewolfmypa...@shaw.ca> >>> wrote:
>>>> Signed, >>>> Warewolf >>>> who remembers when EA *didn't* treat its employees and customers >>>> like crap. >>> Yep. I remember Pinball Construction Set as well. >> M.U.L.E. >> (C=64 version)
> the Bard's Tale series > Adventure Construction Set > Seven Cities of Gold > Mail Order Monsters
> Classic after classic after classic...
> With all these brilliant games under their belts, you *seriously* have to > ask yourself, 'What the hell happened?!'
I was invited and went to one of their focus groups back then. They were very concerned about the customers viewpoints and discussed our impressions and suggestions in detail. Now it's pretty much just take what we give you. Oh joy, Madden XXIX.
Warewolf wrote: > In fact, did any of these DRM pundits ever ask themselves if the games they > *claimed* were being pirated (read: weren't selling well) were even > playable? *cough*GTA4*cough*
So it isn't just me that thinks that it is one of the worst console ports ever? Okay, I do know that "bad" and "console port" are redundant terms.
> >> You are aware that it took **5 CLASS ACTION LAWSUITS** and dozens > of >> 1-star product reviews on Amazon (among other places) for them > to >> offer that 'service', are you not?
> > And I don't care, since I never bought those games with the limited > > activations.
> That doesn't make the horror stories of those who have any less valid.
It's besides the point. If you know people having problems with latest EA games, I'd like to know.
> Broken drives and screwed up operating systems are nothing to laugh > about. (Never mind the fact that these ridiculously oppressive DRM > schemes *DO NOT LEAVE WITH THE FUCKING GAME!!!!!* Removal tools. > BAH!!) ~~~}X^(
If you read my earlier post, you'll see I mention how easy deauthorizing these games are. If you need it, it's a menu option just like "Uninstall" is a menu option.
> > As of now, EA's DRM scheme is better than any other alternative I > > can think of- Steam included.
> Well, in my eyes, EA and everyone else who used SecuROM (or a similar > DRM scheme) has flushed their future(s) down the toilet.
I don't think you understand what SecuROM is.
> In fact, with Steam, I can uninstall the main program and reinstall > it, along with my games, *AN UNLIMITED NUMBER OF TIMES*, something > you can't do (along with hardware upgrades) with the current > collection of crapware.
I am not talking about generics here. The thread title is quite specific and I have also mentioned specific titles. You can install them unlimited number of times too, and there 's no account login/password to manage, no launcher, no online-connection past the first one, no restrictions on how you get the patches, no restrictions on how you sell it or give it away, the ability to run it simultaneously on multiple PCs and no need to keep the disc in drive. Steam can only do one of these features (the offline mode) and even that has its restrictions.
And I am not just comparing it to Steam, but all the other copy protection schemes I have seen in last twenty years. EA's approach in recent games is the most hassle-free I can think of.
Your personal opinons (and horror stories from past) don't change any of the facts I mentioned for how the situation is currently. -- Noman
>> Games, word processors, image editors, spreadsheets, video editing -- >> if it is software you cannot ever buy it, you can only obtain a >> license for use.
> You were traditionally purchasing a perpetual license that allowed you > to use the software with relative freedom. Current DRM often tries to > limit the number of machines which you can install it on, and often > other restrictions besides.
> And publishers are itching to go further still... to move from perpetual > licenses to rental arrangements; £xx per month or year to continue using > the software. Why charge £25 per game if you can get away with £10 -£15 > per month?
I think you're very right. We have the many successful MMO developers out there "showing the way" for all developers/producers :(
I don't want to live in a world where I have to pay rent on every bloody thing I buy relating to my hobby :/
>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.adventure noman <no_m...@zzzyahoo.yycom> >> wrote:
>>> 2) Online activations >> Stop right there.
>> If I have to activate a game, then I haven't bought it--I've licensed >> it, subject to the continuity and whim of the company I licensed it >> from. Not Acceptable.
> I don't like online activations either, but if there has to be one, > then EA's current implementation is not bad. I am free to sell the game > or > give it as a gift to anyone without any problems. Of course EA can > decide to not let me revoke a license, but that has smaller chance of > happening than my DVD physical media going bad.
> It also allows me to have simultaneous play sessions on different PCs, > which is only somewhat doable with disc-based copy protection.
> Of course, DRM implementations like Steam allow none of that.
I despise online activations, I had a wobbly when I forced to use Steam for Dawn of War 2 :p
EA however managed to quite successfully fool me this time... In the retail copy of DA:O there are two "bonus" downloadable thingies, one a cool set of plate armour and the other a new NPC, complete with new quests NPC interactions and areas.
So there I was registering my copy with EA to enter in my codes for these items when I realised that I'd just basically activated my product online *face palm*.
Still, not a bad way to go; if your going to force something like online activations at least throw us a bone, and at least it's not Steam :)
Ceowulf wrote: > I despise online activations, I had a wobbly when I forced to use > Steam for Dawn of War 2 :p
I don't like games bought at retail to be managed by a third-party application either, especially one where you can't detach the game from that account.
> EA however managed to quite successfully fool me this time... In the > retail copy of DA:O there are two "bonus" downloadable thingies, one > a cool set of plate armour and the other a new NPC, complete with new > quests NPC interactions and areas.
> So there I was registering my copy with EA to enter in my codes for > these items when I realised that I'd just basically activated my > product online *face palm*.
> Still, not a bad way to go; if your going to force something like > online activations at least throw us a bone, and at least it's not > Steam :)
The basic model for recent EA releases is that when you install the game from the DVD and enter your game-key, it's activated right there. You don't need an account/password. Subsequent installations on the same PC don't require activations. You can also have up to four extra simultaneous installs on other PCs. This isn't like Steam, where you can install on multiple PC but can play from one PC at a time. So you can buy Mirror's Edge and install it on a friend's PC as well and both of you can play the game without any restrictions. At any time you can revoke an activation by 'de-authorizing' the PC. It's an option present in the right click menu or in the game's start-group folder.
If you had not downloaded the DLC for DragonAge, the game would still have been activated in the background.
As far as downloading DLC is concerned, I hope DragonAge retail-version doesn't require you to create an account. If it does need one, I might just wait and get the GOTY/Gold edition when all the content is included on the retail DVD. -- Noman
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