In the US since 1908, there has been an established First Sale Doctrine which essentially allows purchasers to re-sell copyrighted products. Recently, this legislation has come to the defense of a number individuals who were pursued by software publishers for reselling software.
In one case, Microsoft sued a guy who tried (and failed) to return some un-opened software, and ended up making a small profit on ebay. Microsoft sued for a share of the profits, the guy countersued using FSD in his argument, and ultimately won a settlement from MS.
More recently AutoDesk sued a customer who re-sold his AutoCAD software - with similar results - the FSD protected him. The judgement concluded that the buyer had purchased 'the software' rather than a non-transferable license to use the software.
I've tried to find details of the legal position to the issue in the UK. While I can find commentary from publishers stating that this would be unfair, and pretty much everyone else claiming it is an essential right, I've struggled to find any categorical statement of law.
Anyone got any pointers?
For those that are aware of Steam (a popular digital distribution system for games), I wonder why the FSD doesn't enable US Steam customers from buying/selling Steam-based games? Or should it?
I've just sold a copy of Windows 7 on ebay. While I don't expect any visits from Microsoft UK, was it legal from me to do so?
> In the US since 1908, there has been an established First Sale Doctrine > which essentially allows purchasers to re-sell copyrighted products. > Recently, this legislation has come to the defense of a number individuals > who were pursued by software publishers for reselling software.
> In one case, Microsoft sued a guy who tried (and failed) to return some > un-opened software, and ended up making a small profit on ebay. Microsoft > sued for a share of the profits, the guy countersued using FSD in his > argument, and ultimately won a settlement from MS.
> More recently AutoDesk sued a customer who re-sold his AutoCAD software - > with similar results - the FSD protected him. The judgement concluded that > the buyer had purchased 'the software' rather than a non-transferable > license to use the software.
> I've tried to find details of the legal position to the issue in the UK. > While I can find commentary from publishers stating that this would be > unfair, and pretty much everyone else claiming it is an essential right, > I've struggled to find any categorical statement of law.
> Anyone got any pointers?
> For those that are aware of Steam (a popular digital distribution system > for games), I wonder why the FSD doesn't enable US Steam customers from > buying/selling Steam-based games? Or should it?
> I've just sold a copy of Windows 7 on ebay. While I don't expect any > visits from Microsoft UK, was it legal from me to do so?
Damn - this was supposed to be posted to uk.legal.moderated(!)
> I've tried to find details of the legal position to the issue in the UK. > While I can find commentary from publishers stating that this would be > unfair, and pretty much everyone else claiming it is an essential right, > I've struggled to find any categorical statement of law.
> Anyone got any pointers?
In the UK it is like similar to other EU countries: if you buy a program (i.e. some game) in a shop then the only contract that exists is between you and the seller, and unless you have been explicitly made aware of the EULAs (which means stating the full text and not just making you aware that there is something like an EULA) the EULAs are void. Also, there is no legal relation between you and the software manufacturer, unless this was agreed when the deal was closed.
In most consumer sales situations neither the EULAs nor a relation with the manufacturer becomes part of the sales contract. Which means there is no license but a sales of goods (the goods being the medium with the software on it) which you can use in any way you want, only limited by laws (i.e. the copyright laws).
> For those that are aware of Steam (a popular digital distribution system > for games), I wonder why the FSD doesn't enable US Steam customers from > buying/selling Steam-based games? Or should it?
No, it shouldn't. STEAM is no sales of goods, it is a service that you pay for. The contract is between you and Valve, the terms are fully brought up before the deal is closed and therefore become part of the contract.
> I've just sold a copy of Windows 7 on ebay. While I don't expect any > visits from Microsoft UK, was it legal from me to do so?
<cjmuk2...@gmail.removethis.com> wrote: >Damn - this was supposed to be posted to uk.legal.moderated(!)
That doesn't matter. It's pertinent to games and is a bone of contention with several regular posters in csipga.
It's an interesting topic. I have long thought that the notion that you merely buy a license to use software, rather than owning the actual physical copy of the software, to do with as you please, is somehow unfair.
On the other hand, when it comes to games for the PC, I can see how reselling games could conceivably have a detrimental affect on the industry.
That doesn't mean to say that I support either stance. It is however, an interesting predicament. For me personally anyway. -- Rob
<cjmuk2...@gmail.removethis.com> wrote: >I've just sold a copy of Windows 7 on ebay. While I don't expect any visits >from Microsoft UK, was it legal from me to do so?
As long as it is a legit copy with a licence key that hasn't been used, yes. -- Andrew, contact via http://interpleb.googlepages.com Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards, please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text. Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question.
>> I've tried to find details of the legal position to the issue in the UK. >> While I can find commentary from publishers stating that this would be >> unfair, and pretty much everyone else claiming it is an essential right, >> I've struggled to find any categorical statement of law.
>> Anyone got any pointers?
> In the UK it is like similar to other EU countries: if you buy a program > (i.e. some game) in a shop then the only contract that exists is between > you and the seller, and unless you have been explicitly made aware of the > EULAs (which means stating the full text and not just making you aware > that there is something like an EULA) the EULAs are void. Also, there is > no legal relation between you and the software manufacturer, unless this > was agreed when the deal was closed.
> In most consumer sales situations neither the EULAs nor a relation with > the manufacturer becomes part of the sales contract. Which means there is > no license but a sales of goods (the goods being the medium with the > software on it) which you can use in any way you want, only limited by > laws (i.e. the copyright laws).
>> For those that are aware of Steam (a popular digital distribution system >> for games), I wonder why the FSD doesn't enable US Steam customers from >> buying/selling Steam-based games? Or should it?
> No, it shouldn't. STEAM is no sales of goods, it is a service that you pay > for. The contract is between you and Valve, the terms are fully brought up > before the deal is closed and therefore become part of the contract.
>> I've just sold a copy of Windows 7 on ebay. While I don't expect any >> visits from Microsoft UK, was it legal from me to do so?
> Yes.
> Benjamin
You say that, but I was actively prevented from selling some mapping software (Memory Map) - this even after the makers acknowledged it wouldn't work with my system - which according to their spec it should have.
They did the legal equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears shouting "lalalala" whilst kicking me.
It wasn't cheap, either - £100 bought retail. I tried arguing and gave up as life is too short. Next time, though, I'll just pirate the software instead...
> You say that, but I was actively prevented from selling some mapping > software (Memory Map) - this even after the makers acknowledged it wouldn't > work with my system - which according to their spec it should have.
> They did the legal equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears > shouting "lalalala" whilst kicking me.
That sadly is the general approach, but companies do that because most consumers don't know their rights or just don' want to go through the hazzle to legally challenge these companies. If they wanted to prevent you to re-sell the program which as I understand it you bought not directly I would have asked them to prove that there is actually a contractual relationship and that any "license terms" are in fact legally relevant in this purchase. It is not you to prove anything, it is them.
> It wasn't cheap, either - £100 bought retail. I tried arguing and gave up as > life is too short. Next time, though, I'll just pirate the software > instead...
Usually these companies don't realize that with their irgnorant behavior at the end of the day all they do is to shoo themselves in the foot.
> "Benjamin Gawert" <bgaw...@gmx.de> wrote >> It doesn't matter if it has been used. As long as he doesn't retain a >> copy of the software he can sell it to whomever he wants.
> If it wasn't an OEM copy. They're tied to the hardware.
It doesn't matter if it was tied to the hardware. You can resell it any time as you can do with any other part of the computer you bought it with.
CJM wrote: > For those that are aware of Steam (a popular digital distribution system > for games), I wonder why the FSD doesn't enable US Steam customers from > buying/selling Steam-based games? Or should it?
I expect Steam has no legal leg to stand but they do allow you to transfer your bought games to another but you have to pay them ten dollars per game to do it, which I also doubt would stand up to scrutiny in a court. Another thing about Steam is that they ban some peoples accounts and those people lose all the games that they paid for. I highly doubt Steam has the legal right to deny them access to the games they paid for and *own*.
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