--------------------------------------------- Tkinter and IDLE Shortfalls --------------------------------------------- *The following is an assessment of Tkinter as i have experienced it. Even with all the problems i list below i strongly believe Tkinter is a great starter GUI toolkit and we (the Python Community), must keep and maintain this module for the foreseeable future.
*However, as my assessment will reveal, much needs to be done to "freshen" up Tkinter and IDLE, and I am not just asking for someone to fix these problems. I have already coded solutions for most of them however, some of course still need work, and i would like to hear from others on this subject too. So buckle your seat belts folks, cause here we go...
--------------------------------------------- Python offical docs and Tkinter --------------------------------------------- *The Python docs barely cover anything related to actual Tkinter coding. At the minimum the Tkinter doc page should have a subpage for all the widgets available --which is very small(approx 15) and each subpage should list the available methods on that wiget. Here are two great resources that really like from Fredrik Lundh and John Shipman...
...I must say that I prefer the latter written by John Shipman because of the way he lists each widgets options in a nice table structure, and then lists the methods below. And intersestingly enough, his manual only weighs in at about 800kb completely uncommpressed and unedited. I'll bet you a wooden nickel i can reduce it to around 500kb for the official Python docs *wink*
*Sadly however neither of these great works is mentioned or linked in the official docs Why?.
*I think a short-and-to-the-point reference, like the afore mentioned along with a few links to full featured tuts would be a great addition to the Tkinter section of the official docs and i would be happy to help make this happen.
--------------------------------------------- from Tkinter import * --------------------------------------------- *Too many noobs start out with the "from Tkinter import *" idiom, unknowing that they are horribly polluting their namespace. I feel that all (tkinter) code should follow the "import Tkinter as tk" policy and never use "from Tkinter import *". To push this agenda i propose all docs be modified so that no one should see such global import blasphemy again. We should at least keep all example code in the latter non-polluting form and frown heavily upon global imports in Tkinter code or any code for that matter.
--------------------------------------------- Tkinter Constants --------------------------------------------- *The Tkconstants module needs to be removed *yesterday* because i think it reinforces sloppy coding styles. The main problem is with subtle bugs that are created when someone rebinds one or more of the constants, for example "W=20". At first i thought the constants were great but I quickly found out the shortfalls of such a Utopian approach . Since Tkinter allows strings to be passed-into widget constructors, we should remove the TkConstants immediately and force everyone to use strings instead...
#-- instead of this --# w.pack(side=LEFT,fill=BOTH,anchor=W)
#-- do this --# w.pack(side='left',fill='both',anchor='w')
The few extra keystrokes are well worth the effort!
--------------------------------------------- IDLE Shell --------------------------------------------- *IDLE and Pyshell are great but have major flaws in design. One of my biggest complaints is the shell's eight space indention which completely bloats your screen! Another annoying fact is that the prompt (>>>) is actually inside the text widget. This design is all wrong! The prompt should be in another widget to the left of the text so it never gets copied or pasted. Or at-least have the copy/paste action remove the initial four spaces and the prompt, but i think a full separation of "prompt" and "text" are the best solution. The following ASCII art won't win me any awards, but it may covey my idea. "W1" holds the prompt and "W2" is the actual text editor.
<W1> <-------- W2 -----------> >>> | for x in range(10): | ... | print x | ... | for y in range(x): | ... | print y | |1 |2
And don't tell me about Geany or Pythonwin or emacs or vim or whatever editor happens to float your boat. I know there are tons of great editors out there but IDLE is most likely the first one a Pynoob will use so it must be usable! IDLE and Tkinter are what make Python a stater language -- after the beautiful syntax of course :)
--------------------------------------------- IDLE Editor --------------------------------------------- *On M$ windows pressing the MMB without a motion causes the selected text to be pasted at the insertion cursor, and holding it repeats the action very quickly! Since IDLE has no horizontal scroll bar you must use MMB to scroll left-right. I am quite happy that there is no horizontal scrollbar since using MMB is much quicker, but the text pasting action always ruins my day :(. This pasting action is a real PITA and a waste of good processor time. I know how to override it with a hack in IDLE, but many newcomers won't and will probably get frustrated by it so this must be either fixed by hard coding IDLE or allowing a user to turn is off in the config options dialog.
*Something that always gets a Python IDLE noob is "open-bracket-syntax- errors" in IDLE. When Python throws this type of error normally the only clue you will get from IDLE is to see the last line highlighted. However, the missing or misplaced bracket is usually no where near the end of the script. IDLE can be easily fixed to show a much closer or even exact location of the last open bracket.
*The Find dialog forgets the regexp string after finding a match, this can be a real time waster especially if you typed in a long expression and need to tweak it just a bit for a second search! if the "regexp" check box is selected the dialog should not replace the contents of the Dialog.entry with the texts' selection. (easy fix)
*The replace dialog seems buggy when doing a "replace+find". Sometimes it will highlight the next match but sometimes the highlight will immediately disappear so you can't be for sure what you may be replacing with the next push of the button? (could be a conflict with the colorizer) Real aggravating! This seems to always happen when a string is selected.
*One of my all time pet peeves with all text editors. Everybody repeat after me...
"""NO TEXT EDITOR SHOULD EVER COPY AN EMPTY STRING TO THE CLIPBOARD!!"""
...I can't tell you how many times I've had to re-copy some text because i accidentally pressed <Control-C> instead of <Control-V>, arggh! This bug needs to be fixed yesterday! Pressing <Control-C> with no active selection should sound the error bell, not copy "".
*Using the goto-line command should highlight the requested line. Currently all that IDLE does is place the insertion cursor at the start of the requested line which is completely useless. One more line of code in the goto method would make this action more useful
--------------------------------------------- Tkinter Canvas --------------------------------------------- *The Tkinter Canvas widget should return (X,Y) pairs when calling canvas.coords(obj). The current implementation returns a flat array that is pretty much useless outside of canvas calls. Of course one could zip the coords into pairs, but it seems clumsy to call zip() on 2 LC's when Tkinter could, and should, do it for you.
*Canvas needs a canvas.rotate() method for polygons, lines -- (easy).
--------------------------------------------- Tkinter ComboBox -- where's Waldo? --------------------------------------------- *As much as i hate to support anything related to M$, Tkinter needs an M$ stlye combobox. Yes, I know Tix has combobox (*puke*), however using it is like pulling teeth. I have coded up an far more elegant/ simple solution -- and yes, i know about the OptionMenu widget which serves a useful purpose but is NOT a good replacement for a REAL M$ style combobox ;).
*For instance, ComboBoxes need values that the user can select from, this is as universal as humans and oxygen. But sometimes you want to give the user a detailed set of values in the dropdown listbox and then insert an abbrieation of the value once selected, such as the case with state names...
New Mexico -> MN California -> CA Florida -> FL
...instead of the laborious and wasteful convention of overriding a method to insert this value from a mapping each time why not just pass a pointer to the mapping into the constructor and create a combobox that actually knows how to walk and chew gum!
[Warning: puesdo code ahead!]
class ComboBox(master, values, etc..) def __init__(blahblahblah) self.values = values if type(values) == dict: self.values = values.keys()) listbox.load(self.values)
def onUserPick(self, arg): if type(self.values) == dict: self.entry.set(self.values[arg]) return self.entry.set(arg)
--------------------------------------------- Tix In General --------------------------------------------- *I am not a big fan of the Tix Module. The idea behind the widgets is great, but using most of them is a nightmare on elm street with Jason Voorhees in hot pursuit. I have hacked my own far more elegant versions of the more useful Tix Widgets and i feel mine are less buggy and more user friendly. So i say lose Tix and go with my fix, or get stuck with the Tix!
*Python is missing good docs for Tix. The only thing i can find is the Tcl docs which are riddled with horribly cryptic tcl code.
--------------------------------------------- Tix NoteBook --------------------------------------------- *The Tix.NoteBook widget has
> --------------------------------------------- > Python offical docs and Tkinter > --------------------------------------------- > *The Python docs barely cover anything related to actual Tkinter > coding. At the minimum the Tkinter doc page should have a subpage for > all the widgets available --which is very small(approx 15) and each > subpage should list the available methods on that wiget.
I think the general idea behind the 'lack' of documentation is that it would only double tcl/tk's own documentation. I've always used Tkinter using the tcl/tk docs here: http://www.tcl.tk/man/tcl8.5/TkCmd/contents.htm and once you get used to how you transform tcl syntax to Python syntax, it works pretty well. Maintaining a documentation for Tkinter in the official Python docs would force people to run after tcl. I understand why they don't want to do that, even if I'd love to see a better Tkinter documentation too.
> --------------------------------------------- > from Tkinter import * > --------------------------------------------- > *Too many noobs start out with the "from Tkinter import *" idiom, > unknowing that they are horribly polluting their namespace. I feel > that all (tkinter) code should follow the "import Tkinter as tk" > policy and never use "from Tkinter import *". To push this agenda i > propose all docs be modified so that no one should see such global > import blasphemy again. We should at least keep all example code in > the latter non-polluting form and frown heavily upon global imports in > Tkinter code or any code for that matter.
Well, I just don't agree with you on this one. AFAIK, Tkinter has been made to make the 'from Tkinter import *' idiom work without too much namespace pollution. I've always used it, still use it today, and never seen any problem with it.
I do agree that this might lead newbies to think it's ok for all modules, and end up doing 'from os import *' and wonder why opening a file with 'open' no more works. But this is the only problem I can see.
> --------------------------------------------- > Tkinter Constants > --------------------------------------------- > *The Tkconstants module needs to be removed *yesterday* because i > think it reinforces sloppy coding styles. The main problem is with > subtle bugs that are created when someone rebinds one or more of the > constants, for example "W=20". At first i thought the constants were > great but I quickly found out the shortfalls of such a Utopian > approach . Since Tkinter allows strings to be passed-into widget > constructors, we should remove the TkConstants immediately and force > everyone to use strings instead...
> #-- instead of this --# > w.pack(side=LEFT,fill=BOTH,anchor=W)
> #-- do this --# > w.pack(side='left',fill='both',anchor='w')
> The few extra keystrokes are well worth the effort!
Well, again, I don't agree. I prefer having well defined constants than having to type strings. If the values for the fill option could be anything, well, OK. But they can't: they have to be either 'x' or 'y' or 'both'. So I prefer to have them defined in constants.
[snip comments on IDLE, which I don't use]
> --------------------------------------------- > Tkinter Canvas > --------------------------------------------- > *The Tkinter Canvas widget should return (X,Y) pairs when calling > canvas.coords(obj). The current implementation returns a flat array > that is pretty much useless outside of canvas calls. Of course one > could zip the coords into pairs, but it seems clumsy to call zip() on > 2 LC's when Tkinter could, and should, do it for you.
We agree on this one, but it's a minor flaw.
> *Canvas needs a canvas.rotate() method for polygons, lines -- (easy).
All Canvas methods are actually forwarded to the underlying tcl interpreter. So you might want to suggest that to the tcl guys.
> --------------------------------------------- > Tkinter ComboBox -- where's Waldo? > --------------------------------------------- > *As much as i hate to support anything related to M$, Tkinter needs an > M$ stlye combobox. Yes, I know Tix has combobox (*puke*), however > using it is like pulling teeth. I have coded up an far more elegant/ > simple solution -- and yes, i know about the OptionMenu widget which > serves a useful purpose but is NOT a good replacement for a REAL M$ > style combobox ;).
You don't seem to be aware of the new widgets in tk, which do include a combo-box (and a lot of others BTW). See the ttk:: commands in the tcl/tk documentation (link above). These widgets already have a Python wrapper (see http://pypi.python.org/pypi/pyttk/0.3).
> *For instance, ComboBoxes need values that the user can select from, > this is as universal as humans and oxygen. But sometimes you want to > give the user a detailed set of values in the dropdown listbox and > then insert an abbrieation of the value once selected, such as the > case with state names...
> New Mexico -> MN > California -> CA > Florida -> FL
> ...instead of the laborious and wasteful convention of overriding a > method to insert this value from a mapping each time why not just pass > a pointer to the mapping into the constructor and create a combobox > that actually knows how to walk and chew gum!
Again, you might want to forward that to the tcl guys. And I do agree it would be nice.
[snip code]
[snip Tix comments...]
Tix is more or less dead, since nearly all the widgets it provided have now way better alternatives which have been included in the tcl/ tk core in the ttk package, including comboboxes and notebooks. You might want to have a look at these.
I have looked over the new ttk widgets and everything looks nice. I am very glad to see the death of Tix as i never much liked it anyhow and always believed these widgets should have been in the main Tkinter module to start with. The tree widget has been needed for some time.
However, i am not sure about the new "style" separation. Previously a simple command like root.option_add('*Label.Font'...) accomplished the same thing with less typing, but there may be a future method to this current madness that i am unaware of...???
With regard to Tkinter documentation, and in particular the newer, more modern aspects thereof (e.g. ttk, styles, etc.) please have a look at the tutorial at http://www.tkdocs.com
Would it be useful to link to this from the main Python Tkinter documentation?
On Aug 28, 11:12 am, Mark Roseman <m...@markroseman.com> wrote:
> Would it be useful to link to this from the main Python Tkinter > documentation?
> Mark
Thanks Mark, but i would hate to see more links to TCL code in the python docs. Whats the use of Tkinter if the docs are in TCL. Just learn TCL and skip the Python middleman. But i don;t want to code in TCL (*puke*) i much prefer Python even if i am calling wrapped TCL. Not to mention this link is not a complete coverage of all the widgets anyway.
We desperately need a complete reference for tkinter written with only Python code that covers all widgets, all widget options, and all widget methods. And this would be a minimal effort if someone would just do it. Most of the information is already out there in various locations around the net. We just need to compile, compress, and edit it into one short and to the point reference material.
I will happily volunteer to create on my own or contribute to the docs if i can get a guarantee from the tkinter maintainer that my work would not be in vain.
r wrote: > On Aug 28, 11:12 am, Mark Roseman <m...@markroseman.com> wrote: >> Would it be useful to link to this from the main Python Tkinter >> documentation?
>> Mark
> Thanks Mark, but i would hate to see more links to TCL code in the > python docs. Whats the use of Tkinter if the docs are in TCL. Just > learn TCL and skip the Python middleman. But i don;t want to code in > TCL (*puke*) i much prefer Python even if i am calling wrapped TCL. > Not to mention this link is not a complete coverage of all the widgets > anyway.
> We desperately need a complete reference for tkinter written with only > Python code that covers all widgets, all widget options, and all > widget methods. And this would be a minimal effort if someone would > just do it. Most of the information is already out there in various > locations around the net. We just need to compile, compress, and edit > it into one short and to the point reference material.
> I will happily volunteer to create on my own or contribute to the docs > if i can get a guarantee from the tkinter maintainer that my work > would not be in vain.
Please go ahead and try it. Having read the "Summary of Python tracker Issues" on the python-dev mailing list, and followed from there to the bug tracker, it seems that all input is greatly appreciated. For the small issues the reply is often "Thanks, done". Some things get rejected, and usually rightly so from what I can see. Others the issue is closed with the half way house committed/rejected. Work that out for yourself if you can.:)
Too bad that the 'ttk' widgets are not mainstream yet.
Greetings,
-- "The ability of the OSS process to collect and harness the collective IQ of thousands of individuals across the Internet is simply amazing." - Vinod Valloppillil http://www.catb.org/~esr/halloween/halloween4.html
r <rt8...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Aug 28, 11:12 am, Mark Roseman <m...@markroseman.com> wrote: > > Would it be useful to link to this from the main Python Tkinter > > documentation?
> Thanks Mark, but i would hate to see more links to TCL code in the > python docs. Whats the use of Tkinter if the docs are in TCL.
The www.tkdocs.com site is 'language neutral' - currently the tutorial covers Tcl, Perl, Ruby and yes Python, and allows you to switch between any of those languages (or show all of them).
On Aug 28, 5:48 pm, Mark Roseman <m...@markroseman.com> wrote: (snip)
> Thewww.tkdocs.comsite is 'language neutral' - currently the tutorial > covers Tcl, Perl, Ruby and yes Python, and allows you to switch between > any of those languages (or show all of them).
True, however the coverage is incomplete. I would back this site if we can get a complete coverage of all widgets in the Python language.
> I have looked over the new ttk widgets and everything looks nice. I am > very glad to see the death of Tix as i never much liked it anyhow and > always believed these widgets should have been in the main Tkinter > module to start with. The tree widget has been needed for some time.
> However, i am not sure about the new "style" separation. Previously a > simple command like root.option_add('*Label.Font'...) accomplished the > same thing with less typing, but there may be a future method to this > current madness that i am unaware of...???
The new widgets have been made mainly to make tk look better by making it possible to use native widgets. The drawback is that it limits a lot the possibilities of configuration you can have: on many platforms, the looks of the widgets are decided by the user via a system preference, not by the application programmer. This is why ttk widgets are not configurable directly, because 'native' styles usually don't allow it at application level anyway.
Keep in mind that the new ttk widgets are not replacements for former widgets, but an addition to them. 'Old' widgets are still here, and there is no plan I know of to remove them. If you want to do an application with a very specific look, you can still use these.
> On Aug 28, 5:48 pm, Mark Roseman<m...@markroseman.com> wrote: > (snip) >> Thewww.tkdocs.comsite is 'language neutral' - currently the tutorial >> covers Tcl, Perl, Ruby and yes Python, and allows you to switch between >> any of those languages (or show all of them).
> True, however the coverage is incomplete. I would back this site if we > can get a complete coverage of all widgets in the Python language.
> +0.1
Are you certain the site is incomplete? Its coverage of the basic Tk and Ttk widgets is spectacular. . Its coverage of layout techinques and best practices for organizing complex interfaces with Tk is also extremely valuable. I wish this site had been around when I was learning Tk five years ago. I've looked at just about every Tk and Tkinter tutorial site out there, and this one surpasses them all. Mark Roseman--a professional, independent software developer whose commercial products almost all incorporate Tk into their GUI's--has spent a couple of years putting together this site with input from various users and developers (myself included). It's now an absolutely indispensible resource for beginners and more experienced developers.
The reason the site does not cover 'all widgets in the Python language' is threefold:
1. It's a site about Tk, a tookit that has Python bindings and bindings to other languages also (Ruby, Perl, Tcl, etc.). 2. It omits additional Python-specific, Tkinter-based widget sets such as PMW, Tix, etc. because once you understand the basics of Tk, then grokking these other megawidget sets (which all build on top of Tk) should be pretty straightforward. 3. Finally, 'all widgets in the Python language' gets into other tookits as well, which is obviously unfeasible for a website.
If the site by itself isn't enough for you, or is a bit too basic in its coverage of Python techniques, then there are other options. Couple the TkDocs site with effbot's more advanced walk through the various Tkinter classes, and perhaps one or two of the other Tkinter-specific tutorials, and you'll have learned a lot. But I think the TkDocs site is essential, especially in its more advanced discussion of how to put together an attractive, polished user interface with Tk. Tk has a long-standing reputation of being the toolkit of choice for quick, simple, ugly interfaces, and the other resources I've mentioned do nothing to to change this. The practices that Mark Roseman discusses will allow one to eventually put together a UI that matches anything that the other big toolkits (wxPython, PyQt, PyObjC, PyGtk, etc.) can do.
> and you'll have learned a lot. But I think the TkDocs site is essential, > especially in its more advanced discussion of how to put together an > attractive, polished user interface with Tk. Tk has a long-standing > reputation of being the toolkit of choice for quick, simple, ugly > interfaces, and the other resources I've mentioned do nothing to to > change this. The practices that Mark Roseman discusses will allow one to > eventually put together a UI that matches anything that the other big > toolkits (wxPython, PyQt, PyObjC, PyGtk, etc.) can do.
> Hope this helps,
It persuaded me to go and start reading. A couple of things of interest.
"It would be a great help if you could have a look around, provide any comments, corrections or suggestions, or even help fill in some of the missing pieces. "
so no pretense of completeness yet.
"In the near future, the plan is to continue refining the tutorial, mainly finishing up the rest of the Perl and Python examples."
And from the linked blog
"July 09, 2009 Python material in progress.
While not yet complete, I've managed to add a very hefty chunk of Python material to the tutorial. I should be able to complete the rest over the next week or so. Would definitely appreciate feedback from any Pythonistas on the existing material.
While I hadn't used it before, I think Tkinter may very well be the nicest interface to Tk next to Tcl's (for which Tk was originally designed of course, so you'd expect a bit of an advantage). For people unfamiliar with either language, I think Python's more conventional use of parentheses for functions, the "option=value" syntax, plus other language features it takes advantage of are very attractive and win out over Tcl. The two main parts that I think Tcl does in a nicer way are event bindings and the fact you can create and geometry manage a widget in one statement, while still keeping a handle to a widget around.
UPDATE July 17/2009: Most of the rest of the Python examples and code snippets have been added. "
Kevin. I respectfully disagree that the site is ready for prime time *However* i do not wish to undermine the great work that Mark Roseman has done here and i thank him for his contribution. He has put much work into covering all the major languages and i think this site *could* turn out to be the best one-stop-shop for Tk coding no matter what language you come use. And Actually of all the sites that i know of, his is by far the most professional/modern looking of all!
My only beef with Mark's site is lack of detailed information OR a reference manual of sorts in the Python language. We have too many places around the net one must go to get this information when starting the road to Tkinter.
The Effbot site is great with much detail but is not a good reference. John's NMT site is a great reference but lacks the extensive tutorial style details of effbot. Mark's site is the shiny new corvette, however the engine is on back order?
We need to compile this info into one beautiful orgy of Tkinter learning material. Here are the three sites that i mentioned above, they would compress well into one...
[TERRY SAID..] While I hadn't used it before, I think Tkinter may very well be the nicest interface to Tk next to Tcl's (for which Tk was originally designed of course, so you'd expect a bit of an advantage). For people unfamiliar with either language, I think Python's more conventional use of parentheses for functions, the "option=value" syntax, plus other language features it takes advantage of are very attractive and win out over Tcl. [/TERRY]
Well put Terry! I could not agree more with this assessment! Pythons wrapping of Tk is so beautiful next to the other languages i can bet a lot of Ruby, Tcl, and Perl guys are going to feel like ugly ducklings at a Ms america pageant! (but i may be partial to Python code... just a little) ;-)
When it comes to using Tkinter I think a lot of people let ego get in the way. Yes the name may sound synonymous with "Tinker Toys" however, TEE-KAY-ENTER is a great (albeit simple) GUI toolkit. I use it quite often and reach for the power of wx only when i need the extra functionality -- which the gap is starting to close. Anyhow, welcome to Tkinter Terry, i only wished you would had dropped by sooner...??? :)
psst: maybe you can use your influence and convince others that Tk is not so bad?
On Aug 28, 11:12 am, Mark Roseman <m...@markroseman.com> wrote:
> Would it be useful to link to this from the main Python Tkinter > documentation?
> Mark
Sorry Mark, i did not realize when i replied to you that YOU are the Mark of tkdoc.com. For some reason i only saw Tcl code when i visted the site, and that prompted my slightly grumpy rant. After looking a second time (and actually reading more) i see this site has much promise. I hope my post did not seem condescending of your efforts. I think your site is beautiful and just wish we could add MORE Python specific info to it like i covered in my last post. And also I would like to see a complete coverage of all the widgets.
We more experienced guys already know how and where to find the thousand or so sites for this or that Python info, but the new users are going to be lost in the wilderness. I love that Python has so much info out there, i just hate that is so spread out! We must do something about this in a way that all doc/tut creators can be happy.
+------------------------------+ Things i forgot... IDLE Editor +------------------------------+ 1. class and path browsers should be available in a tabbed widget located in the left side of the Editor window. Should also have a show/ hide button or have them contained in a paned window for user reszing.
+--------------------------+ Things i forgot... Tkinter +--------------------------+ 1. Class naming makes no sense...? Text should be TextBox Radiobutton should be RadioButton Checkbutton should be CheckButton ListBox should be ListBox (but at least Text should be Textbox!)
2. All text related widgets (Text, Listbox, Entry, Label, CheckButton, RadioButton, should have a w.sets(setstr) and w.gets(getstr) methods along with their .insert() method. The settr/getter methods should take any argument in the form of [str, lst, tuple] and insert the lines automatically. Why you ask. Well because i hate calling...
>>> w.delete(start, stop) >>> w.insert(END, str) #-- or even worse >>> for x in collection: w.insert(END, x) #-- this should be the correct ways >>> w.sets([1,2,3]) >>> w.sets((1,2,3)) >>> w.sets(line1\nline2\nline3\n) #splits lines for listbox
> --------------------------------------------- > from Tkinter import * > --------------------------------------------- > *Too many noobs start out with the "from Tkinter import *" idiom, > unknowing that they are horribly polluting their namespace. I feel > that all (tkinter) code should follow the "import Tkinter as tk" > policy and never use "from Tkinter import *". To push this agenda i > propose all docs be modified so that no one should see such global > import blasphemy again. We should at least keep all example code in > the latter non-polluting form and frown heavily upon global imports in > Tkinter code or any code for that matter.
'import Tkinter as tk', that I like -- my fingers are lazier then the mind ;).
When I see the from whatever import *; I generally regard it in one of two Things: Good Thing or Bad Thing.
Good Thing: sometimes program-locale modules are better used with import *, unless you really should be writing BazInternals.quxmire everywhere.
Bad Thing: ahh crap, now I need to know what *is* being slammed into this namespace.
The programmer should be competent to judge which is appropriate, if not then they should be *educated* rather then have a hand held, and told a lullaby. Pass the whisky.
However, I admit that I wish more official documentation dispensed with the brevity of writing bar() over foo.bar(), it would save me from having to pay attention to what they are saying in the first place ;)
> <W1> <-------- W2 -----------> > >>> | for x in range(10): | > ... | print x | > ... | for y in range(x): | > ... | print y | > |1 > |2
I agree, there should be some reason to use IDLE instead of your systems command prompt ;).
On my Pentium D machine, under Windows NT 5.1 (XP), just *moving* the IDLE shell window around causes taskmgr to report double the CPU usage, not to mention the choppy feeling it produces. I assume that is a Tkinter problem. I doubt splitting it the way you describe would make it any slower.
> *Something that always gets a Python IDLE noob is "open-bracket-syntax- > errors" in IDLE. When Python throws this type of error normally the > only clue you will get from IDLE is to see the last line highlighted. > However, the missing or misplaced bracket is usually no where near the > end of the script. IDLE can be easily fixed to show a much closer or > even exact location of the last open bracket.
Considering how often people fuddle up matching marks [], (), {}, '', "", etc --- why not make Python 'throw' something more helpful instead? :-P.
For the amount of time that I have used Perl over the years, I learned two things very important from it. 0.) All language implementations tend to _s_u_c_k_ at reporting syntax errors; and 1.) if the syntax error being reported sounds utterly insane, you probably forgot something; somewhere.
> *One of my all time pet peeves with all text editors. Everybody repeat > after me...
> """NO TEXT EDITOR SHOULD EVER COPY AN EMPTY STRING TO THE > CLIPBOARD!!"""
> ...I can't tell you how many times I've had to re-copy some text > because i accidentally pressed <Control-C> instead of <Control-V>, > arggh! This bug needs to be fixed yesterday! Pressing <Control-C> with > no active selection should sound the error bell, not copy "".
No, that is probably wrong.
People should use (and create) better software, not create software that side steps even worse software. "Be liberal in what you accept, and conservative in what you generate" -- good idea, unless your job is (almost) strictly GIGO. The clipboard is a garbage buffer, not a water filter.
The first GUI widget toolkit [sic] that I ever learned, was Qt. It took me three nights of after work play time to do it: one each to (re)learn Python, learn Qt/GUI stuff, and practice them both. I did that using the C++ documentation for Qt and the Python documentation index for Python. That was with NO experience what so ever in developing software around graphical user interfaces, unless you count a love for the `cat f1 f2 f3 | sort | uniq | mail -s "subject" u...@cli.users.org` school of software design.
Tk is probably an excellent toolkit for people to use at first (I've never used it) but good documentation and an API that's light on brain damage is the *best* thing to follow up with, next to mind reading ;).
On Oct 12, 12:43 am, TerryP <bigboss1...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Aug 27, 9:22 pm, r <rt8...@gmail.com> wrote: > > *Too many noobs start out with the "from Tkinter import *" idiom,
> 'import Tkinter as tk', that I like -- my fingers are lazier then the > mind ;).
> When I see the from whatever import *; I generally regard it in one of > two Things: Good Thing or Bad Thing.
Obviously you have never used packages that are meant for global importing or you would know how such systems are designed. OpenGL is a good example. OpenGL has over 3600 functions and constants all of which start with "gl" and GL respectivly. However the Tkinter package is not a good candidate for this in real use cases. Not only do you have all the widget classes and functions you have the constants imported too. ~180 names are imported this way, far too many when not protected by a naming convention! However learning to use Tkinter for the beginner is much eaiser when using global imports and i think that is OK. But very shortly after it is a good idea to get in the habit of quialifing names with tk.thisorthat().
> I agree, there should be some reason to use IDLE instead of your > systems command prompt ;).
> On my Pentium D machine, under Windows NT 5.1 (XP), just *moving* the > IDLE shell window around causes taskmgr to report double the CPU > usage, not to mention the choppy feeling it produces. I assume that is > a Tkinter problem. I doubt splitting it the way you describe would > make it any slower.
Sarcasm anyone? Yes IDLE is not meant for writing million line scripts but who would want to anyway? And I doubt leaving it in such a terrible condition will help anyone either. You may find the IDLE and Tkinter useless but many people find both to be indispensable (especially noobs). I think this is a case of champagne taste's on a whiskey budget for you friend!
> > """NO TEXT EDITOR SHOULD EVER COPY AN EMPTY STRING TO THE > > CLIPBOARD!!"""
> No, that is probably wrong.
No it's exactly right and a one-liner to fix. And btw: pass the reefer because it ain't just whiskey clouding your mind fella! Why do you reply to a thread about a subject you obviously don't care about? If you've never used Tkinter or IDLE (and never will) you have no reason to reply except for the trolling aspect?
> Obviously you have never used packages that are meant for global > importing or you would know how such systems are designed. OpenGL is > a good example. OpenGL has over 3600 functions and constants all of > which start with "gl" and GL respectivly. However the Tkinter package > is not a good candidate for this in real use cases. Not only do you > have all the widget classes and functions you have the constants > imported too. ~180 names are imported this way, far too many when not > protected by a naming convention! However learning to use Tkinter for > the beginner is much eaiser when using global imports and i think that > is OK. But very shortly after it is a good idea to get in the habit of > quialifing names with tk.thisorthat().
I suppose you are right about that one, the largest things I've ever had to imported tops out around ~600 names; although only used in interactive mode, not finished product.
One thing you should also learn about me, is I do not deal in absolutes. If you don't understand the meanings associated with that, then try importing yourbrain.reflection into a private namespace.
> Yes IDLE is not meant for writing million line scripts > but who would want to anyway?
I would assume that is obvious 8=), however any editing interface may be used for writing million line anythings -- just look at ed <http:// en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ed_(text_editor)>.
> You may find the IDLE and > Tkinter useless but many people find both to be indispensable > (especially noobs). I think this is a case of champagne taste's on a > whiskey budget for you friend!
You are both right and wrong: I find IDLE useless because I edit code written in more then one (programming) language, thus any editor that is not (more) language agnostic is useless to me, and probably every other programmer that refuses to waste time learning an IDE per language (and so on).
Tkinter however is not, because it is an interface to Tk ;). Ok, if you have a broken display , then it is probably useless, guess you are right on that one too.
I said I had never used Tk, not that it was useless. Depending on your style of parsing English, one could also call me a liar (or a louse), as I have used programs built on Tk but have never written programs with Tk. I'll leave individual readers to determine that result.
> > > """NO TEXT EDITOR SHOULD EVER COPY AN EMPTY STRING TO THE > > > CLIPBOARD!!"""
> > No, that is probably wrong.
> No it's exactly right and a one-liner to fix. And btw: pass the > reefer because it ain't just whiskey clouding your mind fella!
Adding data to the clipboard belongs in the program, the decision of *what* to place in the clipboard (generally) belongs with the user and not to their program. Mistakenly overwriting the contents of a buffer that you meant to retain for a longer period of time, is not the buffers problem. Get it?
As I do not believe in absolutes, I therefore believe that there are times where my statement is False, in this case however I believe it is True. If you do not agree, then we have a _philosophical_ difference of opinion, and should agree to disagree.
Also the whiskey thing was an obscured reference to a song, not a reference to my blood alcohol level. Which is probably much lower then whoever created Tkinter from the looks of both the package and your comments.
> Why do > you reply to a thread about a subject you obviously don't care about?
Where I come from, one would say that you asked for feedback:
On Aug 27, 9:22 pm, r <rt8...@gmail.com> wrote: > --------------------------------------------- > Final Thoughts > --------------------------------------------- > Well, that is all i can remember for now. If you've made it this far > without losing your temper or your lunch well i am very surprised ;). > Anyway, give me some feedback on these ideas so maybe i can get > motivated to submit some patches/enhancements. > > psst... help is welcome too ya'know :)
–noun 1. Electronics. a. the process of returning part of the output of a circuit, system, or device to the input, either to oppose the input (negative feedback) or to aid the input (positive feedback). .... 5. Psychology. knowledge of the results of any behavior, considered as influencing or modifying further performance. Compare biofeedback.
Now if you only wanted "Yes sir, that is a jolly good idea" types of response, you should be more explicit about not wanting differing opinions included.
> If you've never used Tkinter or IDLE (and never will) you have no > reason to reply except for the trolling aspect?
> good day!
See the above.
Also note this: I never said I would _n_e_v_e_r_ use Tkinter.
Evaluating Tk interfaces under several languages, has been on my todo list for a very long time. There are however other libraries with a more pressing need to be evaluated before they are cycled into projects.
"To me vi is Zen. To use vi is to practice zen. Every command is a koan. Profound to the user, unintelligible to the uninitiated. You discover truth everytime you use it." --re...@lion.austin.ibm.com
The Canvas widget should return objects and not simple tags/ids for canvas items *OR* at least allow for me to add attributes to the canvasitems "obj". I find that the id/tag system --while quite simple and strait forward-- can really leave you with both hands tied behind you back whilst suffering a wicked itch on the tip of your nose that is just not reachable! (god i hate that!)
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