> It's been over 9 months now since I told 2 people about AVPD. I have > to > come to grips now with the reality that they are not going to help me. > I didn't get the kind of empathetic reaction I hoped for at the > outset and even when I try to point out how they respond to me in a > way that makes me feel rejected, they don't seem to get it. Both of > them want to just have casual conversations from time-to-time and are > willing to ignore me for days when I withdraw, despite now knowing > something about what that means. They don't dislike me; they just > aren't going to help me. I wasn't interested in help from anyone > else, so this is very discouraging.
My opinion be that you can only help yourself. If you have someone already close to you, they can support you, but even then you can only help yourself.
If someone told you they had anger management problems would you be able to help them? I somewhat doubt it, only they can help themselves. What would you do? You could possibly support them and encourage them, but thats about the most you can do, and even thats asking alot.
> On Mar 22, 12:21 am, "John Sheppard" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote: >> "Skog" <thes...@juno.com> wrote in message
>> My opinion be that you can only help yourself. If you have someone >> already >> close to you, they can support you, but even then you can only help >> yourself.
>> If someone told you they had anger management problems would you be able >> to >> help them? I somewhat doubt it, only they can help themselves. What would >> you do? You could possibly support them and encourage them, but thats >> about >> the most you can do, and even thats asking alot.
>> John > ___________________________________ > Support and encouragement is not asking a lot. It is what human > beings provide to each other, especially if they consider themselves > friends. It is cruel to withhold it from someone who has asked for it.
I guess it depends on the level of support you are asking for. Bare in mind some people have many associates and it is an impossibility to give support to someone who is just an acquantance. Obviously I dont know your exact situation, its just something to keep in mind.
Besides that, I dont see it as cruel, its their time, their choice, they can do what they like, it only becomes cruel when they activly choose to inflict something on you.
Its like me asking you to pass the salt. You dont have to, sure its nice to, but you shouldnt be condemend for not doing so.
> On Mar 22, 11:17 am, "John Sheppard" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote: >> "Skog" <thes...@juno.com> wrote in message
>> > On Mar 22, 12:21 am, "John Sheppard" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote: >> >> "Skog" <thes...@juno.com> wrote in message
>> Its like me asking you to pass the salt. You dont have to, sure its nice >> to, >> but you shouldnt be condemend for not doing so. > ______________________________________ > It's more like this. After years of you not passing the salt when I > asked, I told you how hard it was for me to ask, and how much it hurt > me when you still didn't pass the salt when I asked. Then, the next > time I ask you to pass the salt, you still don't do it, and when my > reaction discloses that it hurt me, you ignore that, too.
That still doesnt mean in anyway they should be condemned for not passing the salt. They have no obligation to help you whatsoever. Just because it would be kind, courtious and civil to do so is irrelevant.
How many ants have you stood on in your life? Did ya ever stop to help them out? Should you be condemned for not doing so?
> That still doesnt mean in anyway they should be condemned for not passing > the salt. They have no obligation to help you whatsoever. Just because it > would be kind, courtious and civil to do so is irrelevant.
> How many ants have you stood on in your life? Did ya ever stop to help > them out? Should you be condemned for not doing so?
Hm, actually i avoid them , and i try to help the ones that occasionally wounded. Ants have solidarity , good to mention them. I didnt see an ant who has AvPD Lol
>It's been over 9 months now since I told 2 people about AVPD. I have >to >come to grips now with the reality that they are not going to help me. >I didn't get the kind of empathetic reaction I hoped for at the >outset and even when I try to point out how they respond to me in a >way that makes me feel rejected, they don't seem to get it. Both of >them want to just have casual conversations from time-to-time and are >willing to ignore me for days when I withdraw, despite now knowing >something about what that means. They don't dislike me; they just >aren't going to help me. I wasn't interested in help from anyone >else, so this is very discouraging.
On 22 Mar 2007 09:14:33 -0700, "Skog" <thes...@juno.com> wrote:
>On Mar 22, 12:21 am, "John Sheppard" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote: >> "Skog" <thes...@juno.com> wrote in message >___________________________________ >Support and encouragement is not asking a lot. It is what human >beings provide to each other,
You are right. It is the natural condition. It is hardwired into the human brain, since (unfortunately) humans are social animals.
When it is withheld, as in some families, then the person will always feel ungrounded. Add in the associated abuse, and the rest is history... like being here.
>especially if they consider themselves >friends. It is cruel to withhold it from someone who has asked for it.
they obviously are not your friends.
Btw, I told my family members and every single one of them ignored it everafter. Every single one. They didn't want to be bothered. Whether or not someone can/will be supportive has nothing to do with working with them or having been born in the same family with them.
So, the way of the lone wolf is the way open to us. It can make you stronger, if you survive it.
I have worked on it for many years. Finally, through the power of the internet, I hopefully have the last piece needed. It's not usenet, though :)
It's internet phamarcies... and the key word is propanolol.
So my experiments in the days ahead will be comprised of throwing myself into situations that would reflexively make me blush/sweat. If I can eliminate the humiliating outward symptoms, the rest will be easy.
heh I used to avoid them, I still try my best for the most part, but sometimes its not possible or my mind is elsewhere.
Ants r cool, alot of em have suicidal tendancies though, either that or they're completly unaware my empty bowl of food sitting on the bench is about to go into the dishwasher :)
"rado" <funky.croo...@g.mail.com> wrote in message
>> That still doesnt mean in anyway they should be condemned for not passing >> the salt. They have no obligation to help you whatsoever. Just because it >> would be kind, courtious and civil to do so is irrelevant.
>> How many ants have you stood on in your life? Did ya ever stop to help >> them out? Should you be condemned for not doing so?
> Hm, actually i avoid them , and i try to help the ones that occasionally > wounded. > Ants have solidarity , good to mention them. I didnt see an ant who has > AvPD > Lol
> On 22 Mar 2007 09:14:33 -0700, "Skog" <thes...@juno.com> wrote:
>>On Mar 22, 12:21 am, "John Sheppard" <nos...@nospam.com> wrote: >>> "Skog" <thes...@juno.com> wrote in message
>>___________________________________ >>Support and encouragement is not asking a lot. It is what human >>beings provide to each other,
> You are right. It is the natural condition. It is hardwired into the > human brain, since (unfortunately) humans are social animals.
It is only natural condition within ones immediate family or tribe.....inter family people haveing been waring for a long time as far as I can tell...
*most* people have the ability to empathise with other humans unless they are psychopaths/narcassists or brain damaged in some way, but thats different from actually going the next step and providing support and encouragement which depends on other factors...
Also the fact that we are social is a fortunate thing, if humans werent social we'd be unlikly to have evolved nearly as advanced, well if ya could call us that.
> When it is withheld, as in some families, then the person will always > feel ungrounded. Add in the associated abuse, and the rest is > history... like being here.
>>especially if they consider themselves >>friends. It is cruel to withhold it from someone who has asked for it.
> they obviously are not your friends.
> Btw, I told my family members and every single one of them ignored it > everafter. Every single one. They didn't want to be bothered. Whether > or not someone can/will be supportive has nothing to do with working > with them or having been born in the same family with them.
id hazard to say its more often than not has to do with the other persons awareness, ability to help, availability to help, etc. Busy people dont have time to empathize, typical workplaces are busy, its a bad place to ask for empathy.
> So, the way of the lone wolf is the way open to us. It can make you > stronger, if you survive it.
> I have worked on it for many years. Finally, through the power of the > internet, I hopefully have the last piece needed. It's not usenet, > though :)
> It's internet phamarcies... and the key word is propanolol.
> So my experiments in the days ahead will be comprised of throwing > myself into situations that would reflexively make me blush/sweat. If > I can eliminate the humiliating outward symptoms, the rest will be > easy.
On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 03:21:05 +1000, "John Sheppard"
<nos...@nospam.com> wrote: >> It's internet phamarcies... and the key word is propanolol.
>> So my experiments in the days ahead will be comprised of throwing >> myself into situations that would reflexively make me blush/sweat. If >> I can eliminate the humiliating outward symptoms, the rest will be >> easy.
>Have you tried benzos? R beta-blockers better?
All I ask of a drug anymore is to eliminate the blushing/sweating. I will do the rest. In fact, I prefer to do the rest.
In past, I used alcohol. And so I was able to go out and be a bigshot and meet girls - who would eventually give me Xanax that they or a relative had on hand. Some were nurses. That was years ago. I found that I would have to take 2-3 of the orange ones at a "high-stress and being-trapped" event, like a funeral. IIRC that was .5 mg or else 5 mg for each orange pill, but I could be wrong since the absolute value meant nothing to me.
After the event, I would come home and have to just sleep it off on the couch for hours. It mostly dulled me, which was anyway far superior to the anxiety attack in public.
I also had Ativan (sp) and some others. Another girlfriend, a psychotherapist, gave me a big bunch of Prozac. That did crap after 6 weeks, except make me tired each afternoon. Plus there were the other known negative effects.
But the beta blocker prevents an anxiety attack. At first I got ahold of some Toprol XL, and chewed up the tablets along with GABA. It's like turning off a faucet before a torrent of water can come gushing out... at least so far.
So I'll do the rest, I've been teaching myself and practicing for years.
The BB won't make you woozy or get you a DUI, either.
Besides, if I ordered benzodiazapines online, I'd be waiting for days for the police to come knocking. Negative thinkning / paranoia is part of all this. Besides, the worst that can conceivably happen often comes true anyway, at least in my experience.
On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 03:21:05 +1000, "John Sheppard"
<nos...@nospam.com> wrote: >> You are right. It is the natural condition. It is hardwired into the >> human brain, since (unfortunately) humans are social animals.
>It is only natural condition within ones immediate family or tribe.....inter >family people haveing been waring for a long time as far as I can tell...
yes, and with no confict being present, we invent it - such as football of either kind
>*most* people have the ability to empathise with other humans
but only superficially. Now we have the specter of a psychopaths like Madonna and Angelina Jolie reaping tons of praise for her adopt-a-politically-correct-baby crap. For Angelina, that's in between homewrecking, of course.
>unless they >are psychopaths/narcassists or brain damaged in some way, but thats >different from actually going the next step and providing support and >encouragement which depends on other factors...
I would tend to help somebody that I thought was suffering. Well, I used to be that way. Now I would only help somebody that I judged was worthy of it.
>Also the fact that we are social is a fortunate thing, if humans werent >social we'd be unlikly to have evolved nearly as advanced, well if ya could >call us that.
I'd counter, John, that most of the suffering that occurs in the world comes via other humans. Some from personal involvements, others from merely social causes.
Besides, we are advanced only technologically.
I have tried to live my life in a way to have personal relationships, but not many social ones. I have to change that, since a lone wolf likely starves to death.
All in all, if your major point is that you have to rely on yourself, then I agree with you. But try a mini thought experiment: imagine yourself facing some very stressful situation, but with 2 or 3 people behind you who think just like you and are also going to back you up 100%. If I do that, I *feel* differently inside. Now conversely imagine yourself facing the same very stressful situation, but this time with 2 or 3 people along who are going to examine your every move and berate you about it constantly. Add to that that when you naturally and inevitably get very nervous and *show* that, that you then get berated and ridiculed for being nervous.
So it's natural that the lower mind thrives on support.
> On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 03:21:05 +1000, "John Sheppard" > <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>> It's internet phamarcies... and the key word is propanolol.
>>> So my experiments in the days ahead will be comprised of throwing >>> myself into situations that would reflexively make me blush/sweat. If >>> I can eliminate the humiliating outward symptoms, the rest will be >>> easy.
>>Have you tried benzos? R beta-blockers better?
> All I ask of a drug anymore is to eliminate the blushing/sweating. I > will do the rest. In fact, I prefer to do the rest.
> In past, I used alcohol. And so I was able to go out and be a bigshot > and meet girls - who would eventually give me Xanax that they or a > relative had on hand. Some were nurses. That was years ago. I found > that I would have to take 2-3 of the orange ones at a "high-stress and > being-trapped" event, like a funeral. IIRC that was .5 mg or else 5 mg > for each orange pill, but I could be wrong since the absolute value > meant nothing to me.
> After the event, I would come home and have to just sleep it off on > the couch for hours. It mostly dulled me, which was anyway far > superior to the anxiety attack in public.
> I also had Ativan (sp) and some others. Another girlfriend, a > psychotherapist, gave me a big bunch of Prozac. That did crap after 6 > weeks, except make me tired each afternoon. Plus there were the other > known negative effects.
> But the beta blocker prevents an anxiety attack. At first I got ahold > of some Toprol XL, and chewed up the tablets along with GABA. It's > like turning off a faucet before a torrent of water can come gushing > out... at least so far.
> So I'll do the rest, I've been teaching myself and practicing for > years.
> The BB won't make you woozy or get you a DUI, either.
> Besides, if I ordered benzodiazapines online, I'd be waiting for days > for the police to come knocking. Negative thinkning / paranoia is part > of all this. Besides, the worst that can conceivably happen often > comes true anyway, at least in my experience.
Yeah, Ive always found benzo's to be fairly successful, alot of doctors refuse to prescribe those though, i can kinda understand why.
I found SSRI's to help too but the sideeffects are often worse than the cure. Most of em made me tired to the point of not being able to function. IMO though 6 weeks on prozac is not long enough to know if it is successful, they can take a long time to begin to work. One i was on took a good 3 months to work.
Ive ordered benzos online a few times before, I havent been arrested, but more often than not customs get the package and its just a fuck around and waste of money.
Inderol sounds interesting but after reading riccips post, im suss :)
> On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 03:21:05 +1000, "John Sheppard" > <nos...@nospam.com> wrote: >>> You are right. It is the natural condition. It is hardwired into the >>> human brain, since (unfortunately) humans are social animals.
>>It is only natural condition within ones immediate family or >>tribe.....inter >>family people haveing been waring for a long time as far as I can tell...
> yes, and with no confict being present, we invent it - such as > football of either kind
thats right :) also capitalism :) Ya wont find much empathy there.
>>*most* people have the ability to empathise with other humans
> but only superficially. Now we have the specter of a psychopaths like > Madonna and Angelina Jolie reaping tons of praise for her > adopt-a-politically-correct-baby crap. For Angelina, that's in between > homewrecking, of course.
>>unless they >>are psychopaths/narcassists or brain damaged in some way, but thats >>different from actually going the next step and providing support and >>encouragement which depends on other factors...
> I would tend to help somebody that I thought was suffering. Well, I > used to be that way. Now I would only help somebody that I judged was > worthy of it.
yeah im a bit like that too, well I only really like to help if I can see the person is taking responsability for themselves, otherwise its a waste of my energy. But thats mostly cause I dont have unlimited energy, im not fully aware of peoples entire life history. I have my own needs to fulfil.
What is concidered worthy? Do you believe in freewill?
Thing ya gotta ask is, why help anyone at all? why? whats in it for me?
Cause like it or not you are a seperate entity right? wrong? I feel like a seperate entity until I empathise?
There are many questions that all raises :)
>>Also the fact that we are social is a fortunate thing, if humans werent >>social we'd be unlikly to have evolved nearly as advanced, well if ya >>could >>call us that.
> I'd counter, John, that most of the suffering that occurs in the world > comes via other humans. Some from personal involvements, others from > merely social causes.
> Besides, we are advanced only technologically.
I guess I more so mean things like survival, which is the primary reason we evolved into social beings.
Personally, if i had a choice to be human or a dog, id choose human every day of the week and twice on sunday. Its difficult to explain why.
> I have tried to live my life in a way to have personal relationships, > but not many social ones. I have to change that, since a lone wolf > likely starves to death.
> All in all, if your major point is that you have to rely on yourself, > then I agree with you. But try a mini thought experiment: imagine > yourself facing some very stressful situation, but with 2 or 3 people > behind you who think just like you and are also going to back you up > 100%. If I do that, I *feel* differently inside. Now conversely > imagine yourself facing the same very stressful situation, but this > time with 2 or 3 people along who are going to examine your every move > and berate you about it constantly. Add to that that when you > naturally and inevitably get very nervous and *show* that, that you > then get berated and ridiculed for being nervous.
> So it's natural that the lower mind thrives on support.
Yeah, that was my basic arguement, rely on yourself, it is foolish and self defeating to expect others to help. I wont deny its nice to have help, as ur thought experiment states. I just think dont expect it cause a) you are gonna get let down b) people are not oblidged to help simply because they are humans (which i kinda feel like skog was thinking was the way things should be)
On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:44:57 +1000, "John Sheppard"
<nos...@nospam.com> wrote: >Inderol sounds interesting but after reading riccips post, im suss :)
here's what I think, my friend*
it's because I have put in the very long, grueling, mental work and practical application, that it works so well in providing the missing ingredient
you might be one/only person here who knows what I mean
you you'd make a mistake by being nannied out of it
also, if you have no fears of ordering online, get some GBL
aka chrome cleaner or some such facade
it is pure dynamite as far as sociablity
---
*saying "my friend"
I have always been doomed as far as making male friends in real life. I never (hardly) suffer from a shortage of women, but buddies to hang around with have been scarce.
Once I'm in a bar, my bar friend introduces me to his aquaintance, says he's a power lifter. I figure: great, I lift and it would be a new thing to have somebody to do it together with. So we're talking, pal to pal kind of stuff, and he says, "watch this". He orders another drink at the bar, but when the bar wench reaches out for the money, he pulls it away - like a joke.
So she takes it all bad (maybe they had some interaction earlier) and she rings the hidden buzzer to summon the steroid-junkie bouncers. Anways, they gang up but it tuyrns ouyt they knko wtrhe guy. So they talk nicely for a few minutes, and then escort him out peacably.
What a freak of a thing. But typical for my existence.
On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:59:09 +1000, "John Sheppard"
<nos...@nospam.com> wrote: >yeah im a bit like that too, well I only really like to help if I can see >the person is taking responsability for themselves, otherwise its a waste of >my energy. But thats mostly cause I dont have unlimited energy, im not fully >aware of peoples entire life history. I have my own needs to fulfil.
>What is concidered worthy? Do you believe in freewill?
I now mostly believe that you couldn't invent a bigger asshole than a human being :)
>Thing ya gotta ask is, why help anyone at all? why? whats in it for me?
I do it because it is the right thing to do. Just for that. I couldn't change now even if I wanted to, it's ingrained.
Here is something else I've discovered: the more moral I am, the more I expect it of others. So then the more I am disappointed and frustrated - and angry. The anger makes me want to strike out, but usually I know I can't, so that builds up the repressed anger which leads to a panic attack. E.g., if somebody ahead of me in the express checkout has more than TEN ITEMS! The bastard ! :)
But now, with chemical intervention, I speak up. It's fun. Well, I did it once and it was fun. The guy apologized and asked me if I wnted ot go ahead of him. I felt a little guilty.
>Cause like it or not you are a seperate entity right? wrong? I feel like a >seperate entity until I empathise?
I empathize immediately and strongly with anyone who is being selfless and self-sacrificing. It's are in this world, but it still happens sometimes.
>I guess I more so mean things like survival, which is the primary reason we >evolved into social beings.
I always say: if you want to understand humans, just watch the animal shows on tv.
>Personally, if i had a choice to be human or a dog, id choose human every >day of the week and twice on sunday. Its difficult to explain why.
being aware is very important to me. I would hate to die in my sleep, e.g.
>Yeah, that was my basic arguement, rely on yourself, it is foolish and self >defeating to expect others to help. >I wont deny its nice to have help, as ur thought experiment states. I just >think dont expect it cause a) you are gonna get let down b) people are not >oblidged to help simply because they are humans (which i kinda feel like >skog was thinking was the way things should be)
Yes, good ol' Skog. What happened to him/her? People do seem to come and go quite quickly around here :) (said Dorothy)
What I try to do is to behave "as if" I trust people... while knowing that I trust no one, and with good reason.
> On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:44:57 +1000, "John Sheppard" > <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>Inderol sounds interesting but after reading riccips post, im suss :)
> here's what I think, my friend*
> it's because I have put in the very long, grueling, mental work and > practical application, that it works so well in providing the missing > ingredient
That makes sense.
> you might be one/only person here who knows what I mean
Id like to say I have done the work, but unfortunatly I havent done the hard yards *yet*, ive kinda done the not so hard yards...if one can do such a thing..
> you you'd make a mistake by being nannied out of it
> also, if you have no fears of ordering online, get some GBL
> aka chrome cleaner or some such facade
> it is pure dynamite as far as sociablity
heh yeah, I had a look at GHB, mixin GBL with NaOh (i cant recall the chemical right now but i think i got it right) seemed like something i didnt wanna be ingesting, but I dont know enough about chemstry to know about these things.
But in either case I guess all that stuff is short lasting and not something that can be used in work situations. Additionally my experience with say nightclubbing or whatnot where everyone is plastered to ensure social fluidity is that nobody actually really connects, its all a facade. But I guess knowing and experienceing this can help to a certain degree.
Ill see if i can get hold of inderol and give it a try...see what happens...if it works ill do the necessary research, or perhaps the other way round..
> I have always been doomed as far as making male friends in real life. > I never (hardly) suffer from a shortage of women, but buddies to hang > around with have been scarce.
> Once I'm in a bar, my bar friend introduces me to his aquaintance, > says he's a power lifter. I figure: great, I lift and it would be a > new thing to have somebody to do it together with. So we're talking, > pal to pal kind of stuff, and he says, "watch this". He orders another > drink at the bar, but when the bar wench reaches out for the money, he > pulls it away - like a joke.
> So she takes it all bad (maybe they had some interaction earlier) and > she rings the hidden buzzer to summon the steroid-junkie bouncers. > Anways, they gang up but it tuyrns ouyt they knko wtrhe guy. So they > talk nicely for a few minutes, and then escort him out peacably.
> What a freak of a thing. But typical for my existence.
yeah im a bit like that, dont have any male friends, well any friends ive had for years have been female relationships.
I guess the thing is, that is a freak of a thing, but the friendship never really got started in the first place, ya can have 100's of such happenings in a bar.
> On Sun, 25 Mar 2007 19:59:09 +1000, "John Sheppard" > <nos...@nospam.com> wrote:
>>yeah im a bit like that too, well I only really like to help if I can see >>the person is taking responsability for themselves, otherwise its a waste >>of >>my energy. But thats mostly cause I dont have unlimited energy, im not >>fully >>aware of peoples entire life history. I have my own needs to fulfil.
>>What is concidered worthy? Do you believe in freewill?
> I now mostly believe that you couldn't invent a bigger asshole than a > human being :)
hahaha, I dunno, I guess it depends on how ya look at it. Its just existance and thats how it is. Putting conotations of asshole on it is just cynicism which is not entirly logical. Its like saying nature is an asshole. Sure it can be (when ya get hit by that earthquake or whatnot), but thats just the way it is.
>>Thing ya gotta ask is, why help anyone at all? why? whats in it for me?
> I do it because it is the right thing to do. Just for that. I couldn't > change now even if I wanted to, it's ingrained.
Whats the right thing to do? That differs greatly between cultures and people, and like u say its mostly ingrained, somethin learned. I would say the right thing to do is act with perfect reasoning 100% of the time, but its very difficult to do that.
> Here is something else I've discovered: the more moral I am, the more > I expect it of others. So then the more I am disappointed and > frustrated - and angry. The anger makes me want to strike out, but > usually I know I can't, so that builds up the repressed anger which > leads to a panic attack. E.g., if somebody ahead of me in the express > checkout has more than TEN ITEMS! The bastard ! :)
Yeah that happens, Jesus musta been a very frustrated man :) (Thats if ur into christianity and stuff)
> But now, with chemical intervention, I speak up. It's fun. Well, I did > it once and it was fun. The guy apologized and asked me if I wnted ot > go ahead of him. I felt a little guilty.
>>Cause like it or not you are a seperate entity right? wrong? I feel like a >>seperate entity until I empathise?
> I empathize immediately and strongly with anyone who is being selfless > and self-sacrificing. It's are in this world, but it still happens > sometimes.
Its always easier to empathize with people who are similar to you. It sucks to be different :) On the empathy thing, people who are assholes cant empathize. They are like missing a sense. It is in that regard that they are weak/missing out/less conscious or what not. Thats why I dont particularly think of them as assholes, cause its not really true.
>>I guess I more so mean things like survival, which is the primary reason >>we >>evolved into social beings.
> I always say: if you want to understand humans, just watch the animal > shows on tv.
>>Personally, if i had a choice to be human or a dog, id choose human every >>day of the week and twice on sunday. Its difficult to explain why.
> being aware is very important to me. I would hate to die in my sleep, > e.g.
>>Yeah, that was my basic arguement, rely on yourself, it is foolish and >>self >>defeating to expect others to help. >>I wont deny its nice to have help, as ur thought experiment states. I just >>think dont expect it cause a) you are gonna get let down b) people are not >>oblidged to help simply because they are humans (which i kinda feel like >>skog was thinking was the way things should be)
> Yes, good ol' Skog. What happened to him/her? People do seem to come > and go quite quickly around here :) (said Dorothy)
> What I try to do is to behave "as if" I trust people... while knowing > that I trust no one, and with good reason.
Ill agree with that philosophy...its the practical way to be, it allows you to trust someone dynamically..
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