In article <virtualoso-ya02408000R2907991924570...@news.earthlink.net>,
virtual...@innocent.com (Virtualoso) wrote: >What's more, findings continue to come in that prayer and meditation >measurably, consistently and objectively enhance and increase many, many >medical treatments. Sometimes dramaticly.
>Which came first: the egg of faith healing or the chicken of effective >medication?
I don't know. For me, eating eggs and chicken provides just the right amount of protein :)
In article <379FE93F.C2312...@earthlink.net>, "Buddy H."
<budd...@earthlink.net> wrote: > Bill, how is what I said a "sweeping generalization," and to > whatever extent it *is* a generalization, how does it do a > disservice to folks battling clinical depression. Are you saying > that most depressions are clinical depressions? Are you saying > that seeking insight into one's illness, as I suggested in my > post, in some way harms people? How so? If we can come to > understand the origins of our mental illness, aren't we in a > better position to take the steps that will lead us out of the > darkness?
Hi Buddy,
I quoted you in the last post, and said:
> > "As a possibility", possibly so....a certainly worth looking into. But > > "most depressions for most people" is FAR too broad a brush stroke.
That was the 'sweeping generalization".
> Bill, IMHO, it seems to me that it's actually *you* that's using > the broad brush. Do you really believe that most depressions are > clinical depression? Or, that depression cannot be helped through > insight and understanding?
What I think really doesn't matter, as I am in a public forum, am not a doctor, and therefore do not dispense medical advice.
Perhaps I was strong in my reply to your post. I wrote as I did simply because FAR too many alcoholics have died while in AA from well meaning but misguided alkies who encouraged them to seek non-medical solutions to real medical problems.
I always speak up when I hear people offering such insights.
Buddy, I do not disparage your motives, nor your spritual beliefs, I simply ask that you consider that sometimes our words have effects far beyond what we may have intended. Sometimes terrible effects.
> In article <379FE93F.C2312...@earthlink.net>, "Buddy H." > <budd...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Bill, how is what I said a "sweeping generalization," and to > > whatever extent it *is* a generalization, how does it do a > > disservice to folks battling clinical depression. Are you saying > > that most depressions are clinical depressions? Are you saying > > that seeking insight into one's illness, as I suggested in my > > post, in some way harms people? How so? If we can come to > > understand the origins of our mental illness, aren't we in a > > better position to take the steps that will lead us out of the > > darkness?
> Hi Buddy,
> I quoted you in the last post, and said:
> > > "As a possibility", possibly so....a certainly worth looking into. But > > > "most depressions for most people" is FAR too broad a brush stroke.
> That was the 'sweeping generalization".
> > Bill, IMHO, it seems to me that it's actually *you* that's using > > the broad brush. Do you really believe that most depressions are > > clinical depression? Or, that depression cannot be helped through > > insight and understanding?
> What I think really doesn't matter, as I am in a public forum, am not a > doctor, and therefore do not dispense medical advice.
> Perhaps I was strong in my reply to your post. I wrote as I did simply > because FAR too many alcoholics have died while in AA from well meaning > but misguided alkies who encouraged them to seek non-medical solutions to > real medical problems.
> I always speak up when I hear people offering such insights.
> Buddy, I do not disparage your motives, nor your spritual beliefs, I > simply ask that you consider that sometimes our words have effects far > beyond what we may have intended. Sometimes terrible effects.
> and, I wish you well,
> Bill B > 7/9/79
I didn't say anything about my spiritual beliefs. My post was about the relationship between anxiety and depression that I think I've observed in myself and in others. I also didn't say anything about avoiding medical treatment. I think that anyone with a depression that meets sufficient criteria should definitely seek help, and I also believe that others should attempt to intervene to obtain medical attention on their behalf if they are unable to do so, which might very well include prescribed medication. So, I'm still at a loss as to how either your or Nantau's post actually relates to anything I wrote.
You've appointed yourself as Defender of the Dead, though I'm not sure you would get my vote if an actual election were held. There is a strong impetus among many people to deny that our own actions may play a role in our mental health or mental illness in most cases, perhaps a decisive role. People have taken extreme examples like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder and concluded that everything is about "chemical imbalances." There's no evidence to suggest that people are passive victims of mental illness, in most instances. This is a mythology that is adopted in part because people want to be rid of feelings of guilt and shame, and they don't know any other way of ridding themselves of those feelings. One consequence of this mythology may very well be the deaths of many, many people. No jury can be assembled to decide that case.
I apologize for being so sarcastic in my last post. -- Regards, Buddy
> > Hmmm Bob....don't you know the BB is the Elixir for whatever ails you? > > Mike, if he is such a person, is a fanatic or a person portraying Mike > > as a fanatic.
> > Best, > > GaryE
> who are you talking about?
If this continues, we may have to see if we can put it in the FAQ. See, it's like this: Gary thinks that everybody that disagrees with him is actually one or two people posting under a multitude of pseudonyms -- Professor Moriarty of sorts. So, you'll see him asking a lot of people whether they are Jeff or Phil, two guys who post here from time to time. People who argue with Gary don't usually stay here very long. He has an uncanny ability to demean other people and push the right buttons. Gary is well-liked and gets a lot of support for this. It's probably not the most exotic thing you'll see in this news group, either. -- Regards, Buddy
> Hmmm Bob....don't you know the BB is the Elixir for whatever ails you? > Best, > GaryE
Did you see that the Surgeon General is beginning a campaign to decrease the prevalence of suicide? Suicide is a major public health problem and depression is a primary cause of suicide. Of course who are you going to listen to: the Surgeon General or some nitwit who doesn't seem capable of expressing any thought not coined by another?
G'Day 'netters, been slumming it in Yahoo FOBillW chat for a while now, until I tried "cybering", with confidence that exceeded my ability, and failed:) Lurked here from time to time, but this thread, and your your post in particular, has motivated a response Mike.
The Big Book contained the directions that turned my life around, but to quote it here as you have done, seemingly as the ultimate authority on depression, is a continuation of the hypocracy of Bill Wilson, who forged a career out of the emerging recovery bandwaggon.
Did not take me long to discover the hypocracy behind the AA New Testament, the 12X12, by following that word depression through the index of "Pass It On." Bill was chasing the almighty $, telling the world how to be "Happy, Joyous, and Free, while in a state of suicidal depression himself. Why so many claim to want what Bill had continues to astound me
Having been freed from decades of depression, after abandoning _all_ medication as a result of the steps, I am qualified to speak for myself. I cannot prove that the 12 steps, and abandoning medication, conquered depression, may be just a coincidence:)
Neither can my friend, GaryE, (great to see you still here Gary) prove that chemical imballance _causes_ depression. Which came first, the thought processes related to depression, or the body chemistry associated with depression?
Arguably, the next generation of science will prove that the prescription drug industry has an even more barbaric effect on the world psyche, than those well meaning surgeons and their frontal lobotomies.
Licking my wounds after venturing out of the "seasonless world" financially and emotionally hurt by my ineptitude at "Loving," will be interesting to see if depression, once again, gains dominance in my own psyche. Am confident that if I continue with the BBp58/9 preconditions, and steps, it wont.
: > : > >Mike <M...@SpamFree.com> wrote: : > > : > >> depression is the impression left by fear?! : : : > > : > >So Mike - is the purpose of this proclamation to make people feel guilty : > >about being depressed? Maybe high blood pressure exists because one : > >doesn't work the steps properly. What about diabetes - guess its cuz they : > >didn't pray hard ewnough. Sheesh. : > > : > >"The only way out is through." : > >-Robert Frost : > : : : > Thanks, Grace. For reminding me why I dumped this guy to the killfile. : > : > Julie : : : : : water seeks it's own level.... : : : Let them remember that his drinking wrought all kinds of damage that may : take long to repair. If they sense these things, they will not take so : seriously his periods of crankiness, depression, or apathy, which will : disappear when there is tolerance, love, and spiritual understanding. : p127 bigbook : : -- : In some circumstances we have gone out deliberately to get drunk, : feeling ourselves justified by nervousness, anger, worry, depression, : jealousy or the like. p37 bigbook : : -- : We were having trouble with personal relationships, we couldn't control : our emotional natures, we were a prey to misery and depression, we : couldn't make a living, we had a feeling of uselessness, we were full of : fear, we were unhappy, we couldn't seem to be of real help to other : people- p52 bigbook : : -- : His alcoholic problem was so complex and his depression so great, that : we felt his only hope would be through what we then called "moral : psychology", and we doubted if even that would have any effect. THE : DOCTOR'S OPINION xxix
>And have you ever seen a seriously depressed person that's been undergoing >wrong meds?
Though my experience is very limited...yes. Still remains that when or what is important is the individual doing that which works for them....some find it in the steps, some a combination of steps & meds, some stictly meds, etc etc....hopefully they find their answer and not just seep deeper into their hole.
I do believe this started out as the members with sweeping generalizations causing harm.....or something alone those lines....and it seems to me the parts of the puzzle include many different pieces for a complete picture...hardcore rigid thumpers of my way or the highway certainly don't help matters and as you point out docs that don't know or care to know aren't much better. But also in the mix is the sufferer too....willing to do almost anything for relief and at the same time fighting the idea they even need relief. It's a situation with too few solutions...enough so that when one is found one would think those aware would rejoice instead of condemn...might be some human nature deal??
Virtualoso wrote in message ... >In article <JJ4o3.9$g91.2...@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>, "Robert M Reid" ><robert_mcgre...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>> The Big Book contained the directions that turned my life around...
>>Bill was chasing the almighty $, telling the >> world how to be "Happy, Joyous, and Free, while in a state of >> suicidal depression himself. Why so many claim to want what Bill had >> continues to astound me
>> Having been freed from decades of depression, after abandoning _all_ >> medication as a result of the steps, I am qualified to speak for >> myself. ...will be >> interesting to see if depression, once again, gains dominance in my >> own psyche. Am confident that if I continue with the BBp58/9 >> preconditions, and steps, it wont.
>Interesting paradox you present.
On a tape of Bill W., he mentions that Steps 5,6 and 7 in the 12x12 specifically describe how he treated his depression. It is intresting to read those Steps with this insight. Jimb
> I didn't say anything about my spiritual beliefs. My post was > about the relationship between anxiety and depression that I think > I've observed in myself and in others. I also didn't say anything > about avoiding medical treatment. I think that anyone with a > depression that meets sufficient criteria should definitely seek > help, and I also believe that others should attempt to intervene > to obtain medical attention on their behalf if they are unable to > do so, which might very well include prescribed medication. So, > I'm still at a loss as to how either your or Nantau's post > actually relates to anything I wrote.
I don't believe I made any comments about spiritual belief, I've known for a long time that we don't agree, and that's Jake with me. I agree with everything you have stated above.
> You've appointed yourself as Defender of the Dead, though I'm not > sure you would get my vote if an actual election were held. There > is a strong impetus among many people to deny that our own actions > may play a role in our mental health or mental illness in most > cases, perhaps a decisive role.
I don't think i can disagree with you on that....I see a direct parallel between this factor and victimization, though you've been around here long enough to know what that attitude evoked as a response. I agree with you, but it seems like a chicken/egg sorta situation, one of those grey thingies...
People have taken extreme
> examples like schizophrenia or bipolar disorder and concluded that > everything is about "chemical imbalances."
That has been the catch phrase of the last quarter century...that is a very real factor.
There's no evidence to
> suggest that people are passive victims of mental illness, in most > instances.
Agreed...but are they driven to the illness, or is the illness driven to them? I would also ask the same question of alcoholism.
This is a mythology that is adopted in part because
> people want to be rid of feelings of guilt and shame, and they > don't know any other way of ridding themselves of those feelings.
I'm not sure it all comes down to original sin, though I certainly concede your point...because, if there is original sin, there has to be original salvation...black and white...shit, there we goagain...I feel like a dog wondering which part of the tree I want to piss on.
> One consequence of this mythology may very well be the deaths of > many, many people. No jury can be assembled to decide that case.
> > > Hmmm Bob....don't you know the BB is the Elixir for whatever ails you? > > > Mike, if he is such a person, is a fanatic or a person portraying Mike > > > as a fanatic.
> > > Best, > > > GaryE
> > who are you talking about?
> If this continues, we may have to see if we can put it in the > FAQ. See, it's like this: Gary thinks that everybody that > disagrees with him is actually one or two people posting under a > multitude of pseudonyms -- Professor Moriarty of sorts. So, > you'll see him asking a lot of people whether they are Jeff or > Phil, two guys who post here from time to time. People who argue > with Gary don't usually stay here very long. He has an uncanny > ability to demean other people and push the right buttons. Gary > is well-liked and gets a lot of support for this. It's probably > not the most exotic thing you'll see in this news group, either. > -- > Regards, > Buddy
> In article <virtualoso-ya02408000R2907991924570...@news.earthlink.net>, > virtual...@innocent.com (Virtualoso) wrote:
> >What's more, findings continue to come in that prayer and meditation > >measurably, consistently and objectively enhance and increase many, many > >medical treatments. Sometimes dramaticly.
> >Which came first: the egg of faith healing or the chicken of effective > >medication?
> I don't know. For me, eating eggs and chicken provides just the right > amount of protein :)
> -- > daniel > 8-2-86
we had this huge faith healing revival at the Norfolk scope a while back. One guy who came to be healed ended up getting beaten by a mob of faithful when they laid hands on him and then became enraged that he did not walk away from his wheel chair.
Yes, faith, prayer and meditation have been proven to be effective in healing the sick and injured. But how much of that is from a placebo effect? How much of that is just the effect that a healthy positive outlook has on ones mental and physical health?
Prayer, meditation and faith work in unison with medicine.
"Buddy H." wrote: > People who argue > with Gary don't usually stay here very long. He has an uncanny > ability to demean other people and push the right buttons. Gary > is well-liked and gets a lot of support for this. It's probably > not the most exotic thing you'll see in this news group, either.
Well liked? Lot's of support? Is there a "Help Gary Fight the Thumpers" foundation to which I can send a check? Buddy, I enjoy you much. The above, however, reeks of the "us vs them" mentality. I think Mike can handle himself. Hell, anybody that can whip out 75 live web links in a few seconds possesses a few formidable attributes...<g>
Now let's see, where did I put that "Save the Gar" headband??
Ed
> -- > Regards, > Buddy
-- Every time I see you falling, I get down on my knee's and pray.... I'm waiting for that final moment, when you can see the words that I can see....
> The irony, of course, is that suicides are found in disproportionately > higher numbers within certain segments, such as psychiatrists. And they are > who prescribe anti-depressant meds.
> --
Can you back that satement up? Its my understanding that the groups at risk are teenagers (especially gay teenagers) and Native Americans.
Grace wrote in message ... >In article <virtualoso-ya02408000R3007990007580...@news.earthlink.net>, >virtual...@innocent.com (Virtualoso) wrote:
>> The irony, of course, is that suicides are found in disproportionately >> higher numbers within certain segments, such as psychiatrists. And they are >> who prescribe anti-depressant meds.
>> -- >Can you back that satement up? Its my understanding that the groups at >risk are teenagers (especially gay teenagers) and Native Americans.
>Very true....this is the first time in over 11 years in the program that I >have actually come to understand the need for the meds....before that I >always got to a point where I thought I had "changed" enough to come off the >meds. Seems the logic in that is similar to believing it might be safe to >drink again....something I am familiar with.
Right on, Mike..."Hey, I'm cured!" Last time I pulled that stunt I wound up in the hospital for a week in a severe depressive episode. My doc told me to consider that I'd had something akin to a stroke, that I had a family hx of it, that it was chemical in nature, not curable, but highly treatable, that I'd done nothing "wrong", and that I will need to take meds and monitor symptoms for the rest of my life. He also said I'd feel considerably better and not like dying if I did this, that I'd return to a normal level of functioning and that I had a long and relatively happy life to look forward to. Unless, as they say, I have other plans. ;-) So far, 2 1/2 years later, he's been absolutely right.
bi...@directlink.net (Bill) wrote: > In article <379FBBD2.E748E...@earthlink.net>, "Buddy H." > <budd...@earthlink.net> wrote: >> > depression is the impression left by fear?!
>> I'm impressed! It took me a long time to realize and believe that >> this connection exists. I don't believe that it applies to all >> depression, but I suspect that it applies to most depressions for >> most people. Certainly alcoholics should look at this as a >> possibility. *My* wanting produces *my* anxiety which produces >> *my* depression. As I have become able to place fewer demands on >> reality, so have I become able to live each day in a general mood >> of optimism and joy. It's a difficult change to make, to move to >> this new habit. Small steps over time yield results.
> Hi Buddy,
> I think your sweeping generalization does a disservice to those many folks > who are battling clinical depression.
> "As a possibility", possibly so....a certainly worth looking into. But > "most depressions for most people" is FAR too broad a brush stroke.
> I have also noticed a correspondance between alcoholism, and depression > and for that matter, alcoholism and mental illness. Our co-founder fought > depression all through his sobriety, and I suspect he would not have > eschewed medical help.
> IMHO, the broad brush approach to depression is dangerous and > irresponsible. Far too many die for us to be playing philosophy or doctor > games.
> Buddy, how many suicides have you seen in AA?
> Buddy, I know you mean well, I suggest you might want to rethink your > position a bit.
> I wish you well,
> Billb > 7/9/79
I try to keep to the clinical definition of depression when using the word. Too many people think that you can beat this illness simply by "praying" your way out of it or by applying massive doses of the Steps to it. When that doesn't work, the impression can be that neither prayer nor the Steps work. Those sorts of negative emotions can be death to a depressive.
Billb, you're right. Sweeping AA generalizations about depression can be very harmful to recovering alcoholics living with clinical depression. That's why I recommend to people suffering from the illness that they refrain from sharing about it in meetings. If they share it with individuals, they should only share with people they trust.
I didn't go to AA to treat my depression. I've got medical professionals for that.
>> In article <379FBBD2.E748E...@earthlink.net>, "Buddy H." >> <budd...@earthlink.net> wrote: >> > > depression is the impression left by fear?!
>> > I'm impressed! It took me a long time to realize and believe that >> > this connection exists. I don't believe that it applies to all >> > depression, but I suspect that it applies to most depressions for >> > most people. Certainly alcoholics should look at this as a >> > possibility. *My* wanting produces *my* anxiety which produces >> > *my* depression. As I have become able to place fewer demands on >> > reality, so have I become able to live each day in a general mood >> > of optimism and joy. It's a difficult change to make, to move to >> > this new habit. Small steps over time yield results.
>> Hi Buddy,
> Hi, Bill,
>> I think your sweeping generalization does a disservice to those many folks >> who are battling clinical depression.
> Bill, how is what I said a "sweeping generalization," and to > whatever extent it *is* a generalization, how does it do a > disservice to folks battling clinical depression. Are you saying > that most depressions are clinical depressions? Are you saying > that seeking insight into one's illness, as I suggested in my > post, in some way harms people? How so? If we can come to > understand the origins of our mental illness, aren't we in a > better position to take the steps that will lead us out of the > darkness?
>> "As a possibility", possibly so....a certainly worth looking into. But >> "most depressions for most people" is FAR too broad a brush stroke.
> Bill, IMHO, it seems to me that it's actually *you* that's using > the broad brush. Do you really believe that most depressions are > clinical depression? Or, that depression cannot be helped through > insight and understanding? What makes you think that? I have to > tell you that I've seen numerous lives saved and turned around > through the acquisition of insight. Tens of thousands of > psychologists work day and night giving genuine help to the people > who need it so much.
>> I have also noticed a correspondance between alcoholism, and depression >> and for that matter, alcoholism and mental illness. Our co-founder fought >> depression all through his sobriety, and I suspect he would not have >> eschewed medical help.
> Bill, I hope you're not suggesting that anything I said disparages > medical help. If so, could you please point out the exact passage > that troubles you?
>> IMHO, the broad brush approach to depression is dangerous and >> irresponsible. Far too many die for us to be playing philosophy or doctor >> games.
> Bill, how is this a game? I'm hurt that you would say such a > thing.
>> Buddy, how many suicides have you seen in AA?
> I've seen a few. Why do you ask, Bill?
>> Buddy, I know you mean well, I suggest you might want to rethink your >> position a bit.
> Bill, I'm sure you didn't really mean to sound as patronizing as > you did in this post. Rethinking is always a good suggestion. I > hope you give it a try, IMHO.
>> I wish you well,
> I wish you well, too, Bill, IMHO.
>> Billb >> 7/9/79
I can share how I took it when I read it.
One of the things in AA that hurts some people is when a member drops a slogan on them when they're in pain. My reaction to the statement was just that, another throwaway slogan. My experience, both as an AA member and someone who lives with depression, is that AA is the last place I want to go to deal with what is a separate medical illness.
While not speaking for Bill, it seemed to me that the implication is that if I'm depressed, I must be doing something wrong program-wise. I'm not saying that's how you meant it, but that's the way it reads. Sometimes, the jargon and slogans that are tossed around the fellowship can be infuriating to me. When I read that, I said, "here we go again."
Again, I'm not saying that's what you meant, but to paraphrase, rethinking a position might not apply to Bill.
Mollypup wrote in message <7nri71$1...@drn.newsguy.com>... >Hello! I just wanted to let you all know that I got the computer up and running >(finally!) last night!!!
>I hope to be *seeing* you all real soon via computer, and get back to being a >regular araa-er.
In article <7nsvjm$fe...@fir.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, "Roger Jackson"
<mrocto...@earthlink.net> wrote: >Too many people think that you can beat this illness simply by "praying" >your way out of it or by applying massive doses of the Steps to it. When >that doesn't work, the impression can be that neither prayer nor the Steps >work.
This was true for me. Fortunately, i found that the steps and prayer actually led to the proper treament of depression. It was my arrogance (and to some degree the arrogance of others) in believing that prayer and the steps should work for clinical depression that kept me from getting the proper help sooner.
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