To all who are working with Drug User or are interested in issues on Drug Use, Harm Reduction and HIV/AIDS. Here, 2 new booklets are now for sale:
"On the road again" A Street Workers Handbook
"Just Down the Road" A Drop-In Center Handbook
These booklets are the fruits of experiences and cooperation of Drug User Organisation in Asia and the Caribbean Islands. The handbooks are attempts to provide some guidance and principals that are crucial to working in the community with active drug user.
For more information and to place your order please contact: Pelangi Community Foundation at rai...@pelangifoundation.org.
> To all who are working with Drug User or are interested in issues on > Drug Use, Harm Reduction and HIV/AIDS. > Here, 2 new booklets are now for sale:
> "On the road again" A Street Workers Handbook
> "Just Down the Road" A Drop-In Center Handbook
> These booklets are the fruits of experiences and cooperation of Drug > User Organisation in Asia and the Caribbean Islands. > The handbooks are attempts to provide some guidance and principals that > are crucial to working in the community with active drug user.
> For more information and to place your order please contact: > Pelangi Community Foundation at rai...@pelangifoundation.org.
> Best wishes. > Rainer Rotthoff > Pelangi Community Foundation (www.pelangifoundation.org) > Malaysia
On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:23:47 GMT, "Srgnt Billko" <f...@blipl.net> wrote:
>There is no way we in AA can turn non-alcoholics into alcoholics and thus >qualify them for AA membership.
The individual doesn't need the we's or I's in aa to turn them from non-alcoholics to alcoholics in order for the individual to qualify for membership.
The individual decides if they are alcoholic and then becomes a member when they say they are a member.
I suppose someone that has never even taken a drink could see their potential for being alcoholic, thus declare themselves one and then declare themselves a member....come to think of it I think some actually do this nowadays.
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> There is no way we in AA can turn non-alcoholics into alcoholics > and thus > qualify them for AA membership.
Being alcoholic is no requirement in an organisation that stipulates categorically "3. The only requirement for A.A. membership is a desire to stop drinking." http://tinyurl.com/22833
Arguably, there are many instances of non alcoholic misfits, after being recruited into AA, starting to practice the negative, but attention getting, "yets" being taught at AA meetings.
One of my neighbours, recruited into A.A. at 19yo, who recently, now in his late fifties, claimed he drank methylated spirits merely to *prove* he is a real alcoholic, appears to be a classic example of self fulfilling prophecy type alcoholism.
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 13:23:47 GMT, "Srgnt Billko" <f...@blipl.net> > wrote:
> >There is no way we in AA can turn non-alcoholics into alcoholics and thus > >qualify them for AA membership.
> The individual doesn't need the we's or I's in aa to turn them from > non-alcoholics to alcoholics in order for the individual to qualify > for membership.
> The individual decides if they are alcoholic and then becomes a member > when they say they are a member.
Well Tom you've got part of the idea. But becomes a member of what ? That generalized statement that you are quoting isn't specific enough to explain that. Let me explain - AA is made up of groups. Therefore to be a "member" of AA one must be a member of a group. Sure being an alcoholic "qualifies" a person but is that all there is ? Are you a member of a group just because you say you are ? Theoretically maybe - but in practice nada. The time when "membership" is relevant is when your voice is heard - and that is when an informed group conscience is called for. And we're not talking a simple show of hands here - but the consensus of informed opinions - which incidently are **weighed**. So how much weight would I give the opinion of a parasite who just claims membership but doesn't accept any group responsibility - doesn't help set-up and clean-up, doesn't take group commitments, etc ? Not a hell-uv-a-lot !! But if the person just wants to claim membership to add to their resume - have at it. If they think they are going to just use an AA meeting as a dumping ground - not if I am the leader that day. Get the drift ?
> Well Tom you've got part of the idea. But becomes a member of what ? That > generalized statement that you are quoting isn't specific enough to explain > that. Let me explain - AA is made up of groups. Therefore to be a "member" > of AA one must be a member of a group. Sure being an alcoholic "qualifies" > a person but is that all there is ? Are you a member of a group just > because you say you are ? Theoretically maybe - but in practice nada. The > time when "membership" is relevant is when your voice is heard - and that is > when an informed group conscience is called for. And we're not talking a > simple show of hands here - but the consensus of informed opinions - which > incidently are **weighed**. So how much weight would I give the opinion of > a parasite who just claims membership but doesn't accept any group > responsibility - doesn't help set-up and clean-up, doesn't take group > commitments, etc ? Not a hell-uv-a-lot !! But if the person just wants > to claim membership to add to their resume - have at it. If they think they > are going to just use an AA meeting as a dumping ground - not if I am the > leader that day. Get the drift ?
Sounds like you've augmented the traditions a bit, Sarge. For our group the only qualification for membership is a desire to stop drinking -- and we don't even examine that too closely. Works for us.
> > There is no way we in AA can turn non-alcoholics into alcoholics > > and thus > > qualify them for AA membership.
> Being alcoholic is no requirement in an organisation that stipulates > categorically "3. The only requirement for A.A. membership is a > desire to stop drinking." <snip>
> Bob
Well Bob you've got part of the idea. But becomes a member of what ? That generalized statement that you are quoting isn't specific enough to explain that. Let me explain - AA is made up of groups. Therefore to be a "member" of AA one must be a member of a group. Sure being an alcoholic "qualifies" a person but is that all there is ? Are you a member of a group just because you say you are ? Theoretically maybe - but in practice nada. The time when "membership" is relevant is when your voice is heard - and that is when an informed group conscience is called for. And we're not talking a simple show of hands here - but the consensus of informed opinions - which incidently are **weighed**. So how much weight would I give the opinion of a parasite who just claims membership but doesn't accept any group responsibility - doesn't help set-up and clean-up, doesn't take group commitments, etc ? Not a hell-uv-a-lot !! But if the person just wants to claim membership to add to their resume - have at it. If they think they are going to just use an AA meeting as a dumping ground - not if I am the leader that day. Get the drift ? On the other hand, if some turkey participates in the group on a regular basis and *does* help with group responsibilities, I'll listen to his / her opinions - even if they are just there because they were raised on the wrong tit.
> Well Bob you've got part of the idea. But becomes a member of what ? That > generalized statement that you are quoting isn't specific enough to explain > that. Let me explain - AA is made up of groups. Therefore to be a "member" > of AA one must be a member of a group. Sure being an alcoholic "qualifies" > a person but is that all there is ? Are you a member of a group just > because you say you are ? Theoretically maybe - but in practice nada. The > time when "membership" is relevant is when your voice is heard - and that is > when an informed group conscience is called for. And we're not talking a > simple show of hands here - but the consensus of informed opinions - which > incidently are **weighed**. So how much weight would I give the opinion of > a parasite who just claims membership but doesn't accept any group > responsibility - doesn't help set-up and clean-up, doesn't take group > commitments, etc ? Not a hell-uv-a-lot !! But if the person just wants > to claim membership to add to their resume - have at it. If they think they > are going to just use an AA meeting as a dumping ground - not if I am the > leader that day. Get the drift ? On the other hand, if some turkey > participates in the group on a regular basis and *does* help with group > responsibilities, I'll listen to his / her opinions - even if they are just > there because they were raised on the wrong tit.
> "Srgnt Billko" <f...@blipl.net> wrote in message > news:RGB0e.448365$w62.213255@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > Well Tom you've got part of the idea. But becomes a member of what ? > That > > generalized statement that you are quoting isn't specific enough to > explain > > that. Let me explain - AA is made up of groups. Therefore to be a > "member" > > of AA one must be a member of a group. Sure being an alcoholic > "qualifies" > > a person but is that all there is ? Are you a member of a group just > > because you say you are ? Theoretically maybe - but in practice nada. > The > > time when "membership" is relevant is when your voice is heard - and that > is > > when an informed group conscience is called for. And we're not talking a > > simple show of hands here - but the consensus of informed opinions - which > > incidently are **weighed**. So how much weight would I give the opinion > of > > a parasite who just claims membership but doesn't accept any group > > responsibility - doesn't help set-up and clean-up, doesn't take group > > commitments, etc ? Not a hell-uv-a-lot !! But if the person just wants > > to claim membership to add to their resume - have at it. If they think > they > > are going to just use an AA meeting as a dumping ground - not if I am the > > leader that day. Get the drift ?
> Sounds like you've augmented the traditions a bit, Sarge. For our group the > only qualification for membership is a desire to stop drinking -- and we > don't even examine that too closely. Works for us. > Ted L.
Sounds like somebody either interpreted the Traditions either very loosely or just plain didn't try very hard to follow them. The old "works for us /me" story isn't one that I buy - for after all, it's for the good of AA and future alkies that is in question - noy just a single group or individual. btw, how well is it working for that group ? - how healthy is that group ?
> > Well Bob you've got part of the idea. But becomes a member of what ? > That > > generalized statement that you are quoting isn't specific enough to > explain > > that. Let me explain - AA is made up of groups. Therefore to be a > "member" > > of AA one must be a member of a group. Sure being an alcoholic > "qualifies" > > a person but is that all there is ? Are you a member of a group just > > because you say you are ? Theoretically maybe - but in practice nada. > The > > time when "membership" is relevant is when your voice is heard - and that > is > > when an informed group conscience is called for. And we're not talking a > > simple show of hands here - but the consensus of informed opinions - which > > incidently are **weighed**. So how much weight would I give the opinion > of > > a parasite who just claims membership but doesn't accept any group > > responsibility - doesn't help set-up and clean-up, doesn't take group > > commitments, etc ? Not a hell-uv-a-lot !! But if the person just wants > > to claim membership to add to their resume - have at it. If they think > they > > are going to just use an AA meeting as a dumping ground - not if I am the > > leader that day. Get the drift ? On the other hand, if some turkey > > participates in the group on a regular basis and *does* help with group > > responsibilities, I'll listen to his / her opinions - even if they are > just > > there because they were raised on the wrong tit.
> Do I hear an echo in here? > Ted L.
Yup - you did. McGregor's comment pretty much echoed Tom's - and it deserved (and got) pretty much the same response.
> Sounds like somebody either interpreted the Traditions either very loosely > or just plain didn't try very hard to follow them. The old "works for us > /me" story isn't one that I buy - for after all, it's for the good of AA and > future alkies that is in question - noy just a single group or individual. > btw, how well is it working for that group ? - how healthy is that group ?
I wouldn't know. We've never had an AA doctor give it a physical.
Seriously, I'd say it's quite healthy. It's been around for roughly 20 years and has a fairly stable attendance of 20-30 people, always a few new people and the rest stretching out to 20 or more years. Members from late teens to somewhere above 70, about a third women; a couple of straight "addicts", everyone else alcoholics; maybe half the people married, half divorced or single. Not much economic diversity and little ethnic diversity, but that's what you get in the suburbs. We do a little service work (answer phones, take a meeting to a detox/treatment facility) but mostly just attend to ourselves. Some have sponsors, some are sponsors, some not. We get together a handful of times socially during the year (attend a ballgame, go bowling, have a party.) Oh ya, it is a pure step/tradition group. I've outlined the format before. The only time we let people wing it is once a quarter when we have what we call the "open step."
> > Sounds like somebody either interpreted the Traditions either very loosely > > or just plain didn't try very hard to follow them. The old "works for us > > /me" story isn't one that I buy - for after all, it's for the good of AA > and > > future alkies that is in question - noy just a single group or individual. > > btw, how well is it working for that group ? - how healthy is that group ?
> I wouldn't know. We've never had an AA doctor give it a physical.
> Seriously, I'd say it's quite healthy. It's been around for roughly 20 > years and has a fairly stable attendance of 20-30 people, always a few new > people and the rest stretching out to 20 or more years. Members from late > teens to somewhere above 70, about a third women; a couple of straight > "addicts", everyone else alcoholics; maybe half the people married, half > divorced or single. Not much economic diversity and little ethnic > diversity, but that's what you get in the suburbs. We do a little service > work (answer phones, take a meeting to a detox/treatment facility) but > mostly just attend to ourselves. Some have sponsors, some are sponsors, > some not. We get together a handful of times socially during the year > (attend a ballgame, go bowling, have a party.) Oh ya, it is a pure > step/tradition group. I've outlined the format before. The only time we > let people wing it is once a quarter when we have what we call the "open > step."
> Works for us. > Ted L.
Sounds good so far. If I stop in am I likely to find a display of AA literature or will I just hear the program that "works for us" ? You didn't mention the 7th Tradition but my sense is that the group is "healthy" in that respect also. But it makes me think of something else - for another thread <chuckle> Keep up the "good works".
> Sounds good so far. If I stop in am I likely to find a display of AA > literature or will I just hear the program that "works for us" ? You didn't > mention the 7th Tradition but my sense is that the group is "healthy" in > that respect also. But it makes me think of something else - for another > thread <chuckle> > Keep up the "good works".
Oh, somewhere there is a display -- what we do for any newcomers is offer them a first step meeting, a newcomer packet and a big book and a ticket for the hooker raffle. OK, just kidding about the ticket. 7th tradition is fine. We even send off our benevolences to the district, state, and national coffers.
Srgnt Billko <f...@blipl.net> wrote: > It is misleading to hint or give the impression that AA solves marital > problems or knows what to do about addiction to crack or other drugs.
> There is no way we in AA can turn non-alcoholics into alcoholics and thus > qualify them for AA membership.
> <rai...@pelangifoundation.org> wrote in message > news:1111632769.926166.196570@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com... > > To all who are working with Drug User or are interested in issues on > > Drug Use, Harm Reduction and HIV/AIDS. > > Here, 2 new booklets are now for sale:
> > "On the road again" A Street Workers Handbook
> > "Just Down the Road" A Drop-In Center Handbook
> > These booklets are the fruits of experiences and cooperation of Drug > > User Organisation in Asia and the Caribbean Islands. > > The handbooks are attempts to provide some guidance and principals that > > are crucial to working in the community with active drug user.
> > For more information and to place your order please contact: > > Pelangi Community Foundation at rai...@pelangifoundation.org.
> > Best wishes. > > Rainer Rotthoff > > Pelangi Community Foundation (www.pelangifoundation.org) > > Malaysia
<TedL719nospample...@yahoo.com> wrote: > "Srgnt Billko" <f...@blipl.net> wrote in message > news:RGB0e.448365$w62.213255@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > Well Tom you've got part of the idea. But becomes a member of what ? > That > > generalized statement that you are quoting isn't specific enough to > explain > > that. Let me explain - AA is made up of groups. Therefore to be a > "member" > > of AA one must be a member of a group. Sure being an alcoholic > "qualifies" > > a person but is that all there is ? Are you a member of a group just > > because you say you are ? Theoretically maybe - but in practice nada. > The > > time when "membership" is relevant is when your voice is heard - and that > is > > when an informed group conscience is called for. And we're not talking a > > simple show of hands here - but the consensus of informed opinions - which > > incidently are **weighed**. So how much weight would I give the opinion > of > > a parasite who just claims membership but doesn't accept any group > > responsibility - doesn't help set-up and clean-up, doesn't take group > > commitments, etc ? Not a hell-uv-a-lot !! But if the person just wants > > to claim membership to add to their resume - have at it. If they think > they > > are going to just use an AA meeting as a dumping ground - not if I am the > > leader that day. Get the drift ?
> Sounds like you've augmented the traditions a bit, Sarge. For our group the > only qualification for membership is a desire to stop drinking -- and we > don't even examine that too closely. Works for us.
There are any number of folks who get together, wanting to present themselves as "AA groups" that simply do not match nor fulfill AA's definition of what an AA group is or does.
For that matter, there are any number of NA or Anything Anonymous groups pretending to be AA.
> > Sounds like somebody either interpreted the Traditions either very loosely > > or just plain didn't try very hard to follow them. The old "works for us > > /me" story isn't one that I buy - for after all, it's for the good of AA > and > > future alkies that is in question - noy just a single group or individual. > > btw, how well is it working for that group ? - how healthy is that group ?
> I wouldn't know. We've never had an AA doctor give it a physical.
> Seriously, I'd say it's quite healthy. It's been around for roughly 20 > years and has a fairly stable attendance of 20-30 people, always a few new > people and the rest stretching out to 20 or more years.
Stable attendance -- as in the same people? Well, despite the mere notion of anyone who ever shows up is a "member" it sounds as tbough the truer membership is more evident, if tacit and (for some reason) their nervous about admitting it.
> ...) Oh ya, it is a pure > step/tradition group. I've outlined the format before. The only time we > let people wing it is once a quarter when we have what we call the "open > step."
> Works for us.
Who is the "we" that "lets" anyone else do anything in particular or not? Probably the actual members of the group, eh?
> > There is no way we in AA can turn non-alcoholics into alcoholics > > and thus > > qualify them for AA membership.
> Being alcoholic is no requirement in an organisation that stipulates > categorically "3. The only requirement for A.A. membership is a > desire to stop drinking." http://tinyurl.com/22833
Except for clearly expressing that AA is for alcoholics elsewhere, including in the very name of the outift. It's so blatantly obvious that the subset of #3 is indubitably within that context. Of course, that doesn't stop any number of nuts and misguided folks from trying to argue their way out of that simple reality.
> On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:13:37 GMT, "Srgnt Billko" <f...@blipl.net> > wrote:
> >Well Tom you've got part of the idea. But becomes a member of what ? That > >generalized statement that you are quoting isn't specific enough to explain > >that. Let me explain - AA is made up of groups. Therefore to be a "member" > >of AA one must be a member of a group.
> FO Sarge. I don't belong to a group but I'm a member of AA.
> Best, > GaryE
And I'll bet you consider yourself a "good" member - and a member in "good standing" and entitled to have your opinions heard also.
In article <pig64198c37vpnsqo0h4bog10c4oigp...@4ax.com>, GaryE
<garyexxxnos...@nadaswbell.net> wrote: > On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 16:13:37 GMT, "Srgnt Billko" <f...@blipl.net> > wrote:
> >Well Tom you've got part of the idea. But becomes a member of what ? That > >generalized statement that you are quoting isn't specific enough to explain > >that. Let me explain - AA is made up of groups. Therefore to be a "member" > >of AA one must be a member of a group.
> FO Sarge. I don't belong to a group but I'm a member of AA.
Former and/or inactive member, in self-proclaimed status only, perhaps.
>> >There is no way we in AA can turn non-alcoholics into alcoholics and thus >> >qualify them for AA membership.
>> The individual doesn't need the we's or I's in aa to turn them from >> non-alcoholics to alcoholics in order for the individual to qualify >> for membership.
>> The individual decides if they are alcoholic and then becomes a member >> when they say they are a member.
>Well Tom you've got part of the idea. But becomes a member of what ? That >generalized statement that you are quoting isn't specific enough to explain >that. Let me explain - AA is made up of groups. Therefore to be a "member" >of AA one must be a member of a group.
Bullshit....pure too.
Sure being an alcoholic "qualifies"
>a person but is that all there is ? Are you a member of a group just >because you say you are ? Theoretically maybe - but in practice nada. The >time when "membership" is relevant is when your voice is heard - and that is >when an informed group conscience is called for. And we're not talking a >simple show of hands here - but the consensus of informed opinions - which >incidently are **weighed**. So how much weight would I give the opinion of >a parasite who just claims membership but doesn't accept any group >responsibility - doesn't help set-up and clean-up, doesn't take group >commitments, etc ? Not a hell-uv-a-lot !! But if the person just wants >to claim membership to add to their resume - have at it. If they think they >are going to just use an AA meeting as a dumping ground - not if I am the >leader that day. Get the drift ?
Drift...daft is more like it.
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> > >Well Tom you've got part of the idea. But becomes a member of what ? > That > > >generalized statement that you are quoting isn't specific enough to > explain > > >that. Let me explain - AA is made up of groups. Therefore to be a > "member" > > >of AA one must be a member of a group.
> > FO Sarge. I don't belong to a group but I'm a member of AA.
> > Best, > > GaryE
> And I'll bet you consider yourself a "good" member - and a member in "good > standing" and entitled to have your opinions heard also.
When do we start discussing "card carrying" AA membership and "proof" of membership?
In article <240320051448068329%neow...@sbcglobal.net>, Virtualoso
<neow...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > Stable attendance -- as in the same people? Well, despite the mere > notion of anyone who ever shows up is a "member" it sounds as tbough > the truer membership is more evident, if tacit and (for some reason) > their nervous about admitting it.
Although I don't get at all your point in the last half of this, stable means both in terms of number and the same people. Sure there's turnover, but there's a core of I'd say at least 15 if not more who have been there as long as I have, many longer.
> Who is the "we" that "lets" anyone else do anything in particular or > not? Probably the actual members of the group, eh?
I guess so. We do vote on various issues when they come up -- whoever's there gets to vote. But that happens very rarely.
>> > >Well Tom you've got part of the idea. But becomes a member of what ? >> That >> > >generalized statement that you are quoting isn't specific enough to >> explain >> > >that. Let me explain - AA is made up of groups. Therefore to be a >> "member" >> > >of AA one must be a member of a group.
>> > FO Sarge. I don't belong to a group but I'm a member of AA.
>> > Best, >> > GaryE
>> And I'll bet you consider yourself a "good" member - and a member in "good >> standing" and entitled to have your opinions heard also.
>When do we start discussing "card carrying" AA membership and "proof" of >membership?
>RonG
Membership packs: signal mirror, personalized coffee mug with motto, "Friend of Bill W." bumper sticker, stun gun (for uppity newcomers), decoder ring, endorsed copy of "Advanced Steps 12 - 24 *CONFIDENTIAL!*", personal breathalyser (relapse detection), cyanide capsule in case of critical anonymity breach, Dr. Bob's Book of Tired AA Slogans, industrial strength pocket sized shredder (for written step work/sponsor directives), re-usable suppositories (to encapsulate written resentments in before telling fellow members what do do with them), encrypted sponsor-phone (for emergency use only), egg timer (5 minute shares for others, 20 minutes for self), CODA pheremone drops, 2 month supply of SSRIs, emergency dime (for 7th traditions), diagram displaying exact loccations of own ass & elbows, another emergency dime (spur of the moment child support payments/9th step ammends)
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