No - don't get excited. I didn't mean government help directly to AA. Just that the NYS government inadvertently made me happy in regards to AA.
For a long time, I have been unhappy with the proliferation of raffles at AA meetings and seeming financial dependence on them. I have taken 'out of work' people to meetings and seen their discomfort when pushed at the door to buy raffle tickets. I have seen the energy spent on selling the tickets before the meeting while a newcomer is left to fend for himself. And I think the 7th Tradition says we are self supporting thru our own 'contributions' - not our own money making schemes.
I usually don't try to force my opinion on a group I am not a member of - but now the state helps me out. They have a big push on controlling raffles - requiring an application for non-profit elegibility, keeping the finances separate, etc. This should discourage raffles more than anything I could say or do.
I am usually against government controls - but in this case, I welcome it.
I agree (sort of). I am very liberal on how one chooses to apply the principles behind the steps to their life and individual recovery but I am probably overly stern on the traditions.
I'm with you in regards to newcomers coming second to selling anything after the meetings. I remember how scared I was the first few meetings. When no one reached out to me after three meetings, I, fortunately had the background to feel okay about introducing myself.
I've tried to make it my habit to introduce myself to newcomers... especially if they look promising and could add a feather to my sponsor cap!<G--sort of>
I know one Alano club that has $5. pancake feeds and bar-b-ques. I used to really look down on this and then one day I attended a *downtown* (read homeless) fellowship that had a big tray of sandwiches next to the coffee and in their announcements they thanked the other club for providing the *refreshments*.
I'm slowly coming around to extending my situational ethics philosophy to the traditions as well as my day to day decision making. I think the spirit of tradition seven (not getting indebted to institutions or govs and keeping our priorities straight) can probably served without being so uptight about the letter of the law..................but I'm still working on this.
I have recently retired from the national board of directors of another 12-Step fellowship mainly due to my rigidness about traditions. I don't think anyone was interpreting anything especially wrong.....just too liberal for where I am now.
But then I think it's horrible that we even know who Bill Wilson was. I'm so stuck on the literal.
One pet gripe I have is talking about bus trips to Reno and sober ski trips and other stuff that half the people in the meeting can't afford.....let alone their next meal! But that's not just AA. I have economic survivor's guilt.
aka Steve
On 1 Mar 1999 21:10:13 GMT, "Sergeant Bilko" <fwr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>>>No - don't get excited. I didn't mean government help directly to AA. >>>Just that the NYS government inadvertently made me happy in regards to AA.
>>>For a long time, I have been unhappy with the proliferation of raffles at AA >>>meetings and seeming financial dependence on them. I have taken 'out of >>>work' people to meetings and seen their discomfort when pushed at the door >>>to buy raffle tickets. I have seen the energy spent on selling the tickets >>>before the meeting while a newcomer is left to fend for himself. And I >>>think the 7th Tradition says we are self supporting thru our own >>>'contributions' - not our own money making schemes.
>>>I usually don't try to force my opinion on a group I am not a member of - >>>but now the state helps me out. They have a big push on controlling >>>raffles - requiring an application for non-profit elegibility, keeping the >>>finances separate, etc. This should discourage raffles more than anything >>>I could say or do.
>>>I am usually against government controls - but in this case, I welcome it.
>I am usually against government controls - but in this case, I welcome it.
Well, Sarge, I'm against government controls and in favor of self control on this one. I wouldn't want to see somebody selling raffle tickets at a meeting, but I suppose the group gets to decide. And I can always say, "Not for today," to the people selling them, or choose not to go back to that meeting. Every time we give an iota of freedom away, it goes away for good. It's all these "in this case" type arguments that have eroded our personal freedoms. So I'd rather be faced with some things I don't like than give the government the power to choose for me.
On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, Ken C. wrote: > Well, Sarge, I'm against government controls and in favor of self control > on this one. I wouldn't want to see somebody selling raffle tickets at a
I'd sooner the gummint banned smoking at meetings rather than worry about raffles. Mind you, the gummint did, indirectly, ban the hooker raffle at my home group.
On Mon, 1 Mar 1999, aka Steve wrote: > I'm with you in regards to newcomers coming second to selling anything
Never much of a problem in these parts. The only things sold at meetings are tickets to AA events, unless you count the stolen goods a couple of the lads in our fellowship used to flog at the Alano Club. Got a great deal on a winter parka once.
Sergeant Bilko wrote: > For a long time, I have been unhappy with the proliferation of raffles at AA > meetings and seeming financial dependence on them.
I've never seen fund raising in a meeting, other than announcements at the end of the meeting for alano club events. Are these raffles for actual meeting expenses? Which would be what? Rent? Coffee and cookies? Is rent high there?
Around here, meeting expenses are paid out of the Seventh Tradition basket. If they don't make rent on the first round, they pass it again. If that goes on for a while, they move to a cheaper location. In fact, I doubt anyone would participate in a raffle in a meeting here. -- Regards, Buddy
The local Alano Club here used to survive only on bingo proceeds and many people were glad when the city came down on bingo in much the way you describe the restrictions on raffles. Most fund raising seems to be centered around clubs and I think they are a major problem in new comers' perceptions of the fellowship. The clubs I have been exposed to are bars without booze and little more, except a convenient spot for certain unscrupulous AA members to try to take over new comers' lives in one way or another.
Buddy wrote in message <36DB78BC.C71E6...@earthlink.net>... >Sergeant Bilko wrote: >I've never seen fund raising in a meeting, other than >announcements at the end of the meeting for alano club events. >Are these raffles for actual meeting expenses? Which would be >what? Rent? Coffee and cookies? Is rent high there?
>Regards, >Buddy
The "rent" is not high at all. A couple groups meet in hospitals that don't take "rent" - one group feels that when it contributes literature to the hospital detox, that is the equivalent of their "rent". Some groups pay as little as $20 per month. I would guess $50 per month might be average - with a few doing $100 per month. The churches cannot "charge" "rent". If they do, it can interfere with their "not-for-profit" status. But there is generally an understood figure for a "donation" that is acceptable to both the group and the host.
I am not sure, but I believe most of the raffles are used to finance dances and elaborate group anniversaries. Unfortunately I have been to a number of meetings where I went in the entrance only to be blocked by a table with smiling faces asking me how many (raffle tickets) I wanted. That is the first vision of AA a newcomer would see. Another group had a "50-50" raffle each week - they would later pass the basket but it appeared that most who plunked down a buck for the raffle thought that was in lieu of the basket.
On 2 Mar 1999 13:28:09 GMT, "Sergeant Bilko" <fwr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I am not sure, but I believe most of the raffles are used to finance dances >and elaborate group anniversaries. Unfortunately I have been to a number >of meetings where I went in the entrance only to be blocked by a table with >smiling faces asking me how many (raffle tickets) I wanted. That is the >first vision of AA a newcomer would see. Another group had a "50-50" >raffle each week - they would later pass the basket but it appeared that >most who plunked down a buck for the raffle thought that was in lieu of the >basket.
IMO....this kind of thing would be acceptable, although sleazy and potentially hazardous, for a club, but is totally unacceptable for a group of Alcoholics Anonymous. It does affect other groups and the fellowship as a whole, by presenting a predatory and money-grubbing image to the public at large and the new drunk in particular.
I would not attend this group's meetings for long.
>The "rent" is not high at all. A couple groups meet in hospitals that >don't take "rent" - one group feels that when it contributes literature to >the hospital detox, that is the equivalent of their "rent". Some groups >pay as little as $20 per month. I would guess $50 per month might be >average - with a few doing $100 per month. The churches cannot "charge" >"rent". If they do, it can interfere with their "not-for-profit" status. >But there is generally an understood figure for a "donation" that is >acceptable to both the group and the host.
>I am not sure, but I believe most of the raffles are used to finance dances >and elaborate group anniversaries. Unfortunately I have been to a number >of meetings where I went in the entrance only to be blocked by a table with >smiling faces asking me how many (raffle tickets) I wanted. That is the >first vision of AA a newcomer would see. Another group had a "50-50" >raffle each week - they would later pass the basket but it appeared that >most who plunked down a buck for the raffle thought that was in lieu of the >basket.
In southern New England, a literature raffle is standard at most meetings. Tickets at $ .25 ea., 3/$ .50 and 7 / $1. I've been to a few groups that "hawk" the tickets, but most groups just have them at a table - and there's no pressure to buy them.
I can't speak for what other groups do, but my home group puts the proceeds in with the 7th Trad basket. After rent, coffee, literature, pamphlets, etc. are expensed, the remainder is divided amongst Central Service, the District, and the Area, with a twice-yearly donation to NY. We also provide meeting lists and some literature for some of the detoxes / halfway houses that we bring meetings into.
Do I agree with that dispersal of funds? Nope. But it's group conscience and I'm willing to abide by that. Personally, I think NY shouldn't get a red cent. The Area is about a half step behind them. Neither of those entities speak for the average AA member - matters are determined using an elaborate system of committees that serves to camouflage the few who hold the "power".
Central Office and the District are a lot closer to the realities of carrying our message - they do the nitty gritty scut work and I'm willing to do whatever I can to help in their task
In article <36dbfbe6.7045...@news.diac.com>, mo...@diac.com (Martha
Brummett) wrote:
> IMO....this kind of thing would be acceptable, although sleazy and > potentially hazardous, for a club, but is totally unacceptable for a > group of Alcoholics Anonymous. It does affect other groups and the > fellowship as a whole, by presenting a predatory and money-grubbing > image to the public at large and the new drunk in particular.
> I would not attend this group's meetings for long.
> Martha B. > Denver CO > 10/3/83
I haven't seen too many raffles on the west coast, but in Maine they were pretty much a fact of life. In one way they served the purpose of getting literature out to newcomers. Other meetings raffled bumper stickers and "non-AA" materials, which kept the raffle to merely a fundraising enterprise.
I don't much care for them myself. I see too many groups get caught up in feeling responsible to pay their own expenses. in addition to supporting Intergroup, the District, Area, and New York. I say support the group and Intergroup first, then send $ to District, Area, and finally NY *if* and only if there is any money left over. My experiences with Area have not been all that positive and Personally I cannot see supporting any "service" entities beyond the local ones.
On Mon, 1 Mar 1999 20:21:47 -0700, Lech wrote: >I'd sooner the gummint banned smoking at meetings rather than worry about >raffles. Mind you, the gummint did, indirectly, ban the hooker raffle at >my home group.
Now THAT must have caused some AA's to go get drunk! <lol>
I don't suppose we could go back to the government just providing services without interfering too much in our lives? It probably won't happen while the Republicrats are in office <G>.
Sergeant Bilko wrote: > I am not sure, but I believe most of the raffles are used to finance dances > and elaborate group anniversaries.
This is all quite interesting. I don't think groups have group anniversaries here. I've never heard of it, anyway.
As far as I know, only alano clubs organize dances and barbecues, here. Meetings held at alano clubs will announce the events, but the tickets are sold at the counter in the "club" area.
Offhand, though, I can't see that it actually violates the Traditions. It could get annoying, I'm sure. Things like that don't usually bother me because I'm great at saying no to people. I have it down to an art. LOL.
Kimba wrote: > In southern New England, a literature raffle is standard at most > meetings. Tickets at $ .25 ea., 3/$ .50 and 7 / $1. I've been to a > few groups that "hawk" the tickets, but most groups just have them at > a table - and there's no pressure to buy them.
What is a "literature raffle"? Do you mean that they sell 25c chances to win a Big Book or a 12&12? -- Regards, Buddy
On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 23:19:05 -0800, Buddy <budd...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Kimba wrote: >> In southern New England, a literature raffle is standard at most >> meetings. Tickets at $ .25 ea., 3/$ .50 and 7 / $1. I've been to a >> few groups that "hawk" the tickets, but most groups just have them at >> a table - and there's no pressure to buy them.
>What is a "literature raffle"? Do you mean that they sell 25c >chances to win a Big Book or a 12&12? >--
Yes.
And the winner of the book usually gives it away to a newcomer.
It's how I got my first big book, and all the rest of the books as well.
I think the whole thing was constructed as a way to keep the literature in circulation and available to those who couldn't afford to buy it.
In article <gmhague-0203991740580...@pool-207-205-175-126.snfr.grid.net>,
gmha...@mindspring.com (Grace) wrote: >I haven't seen too many raffles on the west coast, but in Maine they were >pretty much a fact of life. In one way they served the purpose of getting >literature out to newcomers. Other meetings raffled bumper stickers and >"non-AA" materials, which kept the raffle to merely a fundraising >enterprise.
I never came across any raffles in LA myself. Here in Boston the only ones i have exprerienced give away a big book at the end of the meeting. the tickets they give away for free at the door as you come in.
In article <36DCE269.8B75...@earthlink.net>, Buddy <budd...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>What is a "literature raffle"? Do you mean that they sell 25c >chances to win a Big Book or a 12&12?
The ones here don't charge for the raffle. They just give away a ticket as you walk in the door, and at the end of the meeting they pull a number out of the hat and whoever wins gets a big Book.
I read an interesting Booklet called "our group conscience" that was a summary and detail of those commitees and how they voted or did not vote and how the money was spent. I thought it was a pretty good accounting.
/s/ Knife - trusted servant
Kimba wrote:
> Do I agree with that dispersal of funds? Nope. But it's group > conscience and I'm willing to abide by that. Personally, I think NY > shouldn't get a red cent. The Area is about a half step behind them. > Neither of those entities speak for the average AA member - matters > are determined using an elaborate system of committees that serves to > camouflage the few who hold the "power".
Around this neck of the woods, I only know of one group that holds a raffle. This group meets once a month for at a breakfast for which the tickets are sold in advance. The price of the ticket which is $9.00 covers the cost of the foodservice and room rental at the hall where the banquet is served. There is a raffle table at the door where tickets are sold to benefit the group's other expenses, literature, etc. Usually this opens at 9:00 am for coffee, 9:30 for breakfast and the meeting starts at 10:30. the raffle is pulled during the breakfast, and the basket is not passed at the meeting. It is announced at most of the meetings in the area that tickets are available for this breakfast and that the meeting is after the breakfast and is an open meeting this is the only situation I feel that a raffle is appropriate, because the meeting is held after the raffle is drawn
Sergeant Bilko wrote in message <7bevnl$...@bgtnsc01.worldnet.att.net>... >No - don't get excited. I didn't mean government help directly to AA. >Just that the NYS government inadvertently made me happy in regards to AA.
>For a long time, I have been unhappy with the proliferation of raffles at AA >meetings and seeming financial dependence on them. I have taken 'out of >work' people to meetings and seen their discomfort when pushed at the door >to buy raffle tickets. I have seen the energy spent on selling the tickets >before the meeting while a newcomer is left to fend for himself. And I >think the 7th Tradition says we are self supporting thru our own >'contributions' - not our own money making schemes.
>I usually don't try to force my opinion on a group I am not a member of - >but now the state helps me out. They have a big push on controlling >raffles - requiring an application for non-profit elegibility, keeping the >finances separate, etc. This should discourage raffles more than anything >I could say or do.
>I am usually against government controls - but in this case, I welcome it.
> On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 23:19:05 -0800, Buddy <budd...@earthlink.net> > wrote:
> >Kimba wrote: > >> In southern New England, a literature raffle is standard at most > >> meetings. Tickets at $ .25 ea., 3/$ .50 and 7 / $1. I've been to a > >> few groups that "hawk" the tickets, but most groups just have them at > >> a table - and there's no pressure to buy them.
> >What is a "literature raffle"? Do you mean that they sell 25c > >chances to win a Big Book or a 12&12? > >-- > Yes.
> And the winner of the book usually gives it away to a newcomer.
> It's how I got my first big book, and all the rest of the books as > well.
> I think the whole thing was constructed as a way to keep the > literature in circulation and available to those who couldn't afford > to buy it.
> Kimba
My homegroup has literature raffles, and we also have 50/50 raffles. In the 50/50, people get three tickets for a dollar. Whoever wins gets half of the money collected from ticket sales. The other half goes towards expenses at the hall.
Brenda K Gibson wrote in message <7bl1nl$lj...@news-1.news.gte.net>... >Around this neck of the woods, I only know of one group that holds a raffle. >This group meets once a month for at a breakfast for which the tickets are >sold in advance. The price of the ticket which is $9.00 covers the cost of >the foodservice and room rental at the hall where the banquet is served. >There is a raffle table at the door where tickets are sold to benefit the >group's other expenses, literature, etc. Usually this opens at 9:00 am for >coffee, 9:30 for breakfast and the meeting starts at 10:30. the raffle is >pulled during the breakfast, and the basket is not passed at the meeting. >It is announced at most of the meetings in the area that tickets are >available for this breakfast and that the meeting is after the breakfast and >is an open meeting this is the only situation I feel that a raffle is >appropriate, because the meeting is held after the raffle is drawn
personally I don't have a problem with raffles to raise funds. But for those who do, what difference would it make if the raffle were before, during or after the meeting? If the money raised is still going to the same place?
Mollypup wrote in message <7bl58e$ii...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>... >In article <36dd22b8.1390...@netnews.worldnet.att.net>, > kimbagoligh...@worldnet.att.net (Kimba) wrote: >> On Tue, 02 Mar 1999 23:19:05 -0800, Buddy <budd...@earthlink.net> >> wrote:
>> >Kimba wrote: >> >> In southern New England, a literature raffle is standard at most >> >> meetings. Tickets at $ .25 ea., 3/$ .50 and 7 / $1. I've been to a >> >> few groups that "hawk" the tickets, but most groups just have them at >> >> a table - and there's no pressure to buy them.
>> >What is a "literature raffle"? Do you mean that they sell 25c >> >chances to win a Big Book or a 12&12? >> >-- >> Yes.
>> And the winner of the book usually gives it away to a newcomer.
>> It's how I got my first big book, and all the rest of the books as >> well.
>> I think the whole thing was constructed as a way to keep the >> literature in circulation and available to those who couldn't afford >> to buy it.
>> Kimba
>My homegroup has literature raffles, and we also have 50/50 raffles. In the >50/50, people get three tickets for a dollar. Whoever wins gets half of the >money collected from ticket sales. The other half goes towards expenses at >the hall.
literature raffles are cool. But I won't participate in cash raffles. If a group wants to use one, and I have seen several do it, they are more than welcome to it. I just hope that you don't see any of the stealing that I have seen because of these cash raffles.
> literature raffles are cool. But I won't participate in cash raffles. If a > group wants to use one, and I have seen several do it, they are more than > welcome to it. I just hope that you don't see any of the stealing that I > have seen because of these cash raffles.
> Derek M.
No, I have not seen any stealing because of it. Actually, right now, I am the one selling the tickets and collecting the money. I would not steal anything from anyone. I couldn't. One thing I *do* do is count the money (quietly) towards the end of the meeting, but during the meeting, so that any cash I handle is in front of the entire group and no one can question what is going on.
> One thing I *do* do is count the money (quietly) > towards the end of the meeting, but during the meeting, so that any cash I > handle is in front of the entire group and no one can question what is going > on.
It is funny to watch how people count and make change for themselves. A lot make sure anyone who wants to see can see. I feel the same way/ do the same thing, but I am treasurer and handle scads of the groups money. I count it in a very unseemly fashion. On the bed, on the table, on a desk. I count it quick and if it is off a dime I lie to myself and say I don't care. (I do care, but I have learned I am powerless over mis-counted envelopes!)
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