I live in a large metropolitan area where the "purist" have successfully rammed through a motion to remove all Mens and Womens group listings from the published meeting book.. They have reasoned that these are "special interest" groups and have no place in an AA published list of meetings, and the listing of such meetings is a violation of the Traditions. What I would like to know: "Is there any other areas in North America that subscribe to this convoluted interpretation of the 12 Traditions?" (They have also removed all gay listings and one listing that calls itself a "Trans-Gender Group".)
-Guy
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
> I live in a large metropolitan area where the "purist" have successfully > rammed through a motion to remove all Mens and Womens group listings from the > published meeting book.. > They have reasoned that these are "special interest" > groups and have no place in an AA published list of meetings, and the > listing of such meetings is a violation of the Traditions. > What I would like > to know: "Is there any other areas in North America that subscribe to this > convoluted interpretation of the 12 Traditions?" (They have also removed all > gay listings and one listing that calls itself a "Trans-Gender Group".)
> -Guy
OUR "COMMON BOND" IS ALCOHOL. (period)
We are people who normally would not mix. - p17
The feeling of having shared in a common peril is one element in the powerful cement which binds us. - p17
Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. -- preamble
KEEP IT IN!... Mens and Womens group listings
.............violation of the Traditions
A.A. TRADITION 1 Our common welfare.........
A.A. TRADITION 4 Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or A.A. as a whole.
A.A. TRADITION 5 Each group has but one primary purpose-to carry its message to the alcoholic who still suffers.
what violation??
THANKS FOR THE WARNING! .............gay listings
AGAIN, OUR "COMMON BOND" IS ALCOHOL. (period)
we need to have a listing for "BAD HOUSE PAINTERS" also...!!
it's the jitter joints 'mumbo-jumbo" seeping into the fellowship.....
<guyas...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:7mjqp6$657$1@nnrp1.deja.com... > I live in a large metropolitan area where the "purist" have successfully > rammed through a motion to remove all Mens and Womens group listings from the > published meeting book.. They have reasoned that these are "special interest" > groups and have no place in an AA published list of meetings, and the > listing of such meetings is a violation of the Traditions. What I would like > to know: "Is there any other areas in North America that subscribe to this > convoluted interpretation of the 12 Traditions?" (They have also removed all > gay listings and one listing that calls itself a "Trans-Gender Group".)
> -Guy
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ > Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Well, these types of meetings exist all over the country as well as all over the planet. Have been for years. They should pool their resources and print their own meeting lists. They could also simply omit the special needs descriptions from the list itself and be sure to post them on the door so that people can see them when they enter the meeting.
> > I live in a large metropolitan area where the "purist" have successfully > > rammed through a motion to remove all Mens and Womens group listings from the > > published meeting book..
> > They have reasoned that these are "special interest" > > groups and have no place in an AA published list of meetings, and the > > listing of such meetings is a violation of the Traditions.
> > What I would like > > to know: "Is there any other areas in North America that subscribe to this > > convoluted interpretation of the 12 Traditions?" (They have also removed all > > gay listings and one listing that calls itself a "Trans-Gender Group".)
> > -Guy
> OUR "COMMON BOND" IS ALCOHOL. (period)
> We are people who normally would not mix. - p17
> The feeling of having shared in a common peril is one element in the > powerful cement which binds us. - p17
> Alcoholics Anonymous is a fellowship of men and women who share their > experience, strength and hope with each other that they may solve their > common problem and help others to recover from alcoholism. -- preamble
> KEEP IT IN!... Mens and Womens group listings
> .............violation of the Traditions
false.
> A.A. TRADITION 1 > Our common welfare.........
unity is not conformity
> A.A. TRADITION 4 > Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups > or A.A. as a whole.
> A.A. TRADITION 5 > Each group has but one primary purpose-to carry its message to the > alcoholic who still suffers.
each group is also encourage to carry the message in the best way they can to their local community.
> what violation??
> THANKS FOR THE WARNING! .............gay listings
> AGAIN, OUR "COMMON BOND" IS ALCOHOL. (period)
that common bond does not overcome the newcomer homosexual's fear of gay bashing nor does it overcome the homophobe's desire to gay bash. In some places in the USA and other countries it simply is still not safe to be out amongst straights.
> we need to have a listing for "BAD HOUSE PAINTERS" also...!!
in Holywood there are meetings that you can only attend if you are invited to. Why? Because they consist primarily of celebrities. Should we stop these meetings?
> it's the jitter joints 'mumbo-jumbo" seeping into the fellowship.....
> In article <7mjqp6$65...@nnrp1.deja.com>, guyas...@my-deja.com wrote:
> > I live in a large metropolitan area where the "purist" have successfully > > rammed through a motion to remove all Mens and Womens group listings from the > > published meeting book.. They have reasoned that these are "special interest" > > groups and have no place in an AA published list of meetings, and the > > listing of such meetings is a violation of the Traditions. What I would like > > to know: "Is there any other areas in North America that subscribe to this > > convoluted interpretation of the 12 Traditions?" (They have also removed all > > gay listings and one listing that calls itself a "Trans-Gender Group".)
> The Primary Purpose is about alcoholics. The Big Book rightly cites that > there are too many "kinds" of alcoholic to definitively classify them all. > Nor much point in doing so.
> So, just all alcoholics is the practical basis. And, if looking for what's > in common among alcoholics, rather than what's different, then why hold any > certain special differences as necessary for their own special > identity/meetings/etc.?
> People that want to come together on some other basis can do so. But that's > not what "AA" has ever really been about. Doesn't argue against any of that > elsewhere, either.
> > A.A. TRADITION 1 > > Our common welfare.........
> unity is not conformity
focusing on our differences isnt unity.
> > A.A. TRADITION 4 > > Each group should be autonomous except in matters affecting other groups > > or A.A. as a whole.
> > A.A. TRADITION 5 > > Each group has but one primary purpose-to carry its message to the > > alcoholic who still suffers.
> each group is also encourage to carry the message in the best way they can > to their local community.
true.... i guess meetings at which all are welcome are not sufficient.
> > what violation??
> > THANKS FOR THE WARNING! .............gay listings
> > AGAIN, OUR "COMMON BOND" IS ALCOHOL. (period)
> that common bond does not overcome the newcomer homosexual's fear of gay > bashing nor does it overcome the homophobe's desire to gay bash. In some > places in the USA and other countries it simply is still not safe to be out > amongst straights.
how do they know a person is gay?
> > we need to have a listing for "BAD HOUSE PAINTERS" also...!!
> in Holywood there are meetings that you can only attend if you are invited > to. Why? Because they consist primarily of celebrities. Should we stop > these meetings?
theyre not fellowship meetings, theyre outside issue meetings. money, property, and PRESTIGE... celebreties anon....
we all have a part in placing others on pedastals.. the adulated and adulator share the responsibility...
> > it's the jitter joints 'mumbo-jumbo" seeping into the fellowship.....
> ignorance serves no one.
and we seem to want to have our differences serve ourselves.
guyas...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7mjqp6$65...@nnrp1.deja.com>... >I live in a large metropolitan area where the "purist" have successfully >rammed through a motion to remove all Mens and Womens group listings from the >published meeting book..
Congratulations to all the responsible members in your *large metropolitan area*.
Derek M. wrote in message <7mjtr2$mk...@nntp9.atl.mindspring.net>...
>Well, these types of meetings (special interest) exist all over the country ......... > They could also simply omit the special >needs descriptions from the list itself
We differentiate between *special interest* and *special needs*.
*Special needs* is used to refer to disabilities such as hearing impaired, wheel cahir bound, sight impaired, etc. Most AA communities are working hard to try to accomodate the needs of these members.
*Special interests* is used to refer to members who believe their needs are unique in that their gender or affiliation requires separate meetings.
>I live in a large metropolitan area where the "purist" have successfully >rammed through a motion to remove all Mens and Womens group listings from the >published meeting book.. They have reasoned that these are "special interest" > groups and have no place in an AA published list of meetings, and the >listing of such meetings is a violation of the Traditions. What I would like >to know: "Is there any other areas in North America that subscribe to this >convoluted interpretation of the 12 Traditions?" (They have also removed all >gay listings and one listing that calls itself a "Trans-Gender Group".)
>-Guy
Geez, Guy...this is a good example of why we need to be involved in macro-service work, to keep crap like that from happening. I get the icky feeling that a "book-burning" has just occurred where you live. I wonder what they thought removing them would really accomplish...somehow I think I'd refuse to go to the "comglommerate" groups just b/c I'm an alkie and someone told me I couldn't go to a gay or women's meeting. Just on principle I'd make damned sure these meetings could still exist if people want them. I tend not go to sun-set meetings often, but who the f*** are these idiots to tell me these meetings can't be a part of the recovering AA community??
Thanks for telling us about this...
Julie "No man really becomes a fool until he stops asking questions." --Charles Steinmetz
>>THANKS FOR THE WARNING! .............gay listings >Have I told you how very offensive I find your remarks?
>I didn't think I had.
>Kimba
>He that doesn't love himself will find plenty who feel the same way. > ---GaryE, The Philosopher King
Why Kimba, I'm shocked at your response. <tsk tsk> Don't you believe the poor boy deserves to know that we not only recruit new homosexuals, but we also perform monthly male virgin sacrifices at our meetings?
Julie "No man really becomes a fool until he stops asking questions." --Charles Steinmetz
>> ...it really *is* difficult to get an accurate picture of >> what AA represents, when "word of mouth" is what we must rely on.
>That's what the Big Book and other publications are for. So that we don't >have to rely on only word of mouth.
Bit simplistic there, dontcha think? Seems most people who just walk in the door can hardly focus their eyes, much less read the BB.
>> It really is >> a "simple" program but some of the codswallop that wormed its way into >meetings >> sure can toss a turd in the punchbowl.
>Don't see that it does much good to put down the other alkies that go to AA >meetings.
And you construe this as my "putting them down"? Seems I was disagreeing with what is said (specifically the items Jeff C. identified), not personally attacking the other members. To thine own inventory, be true.
>I always figured, if I want to see anyone there doing any certain thing (or >not) then I can assign myself to it.
And that's all well and good once you've been around long enough to discern that. The newcomer has more to wade through than we do.
Julie
"No man really becomes a fool until he stops asking questions." --Charles Steinmetz
>*Special interests* is used to refer to members who believe their needs are >unique in that their gender or affiliation requires separate meetings.
>Sarge
I see that as "desires separate meetings", not "requires" (i.e., all it takes is a resentment and a coffee pot). And none of these meetings that I've ever encountered has ever "excluded" anyone (note *that I've encountered* --- no doubt someone has a horrid tale of exclusion out there, God knows I have a few of my own). I recall a "women's meeting" where a man came b/c that was the only one in walking distance and he was only visiting the area. It was absolutely no problem and he was given a very warm welcome.
Hell, for this "special interest" thread, let's just toss "non-smoking" meetings out, too, make 'em all cesspool, smoke-filled emphysema dens. Afterall, majority rules, does it not?????? (Sorry folks, but this control queen crap does drive me up the proverbial wall.)
Julie
"No man really becomes a fool until he stops asking questions." --Charles Steinmetz
> I tend not go to sun-set >meetings often, but who the f*** are these idiots to tell me these meetings >can't be a part of the recovering AA community??
>Thanks for telling us about this...
>Julie
Sorry, gang, should read "sub-set", not "sun-set" meetings. Oh, but I guess now we'll have a Conference Approved Meeting Time for that matter..."All meetings must be held at 8:30 pm, just like our Founders did, or IT'S NOT AA."
JHC on a popsicle stick, how 'bout focusing on carrying the %$*^@& message??!!!!
<fume> <steam>
Julie "No man really becomes a fool until he stops asking questions." --Charles Steinmetz
Julie wrote in message <19990715084014.17894.00000...@ng-fi1.aol.com>... >>snip
>>>THANKS FOR THE WARNING! .............gay listings >>Have I told you how very offensive I find your remarks?
>>I didn't think I had.
>>Kimba
>>He that doesn't love himself will find plenty who feel the same way. >> ---GaryE, The Philosopher King
>Why Kimba, I'm shocked at your response. <tsk tsk> Don't you believe the poor >boy deserves to know that we not only recruit new homosexuals, but we also >perform monthly male virgin sacrifices at our meetings?
>Julie >"No man really becomes a fool until he stops asking questions." --Charles >Steinmetz
guy wrote: >I live in a large metropolitan area where the "purist" have successfully >rammed through a motion to remove all Mens and Womens group listings from the >published meeting book.. They have reasoned that these are "special interest" > groups and have no place in an AA published list of meetings, and the >listing of such meetings is a violation of the Traditions. What I would like >to know: "Is there any other areas in North America that subscribe to this >convoluted interpretation of the 12 Traditions?" (They have also removed all >gay listings and one listing that calls itself a "Trans-Gender Group".)
>-Guy
Some years back I was involved with a NA regional literature committee....and since our Regional Service Office folded due to mismanagement of funds, we were asked to re-establish a regional meeting list that had gone down the tubes with the RSO.
Needless to say, the subject of what to do with "special interest" meetings drew much heated discussion even from our very small subcommittee. We finally settled on listing the groups in the directory...However, we included a disclaimer under the legend that said, "Any addict is welcome at any meeting, regardless of how it is listed." Our logic was that while a meeting might be made up largely of people who have a "common" interest, no addict seeking recovery should be turned away from any NA meeting.
Groups that objected to the disclaimer had the option of not being listed in the directory. None took that option. How do the individual groups deal with any effects of this disclaimer? I have only ever heard of one group complaining, and it seems this had more to do with personality conflicts surrounding this group.....I think, for the most part, no one would *want* to turn away *anyone* who needed a meeting, regardless of whether they fit the discription of the "special" or "common" interest or not.....
Bette C., OSG bette needs a meeting like matthew needs a sponsor -M-
Julie wrote: >we also perform monthly male virgin sacrifices at our >meetings?
Uhm, Julie, where do you find a virgin male alcoholic?
(I do appreciate the men-only, women-only listings, however. It means I can avoid the men-only groups. You've never heard what a group degenerates into when no women happen to show up!)
In article <7mkjoc$nh...@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, "Sergeant Bilko"
<fwr...@worldnet.att.net> wrote: > guyas...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7mjqp6$65...@nnrp1.deja.com>... > >I live in a large metropolitan area where the "purist" have successfully > >rammed through a motion to remove all Mens and Womens group listings from > the > >published meeting book..
> Congratulations to all the responsible members in your *large metropolitan > area*.
> Sarge
And my condolences to you for having a bunch of bleeding deacons running the asylum. I go to a women's meeting regularly and believe that its important that they exist. I often meet new women who don't feel comfortable at mixed meetings - for very legitimate reasons, including not wanting to be distracted by men, fear of getting hit on, etc. SO now the AA stormtroopers claim that peoples' comfort zones aren't valid? Sheesh. So what's next?
Julie wrote in message <19990715092556.15885.00000...@ng-ch1.aol.com>... ><first cup of coffee accident> >> I tend not go to sun-set >>meetings often, but who the f*** are these idiots to tell me these meetings >>can't be a part of the recovering AA community??
>>Thanks for telling us about this...
>>Julie
>Sorry, gang, should read "sub-set", not "sun-set" meetings. Oh, but I guess now >we'll have a Conference Approved Meeting Time for that matter..."All meetings >must be held at 8:30 pm, just like our Founders did, or IT'S NOT AA."
>JHC on a popsicle stick, how 'bout focusing on carrying the %$*^@& >message??!!!!
><fume> <steam>
>Julie >"No man really becomes a fool until he stops asking questions." --Charles >Steinmetz
> I live in a large metropolitan area where the "purist" have successfully > rammed through a motion to remove all Mens and Womens group listings from the > published meeting book.. They have reasoned that these are "special interest"
I know of none in North America. The closest thing I have seen to it was some years ago when some outraged AA'ers tried to get my home group delisted because they held hooker raffles. It's still listed, although the hooker raffles were cancelled.
When I lived in France 15 years ago there were no special interest groups. It was thus partly because there were only a couple of hundred small groups in the whole country. But the French, including the women I asked, also thought the whole idea of different meetings for men and women was kinda weird. In the UK at the time, I never found a women's meeting either. Asked people in London, and they told me that someone would try to start one up every couple of years. It never lasted more than a few months as people drifted back to refular meetings. Any of the Brits know if this situation has changed?
>some years ago when some outraged AA'ers tried to get my home group >delisted because they held hooker raffles. It's still listed, although >the hooker raffles were cancelled
Hooker raffles are still held here in many of the French groups. The deal is that you keep your pants on for two years and then a raffle is held and the two year celebrant is taken out to get his gears oiled by a professional sex-trade worker (NB- we are not permitted to use the word "hooker" in Quebec). We english speaking Protestants are too tight assed to do anything like this. Jimb
>>we also perform monthly male virgin sacrifices at our >>meetings?
>Uhm, Julie, where do you find a virgin male alcoholic?
<snip>
Um...Ted...Joe...think about the many ways a man could be "a virgin"...dang, see what happens when I try to be subtle in a troll?? Guess I'll have to be more explicit in warning about gay meetings who recruit male virgins for sacrificial offerings. You boys have been warned now...
Julie (only 5 more people to recruit before I get my toaster oven!) "The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands." --Robert M. Pirsig
guyas...@my-deja.com wrote in message <7mjqp6$65...@nnrp1.deja.com>... >I live in a large metropolitan area where the "purist" have successfully >rammed through a motion to remove all Mens and Womens group listings from the >published meeting book..
From a historical perspective, this may help. The first "special interest" group was a seamens group in N.Y. This started in 1944. They reasoned that the life of a seaman made them "different." They had their own club house and even wrote their own literature with their interpretation of the program cofified into 6 Steps for Seamen. There was no resistance from the fellowship as people understood that they had the right to be wrong. The only type of groups that the Gen. Ser. Conf. has issued advisory actions on are Couples Groups (A.A.'s and spouses) and Alcohol and Pill Groups (dual addiction). Special Interest groups serve a purpose if they are used as a stepping stone to mainstream A.A. if not the tend to blow themselves out. Jimb
>There was no resistance from >the fellowship as people understood that they had the right to be wrong.
Interesting tid-bit there, Jim, thanks. And if they're sober, who's to say they're "wrong"? Maybe they're just not "AA"...
Can recovery be recovery and not AA? I say absolutely yes. Should "other" recovery groups list any and all recovery meetings, AA, and non-AA? It would be a good thing. Seems to me the overarching goal here is to help people get and stay sober. Should I ever get enough motivation to start a recovery group, I personally would list every and any possible recovery-oriented group out there in any pamphlet I had anything to do with, which is, incidentally, what I do when I encounter anyone with an alcohol problem. Isn't that the purpose of "carrying the message"? Does it have to be a "Strictly Codified and Conference-Approved AA-Only Message"?
Julie "The place to improve the world is first in one's own heart and head and hands." --Robert M. Pirsig
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