I went into Waterstones is Bradford today, to find out what the Russian flag looked like (long story). As I was in there, I decided to have a bit of a browse, and came across a couple of books that looked like they could be good. They were "Space Captain Smith" and "God Emperor of Didcot", and if the blurb is anything to go by, they're rather silly crosses between Flashman and Bill the Galactic Hero. Since money is a bit tight right now, can anyone tell me if they're worth saving up for?
On Thu, 15 Oct 2009 17:41:34 +0100, Sabremeister Brian
<bpwakel...@hotmail.com> wrote: >I went into Waterstones is Bradford today, to find out what the >Russian flag looked like (long story). As I was in there, I >decided to have a bit of a browse, and came across a couple of >books that looked like they could be good. They were "Space >Captain Smith" and "God Emperor of Didcot", and if the blurb is >anything to go by, they're rather silly crosses between Flashman >and Bill the Galactic Hero. Since money is a bit tight right now, >can anyone tell me if they're worth saving up for?
Toby Frost? Nice bloke, good sense of humour, fantastic dress sense :-)
Having had a few bits read by the author, I'd say they're worth a giggle. Nothing outstandingly amazing, but I've read a lot worse (Piers Anthony, I'm looking at you)
-- Andy Brown There's more than one way to skin a cat. Number 15: Krazy Glue and a toothbrush.
"Sabremeister Brian" <bpwakel...@hotmail.com> wrote: > I went into Waterstones is Bradford today, to find out what the > Russian flag looked like (long story).
No idea about the books, but... do tell. I can't imagine why one would have to go into Waterstones to find out that the Russian flag is (literally) the Dutch flag rearranged, and IMWTK.
>> I went into Waterstones is Bradford today, to find out what the >> Russian flag looked like (long story).
> No idea about the books, but... do tell. I can't imagine why > one would have to go into Waterstones to find out that the > Russian flag is (literally) the Dutch flag rearranged, and > IMWTK.
> Richard
As a prop for a short play we were doing at sacar, we were drawing a world map, and we had decorated it with a few things to fill in some of those annoying blank bits where all the water is. One of the things was a Russian flag, and I knew it was white, blue and red, but not in which order they went. So at lunchtime I went to Waterstones to find an atlas or an encyclopedia or a book of flags to find out.
Although I would use "Enquiring". -- Brian Howlett - Email to From: address deleted unseen ----------------------------------------------------- "Pride is all very well, but a sausage is a sausage" The Famous Gaspode, Men at Arms, Terry Pratchett
Richard Bos wrote: > "Sabremeister Brian" <bpwakel...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I went into Waterstones is Bradford today, to find out what the > > Russian flag looked like (long story).
> No idea about the books, but... do tell. I can't imagine why one would > have to go into Waterstones to find out that the Russian flag is > (literally) the Dutch flag rearranged, and IMWTK.
The Slovak flag used to look like that while Slovakia was part of Czechoslovakia and Russia was part of the Soviet union. At the time of the division of the Czech Republic and Slovakia, the white-blue-red flag was already reserved for Russia. So a coat of arms was incorporated into the Slovak flag, which was originally part of the old Hungarian coat of arms, and one of its hills represent the Matra mountain range which, when I last checked, was still placed in Hungary.
>>> I went into Waterstones is Bradford today, to find out what the >>> Russian flag looked like (long story). >> No idea about the books, but... do tell. I can't imagine why one would >> have to go into Waterstones to find out that the Russian flag is >> (literally) the Dutch flag rearranged, and IMWTK.
> The Slovak flag used to look like that while Slovakia was part of > Czechoslovakia and Russia was part of the Soviet union. > At the time of the division of the Czech Republic and Slovakia, the > white-blue-red flag was already reserved for Russia. So a coat of arms > was incorporated into the Slovak flag, which was originally part of > the old Hungarian coat of arms, and one of its hills represent the > Matra mountain range which, when I last checked, was still placed in > Hungary.
> So much for patriotic symbols.
And isn't the coat of arms the only difference between Slovakia and Slovenia?
Nigel Stapley wrote: > Anery wrote: > > Richard Bos wrote: > >> I can't imagine why one would > >> have to go into Waterstones to find out that the Russian flag is > >> (literally) the Dutch flag rearranged, and IMWTK.
> > The Slovak flag used to look like that while Slovakia was part of > > Czechoslovakia and Russia was part of the Soviet union. > > At the time of the division of the Czech Republic and Slovakia, the > > white-blue-red flag was already reserved for Russia. So a coat of arms > > was incorporated into the Slovak flag, which was originally part of > > the old Hungarian coat of arms, and one of its hills represent the > > Matra mountain range which, when I last checked, was still placed in > > Hungary.
> > So much for patriotic symbols.
> And isn't the coat of arms the only difference between Slovakia and > Slovenia?
Yes. Apart from that, the two countries are completely interchangeable.
> >> I went into Waterstones is Bradford today, to find out what the > >> Russian flag looked like (long story).
> > No idea about the books, but... do tell. I can't imagine why > > one would have to go into Waterstones to find out that the > > Russian flag is (literally) the Dutch flag rearranged, and > > IMWTK.
> As a prop for a short play we were doing at sacar, we were drawing > a world map, and we had decorated it with a few things to fill in > some of those annoying blank bits where all the water is. One of > the things was a Russian flag, and I knew it was white, blue and > red, but not in which order they went. So at lunchtime I went to > Waterstones to find an atlas or an encyclopedia or a book of flags > to find out.
I see. I had assumed - erroneously - that youwent from home and would therefore at least have had an internet connecttion on which to look it up; and therefore assumed that there must have been something unusual about that specific specimen of Russian flag. Without that assumption, it does make sense.
> >>> I went into Waterstones is Bradford today, to find out what the > >>> Russian flag looked like (long story). > >> No idea about the books, but... do tell. I can't imagine why one would > >> have to go into Waterstones to find out that the Russian flag is > >> (literally) the Dutch flag rearranged, and IMWTK.
> > The Slovak flag used to look like that while Slovakia was part of > > Czechoslovakia and Russia was part of the Soviet union. > > At the time of the division of the Czech Republic and Slovakia, the > > white-blue-red flag was already reserved for Russia. So a coat of arms > > was incorporated into the Slovak flag, which was originally part of > > the old Hungarian coat of arms, and one of its hills represent the > > Matra mountain range which, when I last checked, was still placed in > > Hungary.
> > So much for patriotic symbols.
To be fair, Slovakia hasn't, historically, had a great deal of time to gather patriottic symbols all of it's own. It's always been owned by one country or the other, except for the last decade and a half.
> And isn't the coat of arms the only difference between Slovakia and > Slovenia?
Yup. Slovenia's is smaller, placed more towards the top, and has three stars over a three-topped mountain in the arms instead of Slovakia's patriarchal cross standing on a three-topped mountain. I presume it's the same three-topped mountain, as well (as Anery says, from the Hungarian coat of arms). _And_ the Serbian flag is the Dutch flag upside down, and the Croatian flag is exactly the Dutch flag, with their famous check[1] tablecloth coat of arms for difference. And all because Peter went on holiday. And the Czech flag is also red, white and blue, but apparently that is more or less by accident, and for a change not derived from ours.
> To be fair, Slovakia hasn't, historically, had a great deal of time to > gather patriottic symbols all of it's own. It's always been owned by one > country or the other, except for the last decade and a half.
Not owned, at least not most of the time. It's been *part* of one country or another. The Slovaks are just often reluctant to own up to their own history. The medieval Hungary was a multiethnical country where the language of the nobility was Latin and the commoners spoke some of the multitude of the region's languages. Even when Hungary or its various parts became part of the Habsburg Empire, schools were established which taught in various languages including Slovak, most notably under Empress Maria Theresa. [1] Discrimination based on ethnicity began basically in the 19. century. Consequently, a wave of nationalist revolutions spread throughout the monarchy, one of the by-products of which was the Slovak coat of arms, as known today, established in the revolutionary year of 1848.
[0] This contribution has been dedicated to the 91st anniversary of the establishment of Czechoslovakia by the voluntary merging of Bohemia, Moravia, part of Silesia, and Slovakia into a common state in October 28th, 1918.)
[1] Which was a serious contestant in the survey for the greatest Slovak in 2005. Why not, in the Czech republic the title of the greatest Czech would have been won by a fictional figure (Jara Cimrman), weren't he disqualified with the banal excuse that he was not real.[2]
[2] I've never written a post with so many feetneet.[3]
[3] What's happened to Len Oil?
> > And isn't the coat of arms the only difference between Slovakia and > > Slovenia?
> Yup. Slovenia's is smaller, placed more towards the top, and has three > stars over a three-topped mountain in the arms instead of Slovakia's > patriarchal cross standing on a three-topped mountain. I presume it's > the same three-topped mountain, as well (as Anery says, from the > Hungarian coat of arms).
I'm not sure but I think it symbolizes Slovenia's highest mountain Triglav, which means "three-headed".
> _And_ the Serbian flag is the Dutch flag upside down, and the Croatian > flag is exactly the Dutch flag, with their famous check[1] tablecloth > coat of arms for difference. And all because Peter went on holiday.
Which Peter and what's the connection?
> And the Czech flag is also red, white and blue, but apparently that is more > or less by accident, and for a change not derived from ours.
The Czech flag was originally just white over red, identically to the flag of Poland. With the formation of Czechoslovakia, the blue triangle was added to symbolize the joining of Slovakia. After the splitting of Czechoslovakia the Czech Republic kept the Czechoslovak flag, which caused dismay among some of the Slovaks.
Anery <vsp...@atlas.cz> wrote: > On 28 =C5=99=C3=ADj, 11:52, ralt...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) wrote: > > _And_ the Serbian flag is the Dutch flag upside down, and the Croatian > > flag is exactly the Dutch flag, with their famous check[1] tablecloth > > coat of arms for difference. And all because Peter went on holiday.
> Which Peter and what's the connection?
Czar Peter the Great of Russia. The most credible story of why Russia's flag is what it is, is that he derived it from the Dutch one. He went on a trip to the Dutch provinces and England to learn the craft of shipmaking, and to investigate the organisation of navies, because he thought that Russia needed one. That part of it is undisputed. What is not as certain is that he then also decided that Russia would need a flag, to fly from his new ships. This flag he derived directly from the flag of the country where he had learned to build the ships, but with rearranged colours. Whether that last part is true is not quite as certain as the first, but it does have the advantage of being quite possible, and by all accounts quite like him (i.e., quick, simple, and without much care for old Russian traditions). The connection with (almost) all the other Slavic RWB flags is, of course, that the Russian colours became the pan-Slavic colours during the 1900s.
Richard Bos wrote: > Anery <vsp...@atlas.cz> wrote:
> > On 28 =C5=99=C3=ADj, 11:52, ralt...@xs4all.nl (Richard Bos) wrote:
> > > _And_ the Serbian flag is the Dutch flag upside down, and the Croatian > > > flag is exactly the Dutch flag, with their famous check[1] tablecloth > > > coat of arms for difference. And all because Peter went on holiday.
> > Which Peter and what's the connection?
> Czar Peter the Great of Russia. The most credible story of why Russia's > flag is what it is, is that he derived it from the Dutch one. He went on > a trip to the Dutch provinces and England to learn the craft of > shipmaking, and to investigate the organisation of navies, because he > thought that Russia needed one. That part of it is undisputed. What is > not as certain is that he then also decided that Russia would need a > flag, to fly from his new ships. This flag he derived directly from the > flag of the country where he had learned to build the ships, but with > rearranged colours. Whether that last part is true is not quite as > certain as the first, but it does have the advantage of being quite > possible, and by all accounts quite like him (i.e., quick, simple, and > without much care for old Russian traditions). The connection with > (almost) all the other Slavic RWB flags is, of course, that the Russian > colours became the pan-Slavic colours during the 1900s.
So what you are actually suggesting is that the Slovak flag is a combination of the Dutch and the Hungarian ones? Great. I'm sure the voters of the Slovak National Party would be delighted to know. <g>
Anery <vsp...@atlas.cz> wrote: > Richard Bos wrote: > > Czar Peter the Great of Russia. The most credible story of why Russia's > > flag is what it is, is that he derived it from the Dutch one. > > The connection with (almost) all the other Slavic RWB flags is, of course, > > that the Russian colours became the pan-Slavic colours during the 1900s.
> So what you are actually suggesting is that the Slovak flag is a > combination of the Dutch and the Hungarian ones? Great. > I'm sure the voters of the Slovak National Party would be delighted to > know. <g>
Yup :-)
And it gets even better: popular belief has it[1] that the red derives from a French principality (the orange of Orange[2], gradually changed to red because that's easier to work with in flags), and the blue from a German county (Nassau), which came together when a Hollandish-Friesian- Gelderlandic-Rhenish count of Nassau inherited the title of Orange from his cousin. Where the white is supposed (see [1]) to come from, I don't know.
Richard
[1] As always with traditions going back this far, reality and legend are hard to separate. It appearse that flags of various patterns of red, white and blue were present well before the house of Orange- Nassau became the most important in Dutch nobility. But even if the derivation is contrived, the association is real and long-standing. [2] The pun is accidental, but works in Dutch as well as it does in French, English and other languages. The principality gets its name from the Roman city of Arausio; the colour from the fruit, and that from the (IIRC) Portuguese naranja, which was loaned from Arabic.
Richard Bos wrote: > Anery <vsp...@atlas.cz> wrote:
>> Richard Bos wrote:
>>> Czar Peter the Great of Russia. The most credible story of why Russia's >>> flag is what it is, is that he derived it from the Dutch one.
>>> The connection with (almost) all the other Slavic RWB flags is, of course, >>> that the Russian colours became the pan-Slavic colours during the 1900s.
>> So what you are actually suggesting is that the Slovak flag is a >> combination of the Dutch and the Hungarian ones? Great. >> I'm sure the voters of the Slovak National Party would be delighted to >> know. <g>
> Yup :-)
> And it gets even better: popular belief has it[1] that the red derives > from a French principality (the orange of Orange[2], gradually changed > to red because that's easier to work with in flags), and the blue from a > German county (Nassau), which came together when a Hollandish-Friesian- > Gelderlandic-Rhenish count of Nassau inherited the title of Orange from > his cousin. Where the white is supposed (see [1]) to come from, I don't > know.
> Richard
> [1] As always with traditions going back this far, reality and legend > are hard to separate. It appearse that flags of various patterns of > red, white and blue were present well before the house of Orange- > Nassau became the most important in Dutch nobility. But even if the > derivation is contrived, the association is real and long-standing. > [2] The pun is accidental, but works in Dutch as well as it does in > French, English and other languages. The principality gets its name > from the Roman city of Arausio; the colour from the fruit, and that > from the (IIRC) Portuguese naranja, which was loaned from Arabic.
I heard that the French version ot the Tricolor is the blue and white of the Ancien Regime dipped in the blood of the revolution, which is why the red is at the flying end.
Richard Bos wrote: > Anery <vsp...@atlas.cz> wrote:
> > Richard Bos wrote:
> > > Czar Peter the Great of Russia. The most credible story of why Russia's > > > flag is what it is, is that he derived it from the Dutch one.
> > > The connection with (almost) all the other Slavic RWB flags is, of course, > > > that the Russian colours became the pan-Slavic colours during the 1900s.
It seems that there was a time after the revolutionary year of 1848 when there was a variation in the order of colours in the Slovak flag, one version of which was indeed identical to the Dutch one, until they definitively made up their mind.
OTOH, the Croatians claim theirs was not influenced by the pan-Slavic movement (and thus by Peter the Great etc.) but was derived from the coats of arms of Croatia, Dalmatia and Slavonia. At the time it originated, they weren't bothered by the fact that the Dutch flag was identical, as they were part of the Habsburg Monarchy which had its own symbols.
> And it gets even better: popular belief has it[1] that the red derives > from a French principality (the orange of Orange[2], gradually changed > [2] The pun is accidental, but works in Dutch as well as it does in > French, English and other languages. The principality gets its name > from the Roman city of Arausio; the colour from the fruit, and that > from the (IIRC) Portuguese naranja, which was loaned from Arabic.
It would almost work in Slovak as well, but for the overzealous linguists who have insisted that instead of the adjective "oranzovy", the word "pomarancovy" should be used. As, shurely, the prefix pom- or the word arancia are original Slovak words, used already by Prince Pribina in Great Moravia, one thousand years ago. I have yet to wait to actually hear it spoken by real people, but, at least, we have another thing in which we Differ From the Czechs.
>> the colour from the fruit, and that >> from the (IIRC) Portuguese naranja, which was loaned from Arabic.
> But....what was the word for the colour before that?
Yellowish-red, probably.
You'd be amazed how people get by without names for certain colours. Many languages don't distinguish between blue and green. The word "pink" was first used to describe a colour in the 17th century (and probably not the colour we currently call pink, but a yellowish-green). Some cultures see light blue and dark blue as seperate colours, and are presumably baffled that we don't.
-- Dave "All those with psychokinesis, raise my hand." The Room With No Doors, Kate Orman
Alec Cawley <a...@spamspam.co.uk> wrote: > Richard Bos wrote: > > And it gets even better: popular belief has it[1] that the red derives > > from a French principality (the orange of Orange[2], gradually changed > > to red because that's easier to work with in flags), and the blue from a > > German county (Nassau), which came together when a Hollandish-Friesian- > > Gelderlandic-Rhenish count of Nassau inherited the title of Orange from > > his cousin. Where the white is supposed (see [1]) to come from, I don't > > know. > I heard that the French version ot the Tricolor is the blue and white of > the Ancien Regime dipped in the blood of the revolution, which is why > the red is at the flying end.
I've never heard that one, and wouldn't believe it, for two reasons.
First, the most common and pretty well documented story is that it was an intentional combination of the red-and-blue of Paris, where the first (non-bloody!) phase of the revolution started, with the white of the Bourbon dynasty (which they didn't yet want to depose entirely, but put on a constitutional base as in the modern UK and Netherlands).
Second, the flag of the Ancien Regime wasn't impaled blue and white at all. Depending on the context, monarchist France used either the pure white of the Bourbons, or the France Ancient or France Modern which you can also find in the UKian coats of arms of Anne and before: entirely blue, at first semé de lys d'or, later with three golden boyscouts. Not only were those, TTBOMK, never combined on one flag, but certainly the fleurs de lys were never omitted from the blue flag.
Richard Bos wrote: > Alec Cawley <a...@spamspam.co.uk> wrote:
>> Richard Bos wrote: >>> And it gets even better: popular belief has it[1] that the red derives >>> from a French principality (the orange of Orange[2], gradually changed >>> to red because that's easier to work with in flags), and the blue from a >>> German county (Nassau), which came together when a Hollandish-Friesian- >>> Gelderlandic-Rhenish count of Nassau inherited the title of Orange from >>> his cousin. Where the white is supposed (see [1]) to come from, I don't >>> know.
>> I heard that the French version ot the Tricolor is the blue and white of >> the Ancien Regime dipped in the blood of the revolution, which is why >> the red is at the flying end.
> I've never heard that one, and wouldn't believe it, for two reasons.
> First, the most common and pretty well documented story is that it was > an intentional combination of the red-and-blue of Paris, where the first > (non-bloody!) phase of the revolution started, with the white of the > Bourbon dynasty (which they didn't yet want to depose entirely, but put > on a constitutional base as in the modern UK and Netherlands).
> Second, the flag of the Ancien Regime wasn't impaled blue and white at > all. Depending on the context, monarchist France used either the pure > white of the Bourbons, or the France Ancient or France Modern which you > can also find in the UKian coats of arms of Anne and before: entirely > blue, at first sem de lys d'or, later with three golden boyscouts. Not > only were those, TTBOMK, never combined on one flag, but certainly the > fleurs de lys were never omitted from the blue flag.
I had though that they were white fleurs-de-lys on a blue background, giving the blue and white. But I am certainly not confident of that - it is merely the tale which had stuck in my head.
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