Is Oracle selling ADF has some "point and drop and the page is built" app? - ADF Enterprise Methodology Group

Message from discussion Is Oracle selling ADF has some "point and drop and the page is built" app?
Received-SPF: neutral (google.com: 208.97.187.133 is neither permitted nor denied by best guess record for domain of av...@avromroyfaderman.com) client-ip=208.97.187.133;
Message-ID: <bc8b92a24bab1d8e8bc1c9c4858aa10b.squirrel@webmail.avromroyfaderman.com>
In-Reply-To: 
 <96d340ea-2ff9-4992-a582-423ce3a0e6aa@p21g2000prn.googlegroups.com>
References: 
    <96d340ea-2ff9-4992-a582-423ce3a0e6aa@p21g2000prn.googlegroups.com>
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 13:21:36 -0700
Subject: Re: [ADF Enterprise Methodology Group] Is Oracle selling ADF has 
 some "point and drop and the page is built"  app?
From: "Avrom Roy-Faderman" <av...@avromroyfaderman.com>
To: adf-methodology@googlegroups.com
User-Agent: SquirrelMail/1.4.19
Mime-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I have to admit, I'm inclined to agree with this. But a couple of
mitigating points:

1) With each subsequent release of JDeveloper, the amount of coding you
have to do goes down. This is *not* to say you can develop any sort of
serious enterprise application 100% declaratively, but things that used to
require a lot of coding (e.g., the vast majority of validation) no longer
do. (When I was working with 9i, I generally told people that the built-in
declarative validation rules were primarily there as *examples*, because
so much validation was too complex for them. I certainly wouldn't say that
about the validation rules provided with 11g.)

2) I'm of the opinion that, with a little work, you can isolate Java
coding to a small part of the team. You can have 80% of your team doing
drag-and-drop development, with the last 20% providing almost all the
coding work necessary. This doesn't mean you need no Java expertise on
your team, but for a lot of teams it means you just need one or two good
Java programmers, and everyone else can do the bulk of the work
declaratively.

That said, I think the idea that using ADF as the Java architecture for
your enterprise is *nothing but* dragging, dropping, and a little bit done
in property inspectors is more or less bunk. You're not going to come out
with a good app that is tailored to the needs of your specific usecase if
nobody on your team knows the difference between a class and an object.

Best,
Avrom

>
> Hi,
>
> I am on my 3rd ADF 11g project. One thing I learned in my 2 years with
> ADF, is the demo and basic tutorials provided by Oracle don't do
> justice to the potential of ADF.
>
> When I started ADF, I felt like a complete idiot. Add to that lack of
> proper documentation and samples and I was pulling my hair. Anyways,
> after getting over that mountain of hurdle I became a convert to ADF.
> I realize the potential of it. And I was ecstatic, when I heard Oracle
> bought Weblogic. I could see endless potential then, especially now
> that Oracle owns Java know! Throw in Webcenter and the various
> integration capabilities (OBIEE, ODI, BAM, BPEL, PeopleSoft,
> JDEdwards, SAP, Portal & SOA) and I am really excited for the future.
>
> In my view ADF 11g is a complete paradigm shift. Its is very close to
> the shift, going from C to Java.
>
> I was one of the few lucky ones! The first project on ADF, the CTO
> made it a point that all got the training. Also we followed proper
> SDLC and CMM steps. And the project was a huge success.
>
> But, I see the sales division do a dis-service to ADF. Is Oracle
> selling ADF has a some "point and drop and the page is ready"? In rush
> for sales, is it sold without telling customers what would be needed
> for ADF?
>
> I am noticing that the clients, some how seem to think, that you can
> just drag a component on to the page and the page is ready to go. Some
> how its okay to bring a newbie and he/she should be able to produce
> good ADF application in no time. They never realize that to be a good
> ADF developer that you first need to be a good Java developer and a
> good web developer.
>
> I see developers struggling mightly. And the clients refuse to give
> them training and add crazy time lines and you have a classic case of
> failed project. Throw in incompetent managers (.Net background,
> thinking Java should work just like .Net) and I see a classic recipe
> for disaster.
>
> What is the right way to start an ADF project? What should the
> recommended qualifications for an ADF resource be? Can anyone comment?
> Can we have a discussion?  Can others chime in with there hardships?
>
> Thanks,
> --ajay
>
> >
>


--=20
Avrom=92s Java EE and Oracle ADF Blog
http://www.avromroyfaderman.com