"Thanks to Chris Muir for giving permission to post this to the
group".
Hi All,
First of all, I would like to thank all the ADF gurus here in ADF EMG
for motivating and providing a lot of support for beginners in ADF
like me. ADF EMG is very informative and helps us focus on all aspects
of ADF right from application design to maintenance. I had worked on
ADF for 8 months on JDeveloperTP3 from Jan to August 2008 and I am a
big fan of ADF.Now it’s been almost a year that we haven’t worked on
ADF projects. But I and my colleagues are so much impressed of ADF
that we have chosen ADF programming as our career path. And we have
been in search of ADF jobs in India and to our horror we hardly find
any openings for ADF resources with less than 3 yrs of ADF experience,
as a result we are helpless in continuing our careers in ADF. What I
want to convey here is that,
1) Does Oracle take any initiative to encourage programmers to
accept ADF as their career?
2) Will there be any certifications or standards in future, so
that we can take up those to be certified ADF developers?
3) How do we convince employers to consider ADF beginners with
less than 1 yr of experience for ADF jobs?
4) In case if we do not get any ADF jobs, how do we keep
ourselves inclined to ADF even though we are not working on it?
5) Even though ADF is such a rich and powerful framework why is
that it’s not famous or popular choice for application development
yet, even after its existence for such a long time?
6) Now with ADF11g production release, can we see software
companies & enterprises to consider ADF as their popular choice for
application development?
7) Is Oracle taking enough initiative to popularize ADF in
countries like India?
8) What is the future of ADF in countries like India?
We have too many ADF community groups coming up now in Orkut , Face
book ,Twitters etc, but all the members of those groups have same
concern that - "why isn’t there enough job opportunities in ADF even
though it’s one of the powerful and rich frameworks?".I would be
grateful to you if you could answer my questions and analyze what
steps or measures can be taken to encourage application developers and
employers to consider ADF. A million thanks for your precious time in
reading this post. I would wait for your informative reply, thanks in
advance.
Thanks & Regards
Karthik Nag S
email: karthiknag....@gmail.com
phone :+91 9740066967.
Bangalore, India.
Subject: Re: [ADF Enterprise Methodology Group] Initiative to encourage ADF for beginners - "Thanks to Chris Muir for giving permission to post this to the group".
To overcome exactly the situation you mention, I have been telling
Oracle for years that they need to provide a free version of ADF (like
the free "Express Edition" database).
I expect that many organizations in countries like India, China and
Indonesia will not choose a 5000$ per CPU framework, but instead work
with an (inferior?) home-built or Open Source framework. It happens
here in Denmark even with organizations that could easily afford the
cost...
But if ADF was free and could be deployed on free JEE app server like
JBoss, many smaller organizations would take up this superior
technology. And they would have smaller projects needing less skills -
providing a place where relative beginners can improve their skills.
The free version would only have community support - but bigger
organizations could purchase an ADF license and get access to the
excellent Oracle support. Oracle would get a lot of developers working
with ADF and would not loose any revenue - the big organizations will
still buy the support, and the small organizations aren't buying it
today.
I would encourage you and your colleagues (and everybody else in the
ADF EMG) to try to convince Oracle that we need a free version of ADF.
> "Thanks to Chris Muir for giving permission to post this to the
> group".
> Hi All,
> First of all, I would like to thank all the ADF gurus here in ADF EMG
> for motivating and providing a lot of support for beginners in ADF
> like me. ADF EMG is very informative and helps us focus on all aspects
> of ADF right from application design to maintenance. I had worked on
> ADF for 8 months on JDeveloperTP3 from Jan to August 2008 and I am a
> big fan of ADF.Now it’s been almost a year that we haven’t worked on
> ADF projects. But I and my colleagues are so much impressed of ADF
> that we have chosen ADF programming as our career path. And we have
> been in search of ADF jobs in India and to our horror we hardly find
> any openings for ADF resources with less than 3 yrs of ADF experience,
> as a result we are helpless in continuing our careers in ADF. What I
> want to convey here is that,
> 1) Does Oracle take any initiative to encourage programmers to
> accept ADF as their career?
> 2) Will there be any certifications or standards in future, so
> that we can take up those to be certified ADF developers?
> 3) How do we convince employers to consider ADF beginners with
> less than 1 yr of experience for ADF jobs?
> 4) In case if we do not get any ADF jobs, how do we keep
> ourselves inclined to ADF even though we are not working on it?
> 5) Even though ADF is such a rich and powerful framework why is
> that it’s not famous or popular choice for application development
> yet, even after its existence for such a long time?
> 6) Now with ADF11g production release, can we see software
> companies & enterprises to consider ADF as their popular choice for
> application development?
> 7) Is Oracle taking enough initiative to popularize ADF in
> countries like India?
> 8) What is the future of ADF in countries like India?
> We have too many ADF community groups coming up now in Orkut , Face
> book ,Twitters etc, but all the members of those groups have same
> concern that - "why isn’t there enough job opportunities in ADF even
> though it’s one of the powerful and rich frameworks?".I would be
> grateful to you if you could answer my questions and analyze what
> steps or measures can be taken to encourage application developers and
> employers to consider ADF. A million thanks for your precious time in
> reading this post. I would wait for your informative reply, thanks in
> advance.
> Thanks & Regards
> Karthik Nag S
> email: karthiknag....@gmail.com
> phone :+91 9740066967.
> Bangalore, India.
A Fun and Interesting community project (for, say,
samplecode.oracle.com)
would be an open source implementation of JSR227. In our Copious Free
Time, of course. Although who knows, when these page proofs are done
(8
days!), maybe I'll try to at least get such a thing *started*
(definitely
not something I could actually *implement* by myself, though). I'm
curious--if I were to get such a thing started, are there any
Java-comfortable types here who would be interested in joining it?
This would be substantially lower functionality than ADFm, of course--
and
it wouldn't have anything *like* the design-time support JDev provides
for
ADFm. But the basic idea of something that allows you to use the same
sort
of JSF EL syntax to refer to business services would be a lot better
than
forcing people into homebrew or away from JSR227 altogether. It could
help
Oracle, too--when people saw how much even a basic framework with no
real
design-time support could give them, it might make shelling out that
extra
$5k/processor seem more worthwhile.
Since the skills would be, at least in part, portable, this would also
create a wider range of jobs for ADF developers (because of the lack
of
design-time support, you'd need to spend a lot more time hand-editing
XML,
but the basic architectural *principles*, at least, would be the same,
which is a lot more than you can say for ADF vs. trad Java EE apps).
Combined with Trinidad, you have an everything-but-the-business-
services
solution that's at least very similar to a simplified all-ADF *10g*
stack
and is 100% free and open. And of course a free "ADF XE" product that
Oracle might release would probably look more like 10g than 11g
anyway,
right?
Of course, if Oracle wants to do this for us instead, I'm not saying
we
should stop them.
Best,
Avrom
On Aug 19, 10:43 am, Sten Vesterli <s...@vesterli.com> wrote:
> To overcome exactly the situation you mention, I have been telling
> Oracle for years that they need to provide a free version of ADF (like
> the free "Express Edition" database).
> I expect that many organizations in countries like India, China and
> Indonesia will not choose a 5000$ per CPU framework, but instead work
> with an (inferior?) home-built or Open Source framework. It happens
> here in Denmark even with organizations that could easily afford the
> cost...
> But if ADF was free and could be deployed on free JEE app server like
> JBoss, many smaller organizations would take up this superior
> technology. And they would have smaller projects needing less skills -
> providing a place where relative beginners can improve their skills.
> The free version would only have community support - but bigger
> organizations could purchase an ADF license and get access to the
> excellent Oracle support. Oracle would get a lot of developers working
> with ADF and would not loose any revenue - the big organizations will
> still buy the support, and the small organizations aren't buying it
> today.
> I would encourage you and your colleagues (and everybody else in the
> ADF EMG) to try to convince Oracle that we need a free version of ADF.
> > "Thanks to Chris Muir for giving permission to post this to the
> > group".
> > Hi All,
> > First of all, I would like to thank all the ADF gurus here in ADF EMG
> > for motivating and providing a lot of support for beginners in ADF
> > like me. ADF EMG is very informative and helps us focus on all aspects
> > of ADF right from application design to maintenance. I had worked on
> > ADF for 8 months on JDeveloperTP3 from Jan to August 2008 and I am a
> > big fan of ADF.Now it’s been almost a year that we haven’t worked on
> > ADF projects. But I and my colleagues are so much impressed of ADF
> > that we have chosen ADF programming as our career path. And we have
> > been in search of ADF jobs in India and to our horror we hardly find
> > any openings for ADF resources with less than 3 yrs of ADF experience,
> > as a result we are helpless in continuing our careers in ADF. What I
> > want to convey here is that,
> > 1) Does Oracle take any initiative to encourage programmers to
> > accept ADF as their career?
> > 2) Will there be any certifications or standards in future, so
> > that we can take up those to be certified ADF developers?
> > 3) How do we convince employers to consider ADF beginners with
> > less than 1 yr of experience for ADF jobs?
> > 4) In case if we do not get any ADF jobs, how do we keep
> > ourselves inclined to ADF even though we are not working on it?
> > 5) Even though ADF is such a rich and powerful framework why is
> > that it’s not famous or popular choice for application development
> > yet, even after its existence for such a long time?
> > 6) Now with ADF11g production release, can we see software
> > companies & enterprises to consider ADF as their popular choice for
> > application development?
> > 7) Is Oracle taking enough initiative to popularize ADF in
> > countries like India?
> > 8) What is the future of ADF in countries like India?
> > We have too many ADF community groups coming up now in Orkut , Face
> > book ,Twitters etc, but all the members of those groups have same
> > concern that - "why isn’t there enough job opportunities in ADF even
> > though it’s one of the powerful and rich frameworks?".I would be
> > grateful to you if you could answer my questions and analyze what
> > steps or measures can be taken to encourage application developers and
> > employers to consider ADF. A million thanks for your precious time in
> > reading this post. I would wait for your informative reply, thanks in
> > advance.
> > Thanks & Regards
> > Karthik Nag S
> > email: karthiknag....@gmail.com
> > phone :+91 9740066967.
> > Bangalore, India.
1) Does Oracle take any initiative to encourage programmers to accept
ADF as their career?
Yes we do. We do a lot of ADF presentations in various events all over
the world. We also hold ADF focused OTN Fusion Developer Days to
educate people on the role of ADF and its functionality.
2) Will there be any certifications or standards in future, so
that we can take up those to be certified ADF developers?
That's something we've been trying to push Oracle University to do for
a while, but it seems that it is not trivial to get Oracle University
to develop a new certification program. We haven't given up yet.
3) How do we convince employers to consider ADF beginners with
less than 1 yr of experience for ADF jobs?
That's a problem every new developer faces. I think one option would
be to show case your capabilities by building sample applications or
ADF related projects and hosting them on the Oracle samples servers.
Showing off your capabilities can also be done by helping people on
the OTN Discussion forum. Blogging etc.
4) In case if we do not get any ADF jobs, how do we keep
ourselves inclined to ADF even though we are not working on it?
Develop a hobby ADF project?
5) Even though ADF is such a rich and powerful framework why is
that it’s not famous or popular choice for application development
yet, even after its existence for such a long time?
We do have a hard time getting more exposure out in the generic Java
world since we are "Oracle's framework" - and perceived to be aimed
just for Oracle shops.
I do believe that members of this group specifically can help change
this by talking more about ADF with developers outside of the Oracle
world. The framework popularity depends to a large degree on the
activities of the people who use it. Doing things like presenting in
your local Java user group, posting more blogs, increasing your
presence on forums like theserverside.com or java.dzone.com and let
your opinion be heard can change the exposure and perception of ADF.
I tend to think that ADF is posed for a greater adoption with the
increasing role of Oracle in the Java space, along with the fact that
ADF is now at the base of Oracle WebCenter and the upcoming Fusion
Applicaitons.
6) Now with ADF11g production release, can we see software
companies & enterprises to consider ADF as their popular choice for
application development?
We do see an increased interest in ADF lately. A lot of people like
what ADF offers in the UI space with the rich components. And more
people are realizing that they need a complete framework when
developing an application.
7) Is Oracle taking enough initiative to popularize ADF in
countries like India?
We haven't been as active as I would have liked in APAC in general.
Maybe because we don't have local product managers there. However we
are planning to increase ADF related activities in that region of the
world in the coming months.
8) What is the future of ADF in countries like India?
We ended up using ADF BC on the project mentioned there, but I would
still like to get the jsr227 standard for and EJB3 or other service
layer to such a stage that the guys building the front end, could have
the same options they have when using ADF BC, and it would end up not
making a difference to them what is used to build the business layer.
Personally I think the fact that Oracle themselves are using ADF BC on
their business services layer mean that they put in allot more effort
into that side of the project than the standard JPA/EJB
implementation, which is understandable. As mentioned in the other
thread, i think the uptake on the ADF Rich Components would be bigger
from n pure java market if this databinding part was made easier.
I do have a couple of ideas on how this could possibly be done, but
like you said, it is not a small project to have this implemented
properly. Please let me know if you do start up something like this.
Regards
Drikus Britz
On Aug 19, 9:03 pm, Avrom Roy-Faderman <av...@avromroyfaderman.com>
wrote:
> A Fun and Interesting community project (for, say,
> samplecode.oracle.com)
> would be an open source implementation of JSR227. In our Copious Free
> Time, of course. Although who knows, when these page proofs are done
> (8
> days!), maybe I'll try to at least get such a thing *started*
> (definitely
> not something I could actually *implement* by myself, though). I'm
> curious--if I were to get such a thing started, are there any
> Java-comfortable types here who would be interested in joining it?
> This would be substantially lower functionality than ADFm, of course--
> and
> it wouldn't have anything *like* the design-time support JDev provides
> for
> ADFm. But the basic idea of something that allows you to use the same
> sort
> of JSF EL syntax to refer to business services would be a lot better
> than
> forcing people into homebrew or away from JSR227 altogether. It could
> help
> Oracle, too--when people saw how much even a basic framework with no
> real
> design-time support could give them, it might make shelling out that
> extra
> $5k/processor seem more worthwhile.
> Since the skills would be, at least in part, portable, this would also
> create a wider range of jobs for ADF developers (because of the lack
> of
> design-time support, you'd need to spend a lot more time hand-editing
> XML,
> but the basic architectural *principles*, at least, would be the same,
> which is a lot more than you can say for ADF vs. trad Java EE apps).
> Combined with Trinidad, you have an everything-but-the-business-
> services
> solution that's at least very similar to a simplified all-ADF *10g*
> stack
> and is 100% free and open. And of course a free "ADF XE" product that
> Oracle might release would probably look more like 10g than 11g
> anyway,
> right?
> Of course, if Oracle wants to do this for us instead, I'm not saying
> we
> should stop them.
> Best,
> Avrom
> On Aug 19, 10:43 am, Sten Vesterli <s...@vesterli.com> wrote:
> > Hi Karthik,
> > To overcome exactly the situation you mention, I have been telling
> > Oracle for years that they need to provide a free version of ADF (like
> > the free "Express Edition" database).
> > I expect that many organizations in countries like India, China and
> > Indonesia will not choose a 5000$ per CPU framework, but instead work
> > with an (inferior?) home-built or Open Source framework. It happens
> > here in Denmark even with organizations that could easily afford the
> > cost...
> > But if ADF was free and could be deployed on free JEE app server like
> > JBoss, many smaller organizations would take up this superior
> > technology. And they would have smaller projects needing less skills -
> > providing a place where relative beginners can improve their skills.
> > The free version would only have community support - but bigger
> > organizations could purchase an ADF license and get access to the
> > excellent Oracle support. Oracle would get a lot of developers working
> > with ADF and would not loose any revenue - the big organizations will
> > still buy the support, and the small organizations aren't buying it
> > today.
> > I would encourage you and your colleagues (and everybody else in the
> > ADF EMG) to try to convince Oracle that we need a free version of ADF.
> > > "Thanks to Chris Muir for giving permission to post this to the
> > > group".
> > > Hi All,
> > > First of all, I would like to thank all the ADF gurus here in ADF EMG
> > > for motivating and providing a lot of support for beginners in ADF
> > > like me. ADF EMG is very informative and helps us focus on all aspects
> > > of ADF right from application design to maintenance. I had worked on
> > > ADF for 8 months on JDeveloperTP3 from Jan to August 2008 and I am a
> > > big fan of ADF.Now it’s been almost a year that we haven’t worked on
> > > ADF projects. But I and my colleagues are so much impressed of ADF
> > > that we have chosen ADF programming as our career path. And we have
> > > been in search of ADF jobs in India and to our horror we hardly find
> > > any openings for ADF resources with less than 3 yrs of ADF experience,
> > > as a result we are helpless in continuing our careers in ADF. What I
> > > want to convey here is that,
> > > 1) Does Oracle take any initiative to encourage programmers to
> > > accept ADF as their career?
> > > 2) Will there be any certifications or standards in future, so
> > > that we can take up those to be certified ADF developers?
> > > 3) How do we convince employers to consider ADF beginners with
> > > less than 1 yr of experience for ADF jobs?
> > > 4) In case if we do not get any ADF jobs, how do we keep
> > > ourselves inclined to ADF even though we are not working on it?
> > > 5) Even though ADF is such a rich and powerful framework why is
> > > that it’s not famous or popular choice for application development
> > > yet, even after its existence for such a long time?
> > > 6) Now with ADF11g production release, can we see software
> > > companies & enterprises to consider ADF as their popular choice for
> > > application development?
> > > 7) Is Oracle taking enough initiative to popularize ADF in
> > > countries like India?
> > > 8) What is the future of ADF in countries like India?
> > > We have too many ADF community groups coming up now in Orkut , Face
> > > book ,Twitters etc, but all the members of those groups have same
> > > concern that - "why isn’t there enough job opportunities in ADF even
> > > though it’s one of the powerful and rich frameworks?".I would be
> > > grateful to you if you could answer my questions and analyze what
> > > steps or measures can be taken to encourage application developers and
> > > employers to consider ADF. A million thanks for your precious time in
> > > reading this post. I would wait for your informative reply, thanks in
> > > advance.
> > > Thanks & Regards
> > > Karthik Nag S
> > > email: karthiknag....@gmail.com
> > > phone :+91 9740066967.
> > > Bangalore, India.
How would a hobbyist develop an ADF project ? That sounds good until
he wants to deploy, which means unreachable licence fees.
Would Oracle provide any reasonable licence fee or even free licence
for hobbyist or very small companies which are interested in the
technology but cannot afford it yet ?
The idea of an ADF XE could be a good idea, but I don't want a "baby
frameowrk" which would only frustrate developers more.
The best option IMO is the one mentionned by Sten Vesterli : make the
whole ADF stack as-is free, pay for support (free with WLS as usual).
This is a much more modern approach to licencing and would definitely
benefit ADF adoption and that could drain interest in other Oracle
products (ERP, AS, SOA etc.).
Thanks
Seb.
On Aug 20, 10:16 am, Shay <shay.shmelt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 1) Does Oracle take any initiative to encourage programmers to accept
> ADF as their career?
> Yes we do. We do a lot of ADF presentations in various events all over
> the world. We also hold ADF focused OTN Fusion Developer Days to
> educate people on the role of ADF and its functionality.
> 2) Will there be any certifications or standards in future, so
> that we can take up those to be certified ADF developers?
> That's something we've been trying to push Oracle University to do for
> a while, but it seems that it is not trivial to get Oracle University
> to develop a new certification program. We haven't given up yet.
> 3) How do we convince employers to consider ADF beginners with
> less than 1 yr of experience for ADF jobs?
> That's a problem every new developer faces. I think one option would
> be to show case your capabilities by building sample applications or
> ADF related projects and hosting them on the Oracle samples servers.
> Showing off your capabilities can also be done by helping people on
> the OTN Discussion forum. Blogging etc.
> 4) In case if we do not get any ADF jobs, how do we keep
> ourselves inclined to ADF even though we are not working on it?
> Develop a hobby ADF project?
> 5) Even though ADF is such a rich and powerful framework why is
> that it’s not famous or popular choice for application development
> yet, even after its existence for such a long time?
> We do have a hard time getting more exposure out in the generic Java
> world since we are "Oracle's framework" - and perceived to be aimed
> just for Oracle shops.
> I do believe that members of this group specifically can help change
> this by talking more about ADF with developers outside of the Oracle
> world. The framework popularity depends to a large degree on the
> activities of the people who use it. Doing things like presenting in
> your local Java user group, posting more blogs, increasing your
> presence on forums like theserverside.com or java.dzone.com and let
> your opinion be heard can change the exposure and perception of ADF.
> I tend to think that ADF is posed for a greater adoption with the
> increasing role of Oracle in the Java space, along with the fact that
> ADF is now at the base of Oracle WebCenter and the upcoming Fusion
> Applicaitons.
> 6) Now with ADF11g production release, can we see software
> companies & enterprises to consider ADF as their popular choice for
> application development?
> We do see an increased interest in ADF lately. A lot of people like
> what ADF offers in the UI space with the rich components. And more
> people are realizing that they need a complete framework when
> developing an application.
> 7) Is Oracle taking enough initiative to popularize ADF in
> countries like India?
> We haven't been as active as I would have liked in APAC in general.
> Maybe because we don't have local product managers there. However we
> are planning to increase ADF related activities in that region of the
> world in the coming months.
> 8) What is the future of ADF in countries like India?
I've discussed the ADF licensing question with others both online and
offline too. Originally I too was thinking there should be a free/XE
of ADF. However more recently I'm not so sure, as long as there are
reasonably priced entry level versions of OFM/WLS 11g.
ADF is not an open source project and does not have developers around
the world contributing their time to it for free - Oracle has to
employ them. Therefore for ADF to compete feature- and productivity-
wise with other frameworks Oracle has to continue investing money into
its R&D. Now you could say that this investment should be cross-
subsidised from another part of the Oracle empire, and arguably when
you look at the improvements in ADF 10.1.3 and 11g over the last 2 or
3 years this must already have been happening, but this isn't a
sustainable commercial model. So if you do that you then risk a bean
counter coming along and saying this is a loss making activity so
should be cut (not likely because of Fusion apps) - or funded entirely
by Apps. Then if Apps were paying the bills what priority will be
given to the features that enterprise developers may need (e.g.
skinning so that it doesn't look like an Oracle app!) but Fusion Apps
don't..?
We also need to consider the target market for ADF, which in my
opinion, is existing Oracle users with enterprise-grade in-house apps.
I'm not saying that licence fees are irrelevant, it's just that most
companies don't expect something for nothing. Hobbyists are allowed to
do use ADF etc for free under the OTN licence, but then if you have an
application that is worth deploying in a commercial environment
presumably it worth paying the licence for (in the same way as it is
worth paying the developer to write it, providing hardware/electricity
to run it, etc).
Thanks for your valuable suggestions, comments and informative
responses.
Would it be possible to highlight the issues faced by ADF beginners
in conferences like OOW 09 and DOAG 09 ? I guess most of ADF
beginners would be happy if these issues are addressed in big events
so that every one could come up with various ideas, measures or
solutions that would accelarate the growth and popularity of ADF.
Thanks & Regards
Karthik Nag S
On Aug 26, 10:21 pm, Simon Haslam <Sim...@veriton.co.uk> wrote:
> I've discussed the ADF licensing question with others both online and
> offline too. Originally I too was thinking there should be a free/XE
> of ADF. However more recently I'm not so sure, as long as there are
> reasonably priced entry level versions of OFM/WLS 11g.
> ADF is not an open source project and does not have developers around
> the world contributing their time to it for free - Oracle has to
> employ them. Therefore for ADF to compete feature- and productivity-
> wise with other frameworks Oracle has to continue investing money into
> its R&D. Now you could say that this investment should be cross-
> subsidised from another part of the Oracle empire, and arguably when
> you look at the improvements in ADF 10.1.3 and 11g over the last 2 or
> 3 years this must already have been happening, but this isn't a
> sustainable commercial model. So if you do that you then risk a bean
> counter coming along and saying this is a loss making activity so
> should be cut (not likely because of Fusion apps) - or funded entirely
> by Apps. Then if Apps were paying the bills what priority will be
> given to the features that enterprise developers may need (e.g.
> skinning so that it doesn't look like an Oracle app!) but Fusion Apps
> don't..?
> We also need to consider the target market for ADF, which in my
> opinion, is existing Oracle users with enterprise-grade in-house apps.
> I'm not saying that licence fees are irrelevant, it's just that most
> companies don't expect something for nothing. Hobbyists are allowed to
> do use ADF etc for free under the OTN licence, but then if you have an
> application that is worth deploying in a commercial environment
> presumably it worth paying the licence for (in the same way as it is
> worth paying the developer to write it, providing hardware/electricity
> to run it, etc).
Subject: Re: [ADF Enterprise Methodology Group] Re: Initiative to encourage ADF for beginners - "Thanks to Chris Muir for giving permission to post this to the group".
At both Oracle World and DOAG I will be delivering some entry level ADF presentations. For example, at DOAG (and the UKOUG) I am delivering a masterclass on "How to become a Fusion Developer with no Java" - which will demonstrate the full power of ADF without having to drop into anything more complicated than an "IF..ELSE" statement. I know there are also sessions overviewing the Fusion/ADF development experience as well as dozens of hands-on sessions being run around the globe in 2009 and 2010.
There is also a full Oracle developer stream at OW which will also have hands on sessions which will suit beginners as well.
http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/index.html
> Thanks for your valuable suggestions, comments and informative
> responses.
> Would it be possible to highlight the issues faced by ADF beginners
> in conferences like OOW 09 and DOAG 09 ? I guess most of ADF
> beginners would be happy if these issues are addressed in big events
> so that every one could come up with various ideas, measures or
> solutions that would accelarate the growth and popularity of ADF.
> Thanks & Regards
> Karthik Nag S
> On Aug 26, 10:21 pm, Simon Haslam <Sim...@veriton.co.uk> wrote:
>> I've discussed the ADF licensing question with others both online and
>> offline too. Originally I too was thinking there should be a free/XE
>> of ADF. However more recently I'm not so sure, as long as there are
>> reasonably priced entry level versions of OFM/WLS 11g.
>> ADF is not an open source project and does not have developers around
>> the world contributing their time to it for free - Oracle has to
>> employ them. Therefore for ADF to compete feature- and productivity-
>> wise with other frameworks Oracle has to continue investing money into
>> its R&D. Now you could say that this investment should be cross-
>> subsidised from another part of the Oracle empire, and arguably when
>> you look at the improvements in ADF 10.1.3 and 11g over the last 2 or
>> 3 years this must already have been happening, but this isn't a
>> sustainable commercial model. So if you do that you then risk a bean
>> counter coming along and saying this is a loss making activity so
>> should be cut (not likely because of Fusion apps) - or funded entirely
>> by Apps. Then if Apps were paying the bills what priority will be
>> given to the features that enterprise developers may need (e.g.
>> skinning so that it doesn't look like an Oracle app!) but Fusion Apps
>> don't..?
>> We also need to consider the target market for ADF, which in my
>> opinion, is existing Oracle users with enterprise-grade in-house apps.
>> I'm not saying that licence fees are irrelevant, it's just that most
>> companies don't expect something for nothing. Hobbyists are allowed to
>> do use ADF etc for free under the OTN licence, but then if you have an
>> application that is worth deploying in a commercial environment
>> presumably it worth paying the licence for (in the same way as it is
>> worth paying the developer to write it, providing hardware/electricity
>> to run it, etc).
I am confused about the title of your masterclass.
I believe that is close to impossible to create a production quality
Fusion application without having a deep understanding of Java and
OOP. Without that you won't be able to use inheritance of VO's, EO's
or AM's. Even the most humble developer is suppose to understand basic
things like formatting a date in java, casting, overriding a methods,
extending base classes.
All the best,
Florin Marcus
On Sep 21, 11:19 am, Grant Ronald <grant.ron...@oracle.com> wrote:
> At both Oracle World and DOAG I will be delivering some entry level ADF
> presentations. For example, at DOAG (and the UKOUG) I am delivering a
> masterclass on "How to become a Fusion Developer with no Java" - which
> will demonstrate the full power of ADF without having to drop into
> anything more complicated than an "IF..ELSE" statement. I know there
> are also sessions overviewing the Fusion/ADF development experience as
> well as dozens of hands-on sessions being run around the globe in 2009
> and 2010.
> There is also a full Oracle developer stream at OW which will also have
> hands on sessions which will suit beginners as well.http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/index.html
> So, don't worry, there are plenty of sessions for all levels.
> Regards
> Grant
> Karthik Nag wrote:
> > Hi All,
> > Thanks for your valuable suggestions, comments and informative
> > responses.
> > Would it be possible to highlight the issues faced by ADF beginners
> > in conferences like OOW 09 and DOAG 09 ? I guess most of ADF
> > beginners would be happy if these issues are addressed in big events
> > so that every one could come up with various ideas, measures or
> > solutions that would accelarate the growth and popularity of ADF.
> > Thanks & Regards
> > Karthik Nag S
> > On Aug 26, 10:21 pm, Simon Haslam <Sim...@veriton.co.uk> wrote:
> >> I've discussed the ADF licensing question with others both online and
> >> offline too. Originally I too was thinking there should be a free/XE
> >> of ADF. However more recently I'm not so sure, as long as there are
> >> reasonably priced entry level versions of OFM/WLS 11g.
> >> ADF is not an open source project and does not have developers around
> >> the world contributing their time to it for free - Oracle has to
> >> employ them. Therefore for ADF to compete feature- and productivity-
> >> wise with other frameworks Oracle has to continue investing money into
> >> its R&D. Now you could say that this investment should be cross-
> >> subsidised from another part of the Oracle empire, and arguably when
> >> you look at the improvements in ADF 10.1.3 and 11g over the last 2 or
> >> 3 years this must already have been happening, but this isn't a
> >> sustainable commercial model. So if you do that you then risk a bean
> >> counter coming along and saying this is a loss making activity so
> >> should be cut (not likely because of Fusion apps) - or funded entirely
> >> by Apps. Then if Apps were paying the bills what priority will be
> >> given to the features that enterprise developers may need (e.g.
> >> skinning so that it doesn't look like an Oracle app!) but Fusion Apps
> >> don't..?
> >> We also need to consider the target market for ADF, which in my
> >> opinion, is existing Oracle users with enterprise-grade in-house apps.
> >> I'm not saying that licence fees are irrelevant, it's just that most
> >> companies don't expect something for nothing. Hobbyists are allowed to
> >> do use ADF etc for free under the OTN licence, but then if you have an
> >> application that is worth deploying in a commercial environment
> >> presumably it worth paying the licence for (in the same way as it is
> >> worth paying the developer to write it, providing hardware/electricity
> >> to run it, etc).
Your message here is a little confused. When you say "deep", you
imply expert. Then you imply the Java concepts of inheritance, dates,
casting etc are basics. Which one is it? You can't have it both
ways.
Let's be honest. Those concepts *are* basic, in fact basic Java 101
in my opinion. I've taught those same concepts in 2 hours to
programmers, and they pick it up, it really isn't that hard, probably
the hardest being object casting. If a programmer is struggling with
these simple concepts I'd suggest they struggle with most computing
problems.
I won't disagree ADF programmers need to know those basic concepts,
and I even go on to say the more Java knowledge programmers have the
easier it becomes, but they don't need to be "experts" from day 1.
This would be the core premise of Grant's presentation and one I've
successfully used before. You need to remember that a lot of
programmers looked at Java years ago and were put off by how much they
had to program, even having to program their own ADF equivalents
because there was nothing available or it was primitive. As such many
found it a difficult if not impossible task because they really did
need to be a Java expert to get anywhere (I shudder when imagining
writing my own ADF equivalent). This anti-Java-bias can be maintained
to today against Java and it's contemporary frameworks such as ADF.
As such Grant's presentation is trying to break down those perceived
biases to show what can be done with minimal Java knowledge, and also
highlight how Oracle has undertaken a lot of work to reduce that Java
barrier. Personally I've seen that barrier massively drop since 9.0.4-
>10.1.2->10.1.3->11g, it really is much easier now. In fact we've
offered an ADF course since 10.1.3 as it became possible to teach it
in a week without having to spend another week learning Java (though
again, I concede it does help).
Finally the proof is in the ADF pudding (strawberry flavoured). My
current client has just successfully implemented their first ADF
application, and none of the programmers would consider themselves
expert Java programmers. Their success in adopting ADF (besides
training from my company which of course is A1!) has not been in
becoming Java and ADF experts instantaneously, but biting off small
problems and solving them 1 by 1 while buildng their skillsets.
The issue of skillsets is one that will be discussed at OOW during the
ADF EMG, I encourage all to attend please!
Regards,
CM.
On Sep 23, 4:47 am, Florin Marcus <florin.mar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am confused about the title of your masterclass.
> I believe that is close to impossible to create a production quality
> Fusion application without having a deep understanding of Java and
> OOP. Without that you won't be able to use inheritance of VO's, EO's
> or AM's. Even the most humble developer is suppose to understand basic
> things like formatting a date in java, casting, overriding a methods,
> extending base classes.
Subject: Re: [ADF Enterprise Methodology Group] Re: Initiative to encourage ADF for beginners - "Thanks to Chris Muir for giving permission to post this to the group".
While I agree that you can't launch an enterprise IT effort with ADF
without having any Java programmers on your team, unless you only need
applications with *very* limited functionality (basically exactly what is
provided out-of-the-box), I *don't* agree that every single ADF
developer--or even your average ADF developer--has to have any sort of
deep understanding of OOP to be productive. Most VO's, EO's, etc don't
require individual custom classes, so their developers don't even need to
know about, e.g., overriding methods. I've got some fairly serious
applications right now that contain only about 10 custom Java classes each
(although they use an enterprise-wide custom framework with a lot more
than that). IMO, you need to have serious Java skills to be an ADF tech
lead, but *not* to call yourself--quite reasonably--an ADF developer.
> I am confused about the title of your masterclass.
> I believe that is close to impossible to create a production quality
> Fusion application without having a deep understanding of Java and
> OOP. Without that you won't be able to use inheritance of VO's, EO's
> or AM's. Even the most humble developer is suppose to understand basic
> things like formatting a date in java, casting, overriding a methods,
> extending base classes.
> All the best,
> Florin Marcus
> On Sep 21, 11:19 am, Grant Ronald <grant.ron...@oracle.com> wrote:
>> At both Oracle World and DOAG I will be delivering some entry level ADF
>> presentations. For example, at DOAG (and the UKOUG) I am delivering a
>> masterclass on "How to become a Fusion Developer with no Java" - which
>> will demonstrate the full power of ADF without having to drop into
>> anything more complicated than an "IF..ELSE" statement. I know there
>> are also sessions overviewing the Fusion/ADF development experience as
>> well as dozens of hands-on sessions being run around the globe in 2009
>> and 2010.
>> There is also a full Oracle developer stream at OW which will also have
>> hands on sessions which will suit beginners as
>> well.http://www.oracle.com/technology/products/jdev/index.html
>> There is also a dedicated page on OTN for the "newbies" who are coming
>> from a more traditional Oracle
>> backgroundhttp://otn.oracle.com/formsdesignerj2ee
>> So, don't worry, there are plenty of sessions for all levels.
>> Regards
>> Grant
>> Karthik Nag wrote:
>> > Hi All,
>> > Thanks for your valuable suggestions, comments and informative
>> > responses.
>> > Would it be possible to highlight the issues faced by ADF beginners
>> > in conferences like OOW 09 and DOAG 09 ? I guess most of ADF
>> > beginners would be happy if these issues are addressed in big events
>> > so that every one could come up with various ideas, measures or
>> > solutions that would accelarate the growth and popularity of ADF.
>> > Thanks & Regards
>> > Karthik Nag S
>> > On Aug 26, 10:21 pm, Simon Haslam <Sim...@veriton.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> I've discussed the ADF licensing question with others both online and
>> >> offline too. Originally I too was thinking there should be a free/XE
>> >> of ADF. However more recently I'm not so sure, as long as there are
>> >> reasonably priced entry level versions of OFM/WLS 11g.
>> >> ADF is not an open source project and does not have developers around
>> >> the world contributing their time to it for free - Oracle has to
>> >> employ them. Therefore for ADF to compete feature- and productivity-
>> >> wise with other frameworks Oracle has to continue investing money
>> into
>> >> its R&D. Now you could say that this investment should be cross-
>> >> subsidised from another part of the Oracle empire, and arguably when
>> >> you look at the improvements in ADF 10.1.3 and 11g over the last 2 or
>> >> 3 years this must already have been happening, but this isn't a
>> >> sustainable commercial model. So if you do that you then risk a bean
>> >> counter coming along and saying this is a loss making activity so
>> >> should be cut (not likely because of Fusion apps) - or funded
>> entirely
>> >> by Apps. Then if Apps were paying the bills what priority will be
>> >> given to the features that enterprise developers may need (e.g.
>> >> skinning so that it doesn't look like an Oracle app!) but Fusion Apps
>> >> don't..?
>> >> We also need to consider the target market for ADF, which in my
>> >> opinion, is existing Oracle users with enterprise-grade in-house
>> apps.
>> >> I'm not saying that licence fees are irrelevant, it's just that most
>> >> companies don't expect something for nothing. Hobbyists are allowed
>> to
>> >> do use ADF etc for free under the OTN licence, but then if you have
>> an
>> >> application that is worth deploying in a commercial environment
>> >> presumably it worth paying the licence for (in the same way as it is
>> >> worth paying the developer to write it, providing
>> hardware/electricity
>> >> to run it, etc).
Subject: Re: [ADF Enterprise Methodology Group] Re: Initiative to encourage ADF for beginners - "Thanks to Chris Muir for giving permission to post this to the group".
> Your message here is a little confused. When you say "deep", you
> imply expert. Then you imply the Java concepts of inheritance, dates,
> casting etc are basics. Which one is it? You can't have it both
> ways.
> Let's be honest. Those concepts *are* basic, in fact basic Java 101
> in my opinion. I've taught those same concepts in 2 hours to
> programmers, and they pick it up, it really isn't that hard, probably
> the hardest being object casting. If a programmer is struggling with
> these simple concepts I'd suggest they struggle with most computing
> problems.
> I won't disagree ADF programmers need to know those basic concepts,
> and I even go on to say the more Java knowledge programmers have the
> easier it becomes, but they don't need to be "experts" from day 1.
> This would be the core premise of Grant's presentation and one I've
> successfully used before. You need to remember that a lot of
> programmers looked at Java years ago and were put off by how much they
> had to program, even having to program their own ADF equivalents
> because there was nothing available or it was primitive. As such many
> found it a difficult if not impossible task because they really did
> need to be a Java expert to get anywhere (I shudder when imagining
> writing my own ADF equivalent). This anti-Java-bias can be maintained
> to today against Java and it's contemporary frameworks such as ADF.
> As such Grant's presentation is trying to break down those perceived
> biases to show what can be done with minimal Java knowledge, and also
> highlight how Oracle has undertaken a lot of work to reduce that Java
> barrier. Personally I've seen that barrier massively drop since 9.0.4-
> >10.1.2->10.1.3->11g, it really is much easier now. In fact we've
> offered an ADF course since 10.1.3 as it became possible to teach it
> in a week without having to spend another week learning Java (though
> again, I concede it does help).
> Finally the proof is in the ADF pudding (strawberry flavoured). My
> current client has just successfully implemented their first ADF
> application, and none of the programmers would consider themselves
> expert Java programmers. Their success in adopting ADF (besides
> training from my company which of course is A1!) has not been in
> becoming Java and ADF experts instantaneously, but biting off small
> problems and solving them 1 by 1 while buildng their skillsets.
> The issue of skillsets is one that will be discussed at OOW during the
> ADF EMG, I encourage all to attend please!
> Regards,
> CM.
> On Sep 23, 4:47 am, Florin Marcus <florin.mar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Grant!
> > I am confused about the title of your masterclass.
> > I believe that is close to impossible to create a production quality
> > Fusion application without having a deep understanding of Java and
> > OOP. Without that you won't be able to use inheritance of VO's, EO's
> > or AM's. Even the most humble developer is suppose to understand basic
> > things like formatting a date in java, casting, overriding a methods,
> > extending base classes.
Thanks for pointing about the problems the Oracle Forms developers
encountered when migrating the ADF way. From this perspective, I can
now understand where Grand Ronald is aiming.
Indeed my posting was confusing. What I wanted to say is that if you
start an ADF project you will need people with previous java
experience.
But I think I am off-topic here. Weather or not java experience is
needed when starting an ADF project perhaps should be a subject for a
different topic.
Thanks,
Florin Marcus
On Sep 23, 1:21 am, Chris Muir <chriscm...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Your message here is a little confused. When you say "deep", you
> imply expert. Then you imply the Java concepts of inheritance, dates,
> casting etc are basics. Which one is it? You can't have it both
> ways.
> Let's be honest. Those concepts *are* basic, in fact basic Java 101
> in my opinion. I've taught those same concepts in 2 hours to
> programmers, and they pick it up, it really isn't that hard, probably
> the hardest being object casting. If a programmer is struggling with
> these simple concepts I'd suggest they struggle with most computing
> problems.
> I won't disagree ADF programmers need to know those basic concepts,
> and I even go on to say the more Java knowledge programmers have the
> easier it becomes, but they don't need to be "experts" from day 1.
> This would be the core premise of Grant's presentation and one I've
> successfully used before. You need to remember that a lot of
> programmers looked at Java years ago and were put off by how much they
> had to program, even having to program their own ADF equivalents
> because there was nothing available or it was primitive. As such many
> found it a difficult if not impossible task because they really did
> need to be a Java expert to get anywhere (I shudder when imagining
> writing my own ADF equivalent). This anti-Java-bias can be maintained
> to today against Java and it's contemporary frameworks such as ADF.
> As such Grant's presentation is trying to break down those perceived
> biases to show what can be done with minimal Java knowledge, and also
> highlight how Oracle has undertaken a lot of work to reduce that Java
> barrier. Personally I've seen that barrier massively drop since 9.0.4->10.1.2->10.1.3->11g, it really is much easier now. In fact we've
> offered an ADF course since 10.1.3 as it became possible to teach it
> in a week without having to spend another week learning Java (though
> again, I concede it does help).
> Finally the proof is in the ADF pudding (strawberry flavoured). My
> current client has just successfully implemented their first ADF
> application, and none of the programmers would consider themselves
> expert Java programmers. Their success in adopting ADF (besides
> training from my company which of course is A1!) has not been in
> becoming Java and ADF experts instantaneously, but biting off small
> problems and solving them 1 by 1 while buildng their skillsets.
> The issue of skillsets is one that will be discussed at OOW during the
> ADF EMG, I encourage all to attend please!
> Regards,
> CM.
> On Sep 23, 4:47 am, Florin Marcus <florin.mar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Hi Grant!
> > I am confused about the title of your masterclass.
> > I believe that is close to impossible to create a production quality
> > Fusion application without having a deep understanding of Java and
> > OOP. Without that you won't be able to use inheritance of VO's, EO's
> > or AM's. Even the most humble developer is suppose to understand basic
> > things like formatting a date in java, casting, overriding a methods,
> > extending base classes.
> > All the best,
> > Florin Marcus- Hide quoted text -
Subject: Re: [ADF Enterprise Methodology Group] Re: Initiative to encourage ADF for beginners - "Thanks to Chris Muir for giving permission to post this to the group".
Hi Florin, I think Chris and Avrom have addressed the points I would have made. Of course, I could say "come along and you could actually hear what I say". :-) One of the first points I make in this masterclass is that I am NOT advocating that you don't need any Java skills - that would be ridiculous to made a strategic decision to develop on a platform and then say you don't expect to acquire any of the skills of that platform.
What I do, infact, is spent the next 2-3 hours (with only a couple of slides) building an application from start to finish with loads of features like validation, LOVs, searches, drag and drop, popups, maps, graphs etc etc. The point I'm making is how far you can go with virtually no Java coding.
Chris hits the nail on the head when he mentions about the perception of complexity. If you compare this to the "its all ponies and rainbows with Apex" (as one of my esteemed colleagues sarcastically joked :-) ) I think we need to discuss and address some of the complexities of the Java platform but also dispel alot of the FUD as well.
The concept of this masterclass was borne out from usability tests we did at ODTUG 18 months ago when nearly every user we survey had the pre-conception that Jdev/ADF was "too hard". It was only when I personally sat down with some of the delegates and showed them that they completely changed their minds. It also transpired that their "too hard" comments came from looking at the product back in the 3.2 or 9i days or, worse still, they were simply repeating an opinion they'd heard and had never actually used the product themselves.
Having run the masterclass (in various forms) over the past year the response has been hugely positive. As one delegate came up and told me afterwards "At last, I now get it". Its all very well explaining the power of task flows or the internals of the binding layer (hugely important stuff) but for much of Oracle's "traditional" install base often the first step is the hardest to take.
Hope maybe you can make it to one of my sessions some time.
Regards
Grant
> Thanks for pointing about the problems the Oracle Forms developers
> encountered when migrating the ADF way. From this perspective, I can
> now understand where Grand Ronald is aiming.
> Indeed my posting was confusing. What I wanted to say is that if you
> start an ADF project you will need people with previous java
> experience.
> But I think I am off-topic here. Weather or not java experience is
> needed when starting an ADF project perhaps should be a subject for a
> different topic.
> Thanks,
> Florin Marcus
> On Sep 23, 1:21 am, Chris Muir <chriscm...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi Florin
>> Your message here is a little confused. When you say "deep", you
>> imply expert. Then you imply the Java concepts of inheritance, dates,
>> casting etc are basics. Which one is it? You can't have it both
>> ways.
>> Let's be honest. Those concepts *are* basic, in fact basic Java 101
>> in my opinion. I've taught those same concepts in 2 hours to
>> programmers, and they pick it up, it really isn't that hard, probably
>> the hardest being object casting. If a programmer is struggling with
>> these simple concepts I'd suggest they struggle with most computing
>> problems.
>> I won't disagree ADF programmers need to know those basic concepts,
>> and I even go on to say the more Java knowledge programmers have the
>> easier it becomes, but they don't need to be "experts" from day 1.
>> This would be the core premise of Grant's presentation and one I've
>> successfully used before. You need to remember that a lot of
>> programmers looked at Java years ago and were put off by how much they
>> had to program, even having to program their own ADF equivalents
>> because there was nothing available or it was primitive. As such many
>> found it a difficult if not impossible task because they really did
>> need to be a Java expert to get anywhere (I shudder when imagining
>> writing my own ADF equivalent). This anti-Java-bias can be maintained
>> to today against Java and it's contemporary frameworks such as ADF.
>> As such Grant's presentation is trying to break down those perceived
>> biases to show what can be done with minimal Java knowledge, and also
>> highlight how Oracle has undertaken a lot of work to reduce that Java
>> barrier. Personally I've seen that barrier massively drop since 9.0.4->10.1.2->10.1.3->11g, it really is much easier now. In fact we've
>> offered an ADF course since 10.1.3 as it became possible to teach it
>> in a week without having to spend another week learning Java (though
>> again, I concede it does help).
>> Finally the proof is in the ADF pudding (strawberry flavoured). My
>> current client has just successfully implemented their first ADF
>> application, and none of the programmers would consider themselves
>> expert Java programmers. Their success in adopting ADF (besides
>> training from my company which of course is A1!) has not been in
>> becoming Java and ADF experts instantaneously, but biting off small
>> problems and solving them 1 by 1 while buildng their skillsets.
>> The issue of skillsets is one that will be discussed at OOW during the
>> ADF EMG, I encourage all to attend please!
>> Regards,
>> CM.
>> On Sep 23, 4:47 am, Florin Marcus <florin.mar...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi Grant!
>>> I am confused about the title of your masterclass.
>>> I believe that is close to impossible to create a production quality
>>> Fusion application without having a deep understanding of Java and
>>> OOP. Without that you won't be able to use inheritance of VO's, EO's
>>> or AM's. Even the most humble developer is suppose to understand basic
>>> things like formatting a date in java, casting, overriding a methods,
>>> extending base classes.
>>> All the best,
>>> Florin Marcus- Hide quoted text -
Just to chip in a couple of comments to this debate.
I can see how this title came about. For all the big conferences you
want to have a title that makes the session appealling - firstly as
part of getting your abstract accepted by the judges, and secondly to
encourage people to come along on the day (when delegates have
multiple, sometimes a dozen or more, sessions to choose from, and
often won't get round to reading the full abstracts). If this was an
advert though it would probably have to say:
"How to become a Fusion Developer with no* Java"
* Terms & Conditions Apply!
Earlier in the the life of ADF/BC4J Oracle went through a phase of
saying "don't worry - it's java - if there's something it doesn't do
you can extend it". I suppose this was all very well for a java market
(remember this was pre-Spring) but was not good at all, in my opinion,
for traditional Oracle-based organisations used to Forms and PL/SQL as
the subtext was "you could be up to your neck in java"!. So I guess
this session is trying to undo those earlier impressions (and
experiences) that some people will have had.
Finally there has been a collosal amount of work gone into Jdev over
the last 3 versions and we now have something that does most of what
you want, out of the box, for general business applications - i.e.
exactly where Forms sits. Every time I see Grant doing this kind of
presentation I'm always suprised by some other new thing ADF does as
standard now!
Simon
PS. So yes, maybe the title has a bit more marketing spin than most of
us in the ADF EMG would prefer... how about we all go along and cough
every time Grant shows a snippet of java on the screen (only
kidding!)?
PPS. a while back I started a discussion on this group about "what's
easy and what's hard to do in ADF" (http://groups.google.com/group/adf- methodology/browse_thread/thread/d029c71829f3236c) - maybe after OOW
I'll rejuvinate that in light of 11g.
I think the ADF with no Java session is a choice and pointer of best
practices. ADF is a Java EE framework and therefore not knowing Java
does not get you anywhere. ADF is good in providing declarative
gestures for what otherwise (or before) you would use Java for. For
example, in JDeveloer 11g we give you the ability to synchronize the
selected tree node with a ViewObject in the PageDef file so it becomes
easy to build master/detail forms or edit forms based on a selected
tree node. In earlier versions of ADF you had to code Java for this.
There is so much to discover in ADF that Grant's session is a must
attend. I did it once and - believe it or not - I learned about
features I wasn't aware of or forgot.
Knowing about Java is a must in ADF. Knowing when not to use Java in
ADF is a pleasure.
Frank
On Sep 23, 2:11 pm, Simon Haslam <Sim...@veriton.co.uk> wrote:
> Just to chip in a couple of comments to this debate.
> I can see how this title came about. For all the big conferences you
> want to have a title that makes the session appealling - firstly as
> part of getting your abstract accepted by the judges, and secondly to
> encourage people to come along on the day (when delegates have
> multiple, sometimes a dozen or more, sessions to choose from, and
> often won't get round to reading the full abstracts). If this was an
> advert though it would probably have to say:
> "How to become a Fusion Developer with no* Java"
> * Terms & Conditions Apply!
> Earlier in the the life of ADF/BC4J Oracle went through a phase of
> saying "don't worry - it's java - if there's something it doesn't do
> you can extend it". I suppose this was all very well for a java market
> (remember this was pre-Spring) but was not good at all, in my opinion,
> for traditional Oracle-based organisations used to Forms and PL/SQL as
> the subtext was "you could be up to your neck in java"!. So I guess
> this session is trying to undo those earlier impressions (and
> experiences) that some people will have had.
> Finally there has been a collosal amount of work gone into Jdev over
> the last 3 versions and we now have something that does most of what
> you want, out of the box, for general business applications - i.e.
> exactly where Forms sits. Every time I see Grant doing this kind of
> presentation I'm always suprised by some other new thing ADF does as
> standard now!
> Simon
> PS. So yes, maybe the title has a bit more marketing spin than most of
> us in the ADF EMG would prefer... how about we all go along and cough
> every time Grant shows a snippet of java on the screen (only
> kidding!)?
> PPS. a while back I started a discussion on this group about "what's
> easy and what's hard to do in ADF" (http://groups.google.com/group/adf- > methodology/browse_thread/thread/d029c71829f3236c) - maybe after OOW
> I'll rejuvinate that in light of 11g.
Would it be possible to collect all the proceedings and presentations
(i,e power point presentation's, video's of presentations & debates or
any other documents ) happening in OOW 09 and DOAG 09 and host them
in this group or Oracle home page for ADF, so that we developers who
cannot attend those sessions can have access to these materials and
download the same? I hope I am not asking for too many things ;)
Thanks & Regards
Karthik Nag S
On Sep 24, 10:38 am, fnimphiu <frank.nimph...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> I think the ADF with no Java session is a choice and pointer of best
> practices. ADF is a Java EE framework and therefore not knowing Java
> does not get you anywhere. ADF is good in providing declarative
> gestures for what otherwise (or before) you would use Java for. For
> example, in JDeveloer 11g we give you the ability to synchronize the
> selected tree node with a ViewObject in the PageDef file so it becomes
> easy to build master/detail forms or edit forms based on a selected
> tree node. In earlier versions of ADF you had to code Java for this.
> There is so much to discover in ADF that Grant's session is a must
> attend. I did it once and - believe it or not - I learned about
> features I wasn't aware of or forgot.
> Knowing about Java is a must in ADF. Knowing when not to use Java in
> ADF is a pleasure.
> Frank
> On Sep 23, 2:11 pm, Simon Haslam <Sim...@veriton.co.uk> wrote:
> > Just to chip in a couple of comments to this debate.
> > I can see how this title came about. For all the big conferences you
> > want to have a title that makes the session appealling - firstly as
> > part of getting your abstract accepted by the judges, and secondly to
> > encourage people to come along on the day (when delegates have
> > multiple, sometimes a dozen or more, sessions to choose from, and
> > often won't get round to reading the full abstracts). If this was an
> > advert though it would probably have to say:
> > "How to become a Fusion Developer with no* Java"
> > * Terms & Conditions Apply!
> > Earlier in the the life of ADF/BC4J Oracle went through a phase of
> > saying "don't worry - it's java - if there's something it doesn't do
> > you can extend it". I suppose this was all very well for a java market
> > (remember this was pre-Spring) but was not good at all, in my opinion,
> > for traditional Oracle-based organisations used to Forms and PL/SQL as
> > the subtext was "you could be up to your neck in java"!. So I guess
> > this session is trying to undo those earlier impressions (and
> > experiences) that some people will have had.
> > Finally there has been a collosal amount of work gone into Jdev over
> > the last 3 versions and we now have something that does most of what
> > you want, out of the box, for general business applications - i.e.
> > exactly where Forms sits. Every time I see Grant doing this kind of
> > presentation I'm always suprised by some other new thing ADF does as
> > standard now!
> > Simon
> > PS. So yes, maybe the title has a bit more marketing spin than most of
> > us in the ADF EMG would prefer... how about we all go along and cough
> > every time Grant shows a snippet of java on the screen (only
> > kidding!)?
> > PPS. a while back I started a discussion on this group about "what's
> > easy and what's hard to do in ADF" (http://groups.google.com/group/adf- > > methodology/browse_thread/thread/d029c71829f3236c) - maybe after OOW
> > I'll rejuvinate that in light of 11g.
We try to publish all the ADF EMG content on the ADF EMG wiki pages,
so everyone has access to the content we've discussed and presented
during User group events and the outcomes from the discussions in the
group.
We will try to encourage people that have given presentations, outside
the ADF EMG, at user groups, to publish these presentations at the
wiki-page.
Kind regards,
Nathalie
On Sep 25, 8:40 am, Karthik Nag <karthiknag....@gmail.com> wrote:
> Would it be possible to collect all the proceedings and presentations
> (i,e power point presentation's, video's of presentations & debates or
> any other documents ) happening in OOW 09 and DOAG 09 and host them
> in this group or Oracle home page for ADF, so that we developers who
> cannot attend those sessions can have access to these materials and
> download the same? I hope I am not asking for too many things ;)
> Thanks & Regards
> Karthik Nag S
> On Sep 24, 10:38 am, fnimphiu <frank.nimph...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > I think the ADF with no Java session is a choice and pointer of best
> > practices. ADF is a Java EE framework and therefore not knowing Java
> > does not get you anywhere. ADF is good in providing declarative
> > gestures for what otherwise (or before) you would use Java for. For
> > example, in JDeveloer 11g we give you the ability to synchronize the
> > selected tree node with a ViewObject in the PageDef file so it becomes
> > easy to build master/detail forms or edit forms based on a selected
> > tree node. In earlier versions of ADF you had to code Java for this.
> > There is so much to discover in ADF that Grant's session is a must
> > attend. I did it once and - believe it or not - I learned about
> > features I wasn't aware of or forgot.
> > Knowing about Java is a must in ADF. Knowing when not to use Java in
> > ADF is a pleasure.
> > Frank
> > On Sep 23, 2:11 pm, Simon Haslam <Sim...@veriton.co.uk> wrote:
> > > Just to chip in a couple of comments to this debate.
> > > I can see how this title came about. For all the big conferences you
> > > want to have a title that makes the session appealling - firstly as
> > > part of getting your abstract accepted by the judges, and secondly to
> > > encourage people to come along on the day (when delegates have
> > > multiple, sometimes a dozen or more, sessions to choose from, and
> > > often won't get round to reading the full abstracts). If this was an
> > > advert though it would probably have to say:
> > > "How to become a Fusion Developer with no* Java"
> > > * Terms & Conditions Apply!
> > > Earlier in the the life of ADF/BC4J Oracle went through a phase of
> > > saying "don't worry - it's java - if there's something it doesn't do
> > > you can extend it". I suppose this was all very well for a java market
> > > (remember this was pre-Spring) but was not good at all, in my opinion,
> > > for traditional Oracle-based organisations used to Forms and PL/SQL as
> > > the subtext was "you could be up to your neck in java"!. So I guess
> > > this session is trying to undo those earlier impressions (and
> > > experiences) that some people will have had.
> > > Finally there has been a collosal amount of work gone into Jdev over
> > > the last 3 versions and we now have something that does most of what
> > > you want, out of the box, for general business applications - i.e.
> > > exactly where Forms sits. Every time I see Grant doing this kind of
> > > presentation I'm always suprised by some other new thing ADF does as
> > > standard now!
> > > Simon
> > > PS. So yes, maybe the title has a bit more marketing spin than most of
> > > us in the ADF EMG would prefer... how about we all go along and cough
> > > every time Grant shows a snippet of java on the screen (only
> > > kidding!)?
> > > PPS. a while back I started a discussion on this group about "what's
> > > easy and what's hard to do in ADF" (http://groups.google.com/group/adf- > > > methodology/browse_thread/thread/d029c71829f3236c) - maybe after OOW
> > > I'll rejuvinate that in light of 11g.- Hide quoted text -
|
