I'm writing a piece about template-based site-builder tools like
Homestead [!] and such, and I could really do with everyone's input
about the best and worst things out there, along with opinions about
what makes them good or bad.
Maybe you can ask if there's even one tool like that that lets you
have full control if you want to.
From what I've seen the closest is Blogger. And even then there are
some inherent errors you will never be able to get rid of. But the
progrmamers at Blogger might be able to do it with a bit if extra
effort.
A nasty one I've used is RVSiteBuilder, which is bundled into Cpanel
on my hosting account.
Between total inability to modify the template (or I've not found the
way) and stupid upgrades to the software (that happen when Cpanel
decides to do it) that destroy the site that's already been built with
that tool (all menu links revert to original mock links default from
before having entered the information) it's a most frustrating
experience.
> I'm writing a piece about template-based site-builder tools like
> Homestead [!] and such, and I could really do with everyone's input
> about the best and worst things out there, along with opinions about
> what makes them good or bad.
We looked at this a while back, alongside a community/business support
group that wanted to find the best tool for very small businesses/sole
traders. There is a real need but have to say that our search failed,
some better than others but as Webado said, lack of control is always
a problem.
Can offer a few points, although I suspect you will be ahead of me:
Shared hosting web builders - A variety of names but most based on the
same/similar platform and universally chronic. Beyond somewhere to put
your photos for friends and family, not worth considering.
Free Blogs - In a sense, the best platform for those who want to have
their say. Blogger and Wordpress seem to be well liked, although we
did have a number of votes for Typepad. Know little about this, so
can't really comment.
Out of the box (or pretty much) - Essentially an offline version of
the hosted site builders, often with online links and about the same
standard, fairly hopeless.
Web design software - Low cost/free tools abound, from Page Breeze to
Net Objects Fusion. Generally producing poorly coded sites, with one
exception, WebX5. The Italian developers of this were quite
supportive, gave us a free copy of the software, lots of input and did
listen. The main advantage of this tool is the fact the code produced
is invariably perfect XHTML, 100% valid and has few if any cross
browser problems. About the only CSS errors tend to be colour
warnings. An immediate downside is the problem of visual design, if
you don't like any of their templates, a fair bit of work for
inexperienced people to get round that.
This leads back to repeating the main problem with all these tools,
you are not in control, they are. With WebX5, you could build a site
locally on your PC, in the normal way but whatever they tried to do,
the software never supported incrimental updating. So even with a
routine of saving your own copy away from the builder, altering all
tags, any needed tweaks, if you used the tool to change one sentence,
the whole page reverted to original format. As the best candidate, a
couple of people did build a site with this and that functioned well,
search engines were fairly happy but any form of site management/
updates was tortuous.
Our conclusion, right or wrong, was that what people are looking for
(if they understood what they should be looking for) does not exist.
Apart from lack of control, with the slightly more useful tools, the
learning curve is not far short of learning basic use for HTML/CSS.
Our current stance is for anyone wanting to build a site themselves,
we recommend learning XHTML/CSS and perhaps choosing/downloading a
free template from one of the open source sites. This sets them on the
right road, they only have to learn what they need to get their own
site going to start with, the chance is there to develop and they are
in control.
To my mind, unless there's a site builder/template based design tool
we missed, they are not an answer. They're sold on the basis of "No
skill needed" but this is nonsense. They can be hard to master,
overcoming what should be basic problems near impossible, limit site
development, make code/browser/search engine compliance long winded
and are basically, a wrongfully sold product. A little like selling
someone who needs to rebuild their car engine a £3 plastic tool kit,
they might get far enough to have problems but won't overcome them.
> Maybe you can ask if there's even one tool like that that lets you
> have full control if you want to.
> From what I've seen the closest is Blogger. And even then there are
> some inherent errors you will never be able to get rid of. But the
> progrmamers at Blogger might be able to do it with a bit if extra
> effort.
> A nasty one I've used is RVSiteBuilder, which is bundled into Cpanel
> on my hosting account.
> Between total inability to modify the template (or I've not found the
> way) and stupid upgrades to the software (that happen when Cpanel
> decides to do it) that destroy the site that's already been built with
> that tool (all menu links revert to original mock links default from
> before having entered the information) it's a most frustrating
> experience.
> On Dec 2, 5:27 am, Sasch wrote:
> > Hi guys
> > I'm writing a piece about template-based site-builder tools like
> > Homestead [!] and such, and I could really do with everyone's input
> > about the best and worst things out there, along with opinions about
> > what makes them good or bad.
RVSiteBuilder is on the list of stuff to stay away from now. ;-)
Terry
I hear you.
Basically, what I'm doing is an extended piece about learning to
create your own site. Part of this is meant to cover the pros & cons
of these template-driven pieces of sh*t, except it seems that there
simply are no pros at all.
I guess what it'll have to amount to is a list of stuff to steer clear
of and a few things to use if you're desperate. You're absolutely
right though about learning curves and opting for HTML/CSS instead of
trying to learn a crap editor. The problem here is the simple fact
that an awful lot of people seem to be utterly intimidated by the
thought of learning even these simple components because 'IT'S CODE
INNIT?' and they're so taken aback by that fact, they don't stop for a
second to see that it's not really that difficult an entry-point at
all.
A few years back I wrote a basic piece entitled 'The evolution of a
web designer' which illustrated how only a few of the many people who
decide to dabble with web design actually have the desire &
persistence to learn about what's needed to build decent sites. That
was the end of 2005 [I think] and, if anything, people's willingness
to learn the proper way has diminished since then.
Face it; I guess we all want to make 'BIG $$$' without having to
work. ;-)
We see that in here every day of the week. :-)
--
Anyhoo... Could I have some general opinions on Homestead &
WebsiteTonight and the stuff Godaddy throws at newbies please if
anyone knows anything about them? ;-)
> We looked at this a while back, alongside a community/business support
> group that wanted to find the best tool for very small businesses/sole
> traders. There is a real need but have to say that our search failed,
> some better than others but as Webado said, lack of control is always
> a problem.
> Can offer a few points, although I suspect you will be ahead of me:
> Shared hosting web builders - A variety of names but most based on the
> same/similar platform and universally chronic. Beyond somewhere to put
> your photos for friends and family, not worth considering.
> Free Blogs - In a sense, the best platform for those who want to have
> their say. Blogger and Wordpress seem to be well liked, although we
> did have a number of votes for Typepad. Know little about this, so
> can't really comment.
> Out of the box (or pretty much) - Essentially an offline version of
> the hosted site builders, often with online links and about the same
> standard, fairly hopeless.
> Web design software - Low cost/free tools abound, from Page Breeze to
> Net Objects Fusion. Generally producing poorly coded sites, with one
> exception, WebX5. The Italian developers of this were quite
> supportive, gave us a free copy of the software, lots of input and did
> listen. The main advantage of this tool is the fact the code produced
> is invariably perfect XHTML, 100% valid and has few if any cross
> browser problems. About the only CSS errors tend to be colour
> warnings. An immediate downside is the problem of visual design, if
> you don't like any of their templates, a fair bit of work for
> inexperienced people to get round that.
> This leads back to repeating the main problem with all these tools,
> you are not in control, they are. With WebX5, you could build a site
> locally on your PC, in the normal way but whatever they tried to do,
> the software never supported incrimental updating. So even with a
> routine of saving your own copy away from the builder, altering all
> tags, any needed tweaks, if you used the tool to change one sentence,
> the whole page reverted to original format. As the best candidate, a
> couple of people did build a site with this and that functioned well,
> search engines were fairly happy but any form of site management/
> updates was tortuous.
> Our conclusion, right or wrong, was that what people are looking for
> (if they understood what they should be looking for) does not exist.
> Apart from lack of control, with the slightly more useful tools, the
> learning curve is not far short of learning basic use for HTML/CSS.
> Our current stance is for anyone wanting to build a site themselves,
> we recommend learning XHTML/CSS and perhaps choosing/downloading a
> free template from one of the open source sites. This sets them on the
> right road, they only have to learn what they need to get their own
> site going to start with, the chance is there to develop and they are
> in control.
> To my mind, unless there's a site builder/template based design tool
> we missed, they are not an answer. They're sold on the basis of "No
> skill needed" but this is nonsense. They can be hard to master,
> overcoming what should be basic problems near impossible, limit site
> development, make code/browser/search engine compliance long winded
> and are basically, a wrongfully sold product. A little like selling
> someone who needs to rebuild their car engine a £3 plastic tool kit,
> they might get far enough to have problems but won't overcome them.
> On Dec 2, 1:53 pm, webado wrote:
> > Maybe you can ask if there's even one tool like that that lets you
> > have full control if you want to.
> > From what I've seen the closest is Blogger. And even then there are
> > some inherent errors you will never be able to get rid of. But the
> > progrmamers at Blogger might be able to do it with a bit if extra
> > effort.
> > A nasty one I've used is RVSiteBuilder, which is bundled into Cpanel
> > on my hosting account.
> > Between total inability to modify the template (or I've not found the
> > way) and stupid upgrades to the software (that happen when Cpanel
> > decides to do it) that destroy the site that's already been built with
> > that tool (all menu links revert to original mock links default from
> > before having entered the information) it's a most frustrating
> > experience.
> > On Dec 2, 5:27 am, Sasch wrote:
> > > Hi guys
> > > I'm writing a piece about template-based site-builder tools like
> > > Homestead [!] and such, and I could really do with everyone's input
> > > about the best and worst things out there, along with opinions about
> > > what makes them good or bad.
I've used HomeSite for eight years. It allows me to make templates if
I wish but what I like most about HomeSite is that every line of code
or script is my own creation, not the creation of a program. HomeSite
has a validator almost as good as w3 plus scripting tweaks I haven't
even tried yet. One must know atleast html or xml and CSS but I
believe in cooking from scratch:) because if it's my own code I could
revise a page using nothing but WordPad.
> RVSiteBuilder is on the list of stuff to stay away from now. ;-)
> Terry
> I hear you.
> Basically, what I'm doing is an extended piece about learning to
> create your own site. Part of this is meant to cover the pros & cons
> of these template-driven pieces of sh*t, except it seems that there
> simply are no pros at all.
> I guess what it'll have to amount to is a list of stuff to steer clear
> of and a few things to use if you're desperate. You're absolutely
> right though about learning curves and opting for HTML/CSS instead of
> trying to learn a crap editor. The problem here is the simple fact
> that an awful lot of people seem to be utterly intimidated by the
> thought of learning even these simple components because 'IT'S CODE
> INNIT?' and they're so taken aback by that fact, they don't stop for a
> second to see that it's not really that difficult an entry-point at
> all.
> A few years back I wrote a basic piece entitled 'The evolution of a
> web designer' which illustrated how only a few of the many people who
> decide to dabble with web design actually have the desire &
> persistence to learn about what's needed to build decent sites. That
> was the end of 2005 [I think] and, if anything, people's willingness
> to learn the proper way has diminished since then.
> Face it; I guess we all want to make 'BIG $$$' without having to
> work. ;-)
> We see that in here every day of the week. :-)
> --
> Anyhoo... Could I have some general opinions on Homestead &
> WebsiteTonight and the stuff Godaddy throws at newbies please if
> anyone knows anything about them? ;-)
> On Dec 3, 12:32 am, Chibcha wrote:
> > Hi Sasch
> > We looked at this a while back, alongside a community/business support
> > group that wanted to find the best tool for very small businesses/sole
> > traders. There is a real need but have to say that our search failed,
> > some better than others but as Webado said, lack of control is always
> > a problem.
> > Can offer a few points, although I suspect you will be ahead of me:
> > Shared hosting web builders - A variety of names but most based on the
> > same/similar platform and universally chronic. Beyond somewhere to put
> > your photos for friends and family, not worth considering.
> > Free Blogs - In a sense, the best platform for those who want to have
> > their say. Blogger and Wordpress seem to be well liked, although we
> > did have a number of votes for Typepad. Know little about this, so
> > can't really comment.
> > Out of the box (or pretty much) - Essentially an offline version of
> > the hosted site builders, often with online links and about the same
> > standard, fairly hopeless.
> > Web design software - Low cost/free tools abound, from Page Breeze to
> > Net Objects Fusion. Generally producing poorly coded sites, with one
> > exception, WebX5. The Italian developers of this were quite
> > supportive, gave us a free copy of the software, lots of input and did
> > listen. The main advantage of this tool is the fact the code produced
> > is invariably perfect XHTML, 100% valid and has few if any cross
> > browser problems. About the only CSS errors tend to be colour
> > warnings. An immediate downside is the problem of visual design, if
> > you don't like any of their templates, a fair bit of work for
> > inexperienced people to get round that.
> > This leads back to repeating the main problem with all these tools,
> > you are not in control, they are. With WebX5, you could build a site
> > locally on your PC, in the normal way but whatever they tried to do,
> > the software never supported incrimental updating. So even with a
> > routine of saving your own copy away from the builder, altering all
> > tags, any needed tweaks, if you used the tool to change one sentence,
> > the whole page reverted to original format. As the best candidate, a
> > couple of people did build a site with this and that functioned well,
> > search engines were fairly happy but any form of site management/
> > updates was tortuous.
> > Our conclusion, right or wrong, was that what people are looking for
> > (if they understood what they should be looking for) does not exist.
> > Apart from lack of control, with the slightly more useful tools, the
> > learning curve is not far short of learning basic use for HTML/CSS.
> > Our current stance is for anyone wanting to build a site themselves,
> > we recommend learning XHTML/CSS and perhaps choosing/downloading a
> > free template from one of the open source sites. This sets them on the
> > right road, they only have to learn what they need to get their own
> > site going to start with, the chance is there to develop and they are
> > in control.
> > To my mind, unless there's a site builder/template based design tool
> > we missed, they are not an answer. They're sold on the basis of "No
> > skill needed" but this is nonsense. They can be hard to master,
> > overcoming what should be basic problems near impossible, limit site
> > development, make code/browser/search engine compliance long winded
> > and are basically, a wrongfully sold product. A little like selling
> > someone who needs to rebuild their car engine a £3 plastic tool kit,
> > they might get far enough to have problems but won't overcome them.
> > On Dec 2, 1:53 pm, webado wrote:
> > > Maybe you can ask if there's even one tool like that that lets you
> > > have full control if you want to.
> > > From what I've seen the closest is Blogger. And even then there are
> > > some inherent errors you will never be able to get rid of. But the
> > > progrmamers at Blogger might be able to do it with a bit if extra
> > > effort.
> > > A nasty one I've used is RVSiteBuilder, which is bundled into Cpanel
> > > on my hosting account.
> > > Between total inability to modify the template (or I've not found the
> > > way) and stupid upgrades to the software (that happen when Cpanel
> > > decides to do it) that destroy the site that's already been built with
> > > that tool (all menu links revert to original mock links default from
> > > before having entered the information) it's a most frustrating
> > > experience.
> > > On Dec 2, 5:27 am, Sasch wrote:
> > > > Hi guys
> > > > I'm writing a piece about template-based site-builder tools like
> > > > Homestead [!] and such, and I could really do with everyone's input
> > > > about the best and worst things out there, along with opinions about
> > > > what makes them good or bad.
> I've used HomeSite for eight years. It allows me to make templates if
> I wish but what I like most about HomeSite is that every line of code
> or script is my own creation, not the creation of a program. HomeSite
> has a validator almost as good as w3 plus scripting tweaks I haven't
> even tried yet. One must know atleast html or xml and CSS but I
> believe in cooking from scratch:) because if it's my own code I could
> revise a page using nothing but WordPad.
> On Dec 3, 7:37 am, Sasch wrote:
> > Thanks Chris
> > RVSiteBuilder is on the list of stuff to stay away from now. ;-)
> > Terry
> > I hear you.
> > Basically, what I'm doing is an extended piece about learning to
> > create your own site. Part of this is meant to cover the pros & cons
> > of these template-driven pieces of sh*t, except it seems that there
> > simply are no pros at all.
> > I guess what it'll have to amount to is a list of stuff to steer clear
> > of and a few things to use if you're desperate. You're absolutely
> > right though about learning curves and opting for HTML/CSS instead of
> > trying to learn a crap editor. The problem here is the simple fact
> > that an awful lot of people seem to be utterly intimidated by the
> > thought of learning even these simple components because 'IT'S CODE
> > INNIT?' and they're so taken aback by that fact, they don't stop for a
> > second to see that it's not really that difficult an entry-point at
> > all.
> > A few years back I wrote a basic piece entitled 'The evolution of a
> > web designer' which illustrated how only a few of the many people who
> > decide to dabble with web design actually have the desire &
> > persistence to learn about what's needed to build decent sites. That
> > was the end of 2005 [I think] and, if anything, people's willingness
> > to learn the proper way has diminished since then.
> > Face it; I guess we all want to make 'BIG $$$' without having to
> > work. ;-)
> > We see that in here every day of the week. :-)
> > --
> > Anyhoo... Could I have some general opinions on Homestead &
> > WebsiteTonight and the stuff Godaddy throws at newbies please if
> > anyone knows anything about them? ;-)
> > On Dec 3, 12:32 am, Chibcha wrote:
> > > Hi Sasch
> > > We looked at this a while back, alongside a community/business support
> > > group that wanted to find the best tool for very small businesses/sole
> > > traders. There is a real need but have to say that our search failed,
> > > some better than others but as Webado said, lack of control is always
> > > a problem.
> > > Can offer a few points, although I suspect you will be ahead of me:
> > > Shared hosting web builders - A variety of names but most based on the
> > > same/similar platform and universally chronic. Beyond somewhere to put
> > > your photos for friends and family, not worth considering.
> > > Free Blogs - In a sense, the best platform for those who want to have
> > > their say. Blogger and Wordpress seem to be well liked, although we
> > > did have a number of votes for Typepad. Know little about this, so
> > > can't really comment.
> > > Out of the box (or pretty much) - Essentially an offline version of
> > > the hosted site builders, often with online links and about the same
> > > standard, fairly hopeless.
> > > Web design software - Low cost/free tools abound, from Page Breeze to
> > > Net Objects Fusion. Generally producing poorly coded sites, with one
> > > exception, WebX5. The Italian developers of this were quite
> > > supportive, gave us a free copy of the software, lots of input and did
> > > listen. The main advantage of this tool is the fact the code produced
> > > is invariably perfect XHTML, 100% valid and has few if any cross
> > > browser problems. About the only CSS errors tend to be colour
> > > warnings. An immediate downside is the problem of visual design, if
> > > you don't like any of their templates, a fair bit of work for
> > > inexperienced people to get round that.
> > > This leads back to repeating the main problem with all these tools,
> > > you are not in control, they are. With WebX5, you could build a site
> > > locally on your PC, in the normal way but whatever they tried to do,
> > > the software never supported incrimental updating. So even with a
> > > routine of saving your own copy away from the builder, altering all
> > > tags, any needed tweaks, if you used the tool to change one sentence,
> > > the whole page reverted to original format. As the best candidate, a
> > > couple of people did build a site with this and that functioned well,
> > > search engines were fairly happy but any form of site management/
> > > updates was tortuous.
> > > Our conclusion, right or wrong, was that what people are looking for
> > > (if they understood what they should be looking for) does not exist.
> > > Apart from lack of control, with the slightly more useful tools, the
> > > learning curve is not far short of learning basic use for HTML/CSS.
> > > Our current stance is for anyone wanting to build a site themselves,
> > > we recommend learning XHTML/CSS and perhaps choosing/downloading a
> > > free template from one of the open source sites. This sets them on the
> > > right road, they only have to learn what they need to get their own
> > > site going to start with, the chance is there to develop and they are
> > > in control.
> > > To my mind, unless there's a site builder/template based design tool
> > > we missed, they are not an answer. They're sold on the basis of "No
> > > skill needed" but this is nonsense. They can be hard to master,
> > > overcoming what should be basic problems near impossible, limit site
> > > development, make code/browser/search engine compliance long winded
> > > and are basically, a wrongfully sold product. A little like selling
> > > someone who needs to rebuild their car engine a £3 plastic tool kit,
> > > they might get far enough to have problems but won't overcome them.
> > > On Dec 2, 1:53 pm, webado wrote:
> > > > Maybe you can ask if there's even one tool like that that lets you
> > > > have full control if you want to.
> > > > From what I've seen the closest is Blogger. And even then there are
> > > > some inherent errors you will never be able to get rid of. But the
> > > > progrmamers at Blogger might be able to do it with a bit if extra
> > > > effort.
> > > > A nasty one I've used is RVSiteBuilder, which is bundled into Cpanel
> > > > on my hosting account.
> > > > Between total inability to modify the template (or I've not found the
> > > > way) and stupid upgrades to the software (that happen when Cpanel
> > > > decides to do it) that destroy the site that's already been built with
> > > > that tool (all menu links revert to original mock links default from
> > > > before having entered the information) it's a most frustrating
> > > > experience.
> > > > On Dec 2, 5:27 am, Sasch wrote:
> > > > > Hi guys
> > > > > I'm writing a piece about template-based site-builder tools like
> > > > > Homestead [!] and such, and I could really do with everyone's input
> > > > > about the best and worst things out there, along with opinions about
> > > > > what makes them good or bad.
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