> > They have clients in ultra-competitive niches with keyphrases
> > such as “debt consolidation”, or phrases targeting Florida or
> > Las Vegas."
> > The majority of such websites are scams or at least very lame IMO.
> I rather think the point was that an SEO firm who can effectively &
> successfully promote a client's site in cut-throat sectors such as
> "debt consolidation" would be very capable in its field, and would
> therefore be a better choice than one which could only show success
> promoting "cowboy boots for six-toed cowboys". :-D
> Nevertheless... Ash... there is something deeply unsettling about the
> way you 'thumb up' in your mugshot. ;-)
> On Aug 24, 12:14 am, webado wrote:
> > What's this got to do with anything?
> > " They have clients in ultra-competitive niches with keyphrases
> > such
> > as “debt consolidation”, or phrases targeting Florida or Las Vegas."
> > The majority of such websites are scams or at least very lame IMO. If
> > I were to be in any way approached by one of those I'd refuse to take
> > them on for anything (though I generally don't even do SEO, just site
> > cleanups and tune-ups which may eventually give better results if the
> > content is worthy in the first place - but I won't usually write their
> > content for them). I'd not take them on and I'd even tell them get out
> > and do something more worthwhile, the web doesn't need another site of
> > this nature, does it?
> > On Aug 23, 10:14 am, trainSEM wrote:
> > > Finding a talented search engine optimiser is difficult. Yes, there
> > > are hundreds of individuals and companies who claim to offer SEO
> > > services. Sadly, their portfolios do not show evidence of anything
> > > beyond basic knowledge of SEO. Such service providers survive because
> > > many businesses don’t have much competition for their keyphrases and
> > > they rank high with minimal effort.
> > > Listing major companies as clients is a better indicator of sales
> > > prowess than SEO skills. Appearing in lists of “Top 10 SEO companies”
> > > means they probably advertise on those websites – once they stop
> > > advertising, they mysteriously drop off the top 10 list.
> > > Here are some clues to help you find a good operator:
> > > • The owner’s name and contact details are on their website.
> > > • There are no spelling or grammatical errors on their website.
> > > • They do not resort to email spamming to get your attention.
> > > • The owner participates in meaningful discussions at quality SEO
> > > forums.
> > > • The owner speaks at public seminars or writes for leading
> > > publications (about SEO topics).
> > > • They have clients in ultra-competitive niches with keyphrases such
> > > as “debt consolidation”, or phrases targeting Florida or Las Vegas.
> > > • Their website ranks high for “search engine optimization” and
> > > related keyphrases.- Hide quoted text -
> Well...... as an SEO guy I would obviously prefer that SEO did exist.
If you mean avioding mistakes that may prevent search engines to
evalute your content to rank in the place where it should be according
to the verdict made by visitors then SEO may exist. But in this means
SEO is just a purely technical thing. And has nothing to do with the
so popular "top 10 rankings" that is proudly advertised and quoted ny
"SEO" companies- as reaching that is really far away from any
technical trick in any competitive areas.
As Webado told- it is site cleanup.
> Can they quote existing, satisfied clients?
If you have 2000 clients and only 10% of them is satisfied you can
stuff you site with testimonials.
> Decent SEO
> companies exist for the same reason that decent advertising companies
> exist, decent designers exist, decent engineers exist etc etc etc.
Show me one, I'll hire them.
> A
> site owner is very rarely good at everything and there aren't many
> sites that could claim to be absolutely perfect.......
Where the "site owner" is present it's by default a not professional
comapny/start-up business. And if it's a company just starting it's
business then it's would be one of the worst ideas to hire a SEO- a
startup business is usually needs money&business modell&communication
strategy or let's say simply knowlegde and financial resources. With
SEO you you only achive complete dependance on the changing
algorythms of search engines.
And after rankings lost you'll end up here saying Google ruined my
business.
> Well...... as an SEO guy I would obviously prefer that SEO did exist.
> However, I'd be quite happy to dispose of around 99% of people who
> claim to be good at it. I am equally happy to say 'no' to the majority
> of potential clients I'm approached by.
> How to choose a good SEO person? I'd say ethical and effective are
> virtually everything that matters. Can 'your' SEO specialist promise
> that they won't take on more than one client in the same field of
> business? Can they quote existing, satisfied clients? Will they offer
> to promote a site that doesn't offer a good, and relevant, product or
> service?
> To say that SEO shouldn't exist is too simplistic. Decent SEO
> companies exist for the same reason that decent advertising companies
> exist, decent designers exist, decent engineers exist etc etc etc. A
> site owner is very rarely good at everything and there aren't many
> sites that could claim to be absolutely perfect.......
> On Jul 28, 1:56 pm, BBdeath wrote:
> > Totally agreed. SEO should not exist- sites are made for visitors, and
> > in fact visitors in most cases are more strict judges than search
> > engines.
> > Otherwise we can turn the whole thing upside down: if visitors like a
> > site and appreciate the content, the services, the whole experiance of
> > the site then it is the job of search engines to find and rank it
> > highly.
> > On Jul 27, 11:27 am, Sasch wrote:
> > > > That, unfortunately, makes up the lion's share of the industry. If I
> > > > had a cent for every time I'd seen someone selling 'SEO' because they
> > > > have the latest version of IBP...
> > > Amen... that and WebCEO...
> > > Face it; SEO is just another buzzword, much like 'Multi-Media' was in
> > > its day or 'Web 2.0' is now...
> > > I also think it's in the process of fizzling out, as far as the buzz
> > > is concerned.- Hide quoted text -
> Listing major companies as clients is a better indicator of sales
> prowess than SEO skills.
The rankings of major companies have rarely do anything with SEO
(except site cleanup years ago), it comes from the whole communication
strategy of the companies.
> • There are no spelling or grammatical errors on their website.
It only shows that you can pay somebody to check spelling. And usually
serious companies can afford this luxury.
> • They do not resort to email spamming to get your attention.
In fact this has nothing to do with the quality of service. It's about
business etchics that the company respect the rules or not. And
probably you do not want to hire personal defence services from a
serial killer.
> • The owner participates in meaningful discussions at quality SEO
> forums.
There are no quality SEO forums. There are some good technical help
forums, like this. Not called "SEO help group" but "webamsters help
group".
> • They have clients in ultra-competitive niches with keyphrases such
> as “debt consolidation”, or phrases targeting Florida or Las Vegas.
"debt consolidation" has approximataly 1/5 of search volume of "seo"
in English language areas according to Google trends, so it is really
far away to be considered as "ultra compatitive".
> • The owner speaks at public seminars or writes for leading
> publications (about SEO topics).
Popularity is not about knowledge. For me it's a very bad reputation
if somebody talks about SEO at all.
> • Their website ranks high for “search engine optimization” and
> related keyphrases.
For "search engine optimization" is not a really popular search term
(1/50 of SEO) so this only tells me that you are unable to determine
the important keywords- which is a basic thing in online marketing.
> Finding a talented search engine optimiser is difficult. Yes, there
> are hundreds of individuals and companies who claim to offer SEO
> services. Sadly, their portfolios do not show evidence of anything
> beyond basic knowledge of SEO. Such service providers survive because
> many businesses don’t have much competition for their keyphrases and
> they rank high with minimal effort.
> Listing major companies as clients is a better indicator of sales
> prowess than SEO skills. Appearing in lists of “Top 10 SEO companies”
> means they probably advertise on those websites – once they stop
> advertising, they mysteriously drop off the top 10 list.
> Here are some clues to help you find a good operator:
> • The owner’s name and contact details are on their website.
> • There are no spelling or grammatical errors on their website.
> • They do not resort to email spamming to get your attention.
> • The owner participates in meaningful discussions at quality SEO
> forums.
> • The owner speaks at public seminars or writes for leading
> publications (about SEO topics).
> • They have clients in ultra-competitive niches with keyphrases such
> as “debt consolidation”, or phrases targeting Florida or Las Vegas.
> • Their website ranks high for “search engine optimization” and
> related keyphrases.
In general you make some good points, but the ultra-competitive item
is a little worrying. While the top SEOs will dabble in these niches,
we all know that when you go to that level you also tend to find a lot
more people stepping outside the norm. It's a fact of life that ultra-
competitive niches are noted for massive link-buying campaigns and
often seriously underhand SEO. If you saw how many bans and penalties
are handed out in UK finance sector you'd have an eye-opener. The sums
of money involved are also massive.
The other thing about ultra-competitive SEOs - they are not going to
work with mom-and-pop stuff for sure. I very much doubt Google wants
to promote the big SEOs in any way, shape or form.
> Finding a talented search engine optimiser is difficult. Yes, there
> are hundreds of individuals and companies who claim to offer SEO
> services. Sadly, their portfolios do not show evidence of anything
> beyond basic knowledge of SEO. Such service providers survive because
> many businesses don’t have much competition for their keyphrases and
> they rank high with minimal effort.
> Listing major companies as clients is a better indicator of sales
> prowess than SEO skills. Appearing in lists of “Top 10 SEO companies”
> means they probably advertise on those websites – once they stop
> advertising, they mysteriously drop off the top 10 list.
> Here are some clues to help you find a good operator:
> • The owner’s name and contact details are on their website.
> • There are no spelling or grammatical errors on their website.
> • They do not resort to email spamming to get your attention.
> • The owner participates in meaningful discussions at quality SEO
> forums.
> • The owner speaks at public seminars or writes for leading
> publications (about SEO topics).
> • They have clients in ultra-competitive niches with keyphrases such
> as “debt consolidation”, or phrases targeting Florida or Las Vegas.
> • Their website ranks high for “search engine optimization” and
> related keyphrases.
> > • There are no spelling or grammatical errors on their website.
> It only shows that you can pay somebody to check spelling. And usually
> serious companies can afford this luxury.
Actually... one very memorable client back in the early days did
extremely well selling 'Smoked Hadock', because apparently the general
public didn't know how to spell properly either. Occasionally, the
whole spelling thing can work in your favour.
> > • Their website ranks high for “search engine optimization” and
> > related keyphrases.
> For "search engine optimization" is not a really popular search term
> (1/50 of SEO) so this only tells me that you are unable to determine
> the important keywords- which is a basic thing in online marketing.
From what I can see of volume as far as 'search engine optimization'
vs 'SEO' is concerned, the long-tail query ran at exactly 2.4% of the
acronym in July.
But here you've really put your finger on a hell of a point.
Now I cannot say that SEO or Search Engine Optimisation are part of
our keyword-set or ever were, so I wasn't aware of the exact figures
until I just went looking on your prompting. We used to call it 'web
promotion' back in the late 90s, and oddly enough, that's a term which
still draws a whole lot more searches than 'Search Engine
Optimization' even to this day.
But [BIG BUTT]... -->>THOROUGH Keyword research<<-- should be one of
the first and most important tasks when tackling any site promotion
campaign.
If you cannot conduct decent keyword research, then your entire
approach to promotion is founded on thin air & guesses**.
Cheers
Sasch
**What's the betting that 'Thumbs-Up Ash' will now incorporate a
statement like that into his seminar? ;-)
> > Listing major companies as clients is a better indicator of sales
> > prowess than SEO skills.
> The rankings of major companies have rarely do anything with SEO
> (except site cleanup years ago), it comes from the whole communication
> strategy of the companies.
> > • There are no spelling or grammatical errors on their website.
> It only shows that you can pay somebody to check spelling. And usually
> serious companies can afford this luxury.
> > • They do not resort to email spamming to get your attention.
> In fact this has nothing to do with the quality of service. It's about
> business etchics that the company respect the rules or not. And
> probably you do not want to hire personal defence services from a
> serial killer.
> > • The owner participates in meaningful discussions at quality SEO
> > forums.
> There are no quality SEO forums. There are some good technical help
> forums, like this. Not called "SEO help group" but "webamsters help
> group".
> > • They have clients in ultra-competitive niches with keyphrases such
> > as “debt consolidation”, or phrases targeting Florida or Las Vegas.
> "debt consolidation" has approximataly 1/5 of search volume of "seo"
> in English language areas according to Google trends, so it is really
> far away to be considered as "ultra compatitive".
> > • The owner speaks at public seminars or writes for leading
> > publications (about SEO topics).
> Popularity is not about knowledge. For me it's a very bad reputation
> if somebody talks about SEO at all.
> > • Their website ranks high for “search engine optimization” and
> > related keyphrases.
> For "search engine optimization" is not a really popular search term
> (1/50 of SEO) so this only tells me that you are unable to determine
> the important keywords- which is a basic thing in online marketing.
> On Aug 23, 3:14 pm, trainSEM wrote:
> > Finding a talented search engine optimiser is difficult. Yes, there
> > are hundreds of individuals and companies who claim to offer SEO
> > services. Sadly, their portfolios do not show evidence of anything
> > beyond basic knowledge of SEO. Such service providers survive because
> > many businesses don’t have much competition for their keyphrases and
> > they rank high with minimal effort.
> > Listing major companies as clients is a better indicator of sales
> > prowess than SEO skills. Appearing in lists of “Top 10 SEO companies”
> > means they probably advertise on those websites – once they stop
> > advertising, they mysteriously drop off the top 10 list.
> > Here are some clues to help you find a good operator:
> > • The owner’s name and contact details are on their website.
> > • There are no spelling or grammatical errors on their website.
> > • They do not resort to email spamming to get your attention.
> > • The owner participates in meaningful discussions at quality SEO
> > forums.
> > • The owner speaks at public seminars or writes for leading
> > publications (about SEO topics).
> > • They have clients in ultra-competitive niches with keyphrases such
> > as “debt consolidation”, or phrases targeting Florida or Las Vegas.
> > • Their website ranks high for “search engine optimization” and
> > related keyphrases.- Hide quoted text -
> > > • There are no spelling or grammatical errors on their website.
> > It only shows that you can pay somebody to check spelling. And usually
> > serious companies can afford this luxury.
> Actually... one very memorable client back in the early days did
> extremely well selling 'Smoked Hadock', because apparently the general
> public didn't know how to spell properly either. Occasionally, the
> whole spelling thing can work in your favour.
> > > • Their website ranks high for “search engine optimization” and
> > > related keyphrases.
> > For "search engine optimization" is not a really popular search term
> > (1/50 of SEO) so this only tells me that you are unable to determine
> > the important keywords- which is a basic thing in online marketing.
> From what I can see of volume as far as 'search engine optimization'
> vs 'SEO' is concerned, the long-tail query ran at exactly 2.4% of the
> acronym in July.
> But here you've really put your finger on a hell of a point.
> Now I cannot say that SEO or Search Engine Optimisation are part of
> our keyword-set or ever were, so I wasn't aware of the exact figures
> until I just went looking on your prompting. We used to call it 'web
> promotion' back in the late 90s, and oddly enough, that's a term which
> still draws a whole lot more searches than 'Search Engine
> Optimization' even to this day.
> But [BIG BUTT]... -->>THOROUGH Keyword research<<-- should be one of
> the first and most important tasks when tackling any site promotion
> campaign.
> If you cannot conduct decent keyword research, then your entire
> approach to promotion is founded on thin air & guesses**.
> Cheers
> Sasch
> **What's the betting that 'Thumbs-Up Ash' will now incorporate a
> statement like that into his seminar? ;-)
> On Aug 24, 3:51 am, BBdeath wrote:
> > > Listing major companies as clients is a better indicator of sales
> > > prowess than SEO skills.
> > The rankings of major companies have rarely do anything with SEO
> > (except site cleanup years ago), it comes from the whole communication
> > strategy of the companies.
> > > • There are no spelling or grammatical errors on their website.
> > It only shows that you can pay somebody to check spelling. And usually
> > serious companies can afford this luxury.
> > > • They do not resort to email spamming to get your attention.
> > In fact this has nothing to do with the quality of service. It's about
> > business etchics that the company respect the rules or not. And
> > probably you do not want to hire personal defence services from a
> > serial killer.
> > > • The owner participates in meaningful discussions at quality SEO
> > > forums.
> > There are no quality SEO forums. There are some good technical help
> > forums, like this. Not called "SEO help group" but "webamsters help
> > group".
> > > • They have clients in ultra-competitive niches with keyphrases such
> > > as “debt consolidation”, or phrases targeting Florida or Las Vegas.
> > "debt consolidation" has approximataly 1/5 of search volume of "seo"
> > in English language areas according to Google trends, so it is really
> > far away to be considered as "ultra compatitive".
> > > • The owner speaks at public seminars or writes for leading
> > > publications (about SEO topics).
> > Popularity is not about knowledge. For me it's a very bad reputation
> > if somebody talks about SEO at all.
> > > • Their website ranks high for “search engine optimization” and
> > > related keyphrases.
> > For "search engine optimization" is not a really popular search term
> > (1/50 of SEO) so this only tells me that you are unable to determine
> > the important keywords- which is a basic thing in online marketing.
> > On Aug 23, 3:14 pm, trainSEM wrote:
> > > Finding a talented search engine optimiser is difficult. Yes, there
> > > are hundreds of individuals and companies who claim to offer SEO
> > > services. Sadly, their portfolios do not show evidence of anything
> > > beyond basic knowledge of SEO. Such service providers survive because
> > > many businesses don’t have much competition for their keyphrases and
> > > they rank high with minimal effort.
> > > Listing major companies as clients is a better indicator of sales
> > > prowess than SEO skills. Appearing in lists of “Top 10 SEO companies”
> > > means they probably advertise on those websites – once they stop
> > > advertising, they mysteriously drop off the top 10 list.
> > > Here are some clues to help you find a good operator:
> > > • The owner’s name and contact details are on their website.
> > > • There are no spelling or grammatical errors on their website.
> > > • They do not resort to email spamming to get your attention.
> > > • The owner participates in meaningful discussions at quality SEO
> > > forums.
> > > • The owner speaks at public seminars or writes for leading
> > > publications (about SEO topics).
> > > • They have clients in ultra-competitive niches with keyphrases such
> > > as “debt consolidation”, or phrases targeting Florida or Las Vegas.
> > > • Their website ranks high for “search engine optimization” and
> > > related keyphrases.- Hide quoted text -
> > They have clients in ultra-competitive niches with keyphrases
> > such as “debt consolidation”, or phrases targeting Florida or
> > Las Vegas."
> > The majority of such websites are scams or at least very lame IMO.
> I rather think the point was that an SEO firm who can effectively &
> successfully promote a client's site in cut-throat sectors such as
> "debt consolidation" would be very capable in its field, and would
> therefore be a better choice than one which could only show success
> promoting "cowboy boots for six-toed cowboys". :-D
> Nevertheless... Ash... there is something deeply unsettling about the
> way you 'thumb up' in your mugshot. ;-)
> On Aug 24, 12:14 am, webado wrote:
> > What's this got to do with anything?
> > " They have clients in ultra-competitive niches with keyphrases
> > such
> > as “debt consolidation”, or phrases targeting Florida or Las Vegas."
> > The majority of such websites are scams or at least very lame IMO. If
> > I were to be in any way approached by one of those I'd refuse to take
> > them on for anything (though I generally don't even do SEO, just site
> > cleanups and tune-ups which may eventually give better results if the
> > content is worthy in the first place - but I won't usually write their
> > content for them). I'd not take them on and I'd even tell them get out
> > and do something more worthwhile, the web doesn't need another site of
> > this nature, does it?
> > On Aug 23, 10:14 am, trainSEM wrote:
> > > Finding a talented search engine optimiser is difficult. Yes, there
> > > are hundreds of individuals and companies who claim to offer SEO
> > > services. Sadly, their portfolios do not show evidence of anything
> > > beyond basic knowledge of SEO. Such service providers survive because
> > > many businesses don’t have much competition for their keyphrases and
> > > they rank high with minimal effort.
> > > Listing major companies as clients is a better indicator of sales
> > > prowess than SEO skills. Appearing in lists of “Top 10 SEO companies”
> > > means they probably advertise on those websites – once they stop
> > > advertising, they mysteriously drop off the top 10 list.
> > > Here are some clues to help you find a good operator:
> > > • The owner’s name and contact details are on their website.
> > > • There are no spelling or grammatical errors on their website.
> > > • They do not resort to email spamming to get your attention.
> > > • The owner participates in meaningful discussions at quality SEO
> > > forums.
> > > • The owner speaks at public seminars or writes for leading
> > > publications (about SEO topics).
> > > • They have clients in ultra-competitive niches with keyphrases such
> > > as “debt consolidation”, or phrases targeting Florida or Las Vegas.
> > > • Their website ranks high for “search engine optimization” and
> > > related keyphrases.- Hide quoted text -
> > They have clients in ultra-competitive niches with keyphrases
> > such as “debt consolidation”, or phrases targeting Florida or
> > Las Vegas."
> > The majority of such websites are scams or at least very lame IMO.
> I rather think the point was that an SEO firm who can effectively &
> successfully promote a client's site in cut-throat sectors such as
> "debt consolidation" would be very capable in its field, and would
> therefore be a better choice than one which could only show success
> promoting "cowboy boots for six-toed cowboys". :-D
> Nevertheless... Ash... there is something deeply unsettling about the
> way you 'thumb up' in your mugshot. ;-)
> On Aug 24, 12:14 am, webado wrote:
> > What's this got to do with anything?
> > " They have clients in ultra-competitive niches with keyphrases
> > such
> > as “debt consolidation”, or phrases targeting Florida or Las Vegas."
> > The majority of such websites are scams or at least very lame IMO. If
> > I were to be in any way approached by one of those I'd refuse to take
> > them on for anything (though I generally don't even do SEO, just site
> > cleanups and tune-ups which may eventually give better results if the
> > content is worthy in the first place - but I won't usually write their
> > content for them). I'd not take them on and I'd even tell them get out
> > and do something more worthwhile, the web doesn't need another site of
> > this nature, does it?
> > On Aug 23, 10:14 am, trainSEM wrote:
> > > Finding a talented search engine optimiser is difficult. Yes, there
> > > are hundreds of individuals and companies who claim to offer SEO
> > > services. Sadly, their portfolios do not show evidence of anything
> > > beyond basic knowledge of SEO. Such service providers survive because
> > > many businesses don’t have much competition for their keyphrases and
> > > they rank high with minimal effort.
> > > Listing major companies as clients is a better indicator of sales
> > > prowess than SEO skills. Appearing in lists of “Top 10 SEO companies”
> > > means they probably advertise on those websites – once they stop
> > > advertising, they mysteriously drop off the top 10 list.
> > > Here are some clues to help you find a good operator:
> > > • The owner’s name and contact details are on their website.
> > > • There are no spelling or grammatical errors on their website.
> > > • They do not resort to email spamming to get your attention.
> > > • The owner participates in meaningful discussions at quality SEO
> > > forums.
> > > • The owner speaks at public seminars or writes for leading
> > > publications (about SEO topics).
> > > • They have clients in ultra-competitive niches with keyphrases such
> > > as “debt consolidation”, or phrases targeting Florida or Las Vegas.
> > > • Their website ranks high for “search engine optimization” and
> > > related keyphrases.- Hide quoted text -
